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Kyawa
Premium
join:2006-01-26
Middletown, MD

1 edit

LAN to WAN Stability

I have a LAN to WAN setup (see link below) at a friends coffee shop. The primary router is connected to the modem via the WAN port. In the LAN ports, I have a run to another router's WAN port and then 2 WRT54Gs set up as access points. Since day one, the access points disconnect from the network requiring reboot of all the devices. Any advice as to what I can do to improve stability? Thanks

»www6.nohold.net/Cisco2/ukp.aspx?···eid=3733


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..
See if I got this right...

ROUTER1 WAN->ISP.
ROUTER1 LAN->ROUTER2 WAN
ROUTER2 LAN -> AP1,AP2 (unclear)

Is this for the business to use ROUTER1 and wireless customers to connect to AP1/AP2? What I assumed makes sense for basic isolation.

Is ROUTER2 wireless and part of the customer network? It might help to identify the wired-only routers.

Does "the access points disconnect from the network" mean wireless clients loose internet access? Do they show no connection to the AP?

Out of this comes lots of other questions like addresses and DHCP server settings. The routers-as-APs should have their DHCP servers turned OFF, for example.

Also, confirm all is stock Linksys firmware. There's a convenient mock-up of WRT54G that might come in handy: »ui.linksys.com/files/WRT54G/


gdio53

join:2000-07-30
Feeding Hills, MA
Router 1 LAN should be connected to ROUTER2 LAN. ROUTER2, and all other routers, should be configured for Bridge mode.

Only the router connected to the ISP should be on the WAN port.


Kyawa
Premium
join:2006-01-26
Middletown, MD
reply to Kyawa
No. router 1 (192.168.2.210) is the public network and the APs are connected to it. DHCP is also enabled. Router 2 (192.168.1.210) is the private network. They are connected from router 2 WAN to router 1 LAN. This prevents public users from breaching into the private subnet. It's pretty basic but I just can't figure out why the wireless is so unstable.

To summarize:

ISP -> Router 1 WAN port
Router 2 WAN port -> Router LAN port
APs to Router 1 LAN ports

Thanks for the replies so far.


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..
Then the APs are the focus. Are they properly set to be AP-only? This means...

These Router-as-APs better both have DHCP servers turned OFF. Wireless clients should see ROUTER1 as their DHCP server and gateway. This is usually in any setup to use a router as an AP. I'll guess this is the problem.

These APs should be at a 192.168.2.(something unique) address. It's actually not gospel but far easier to get to their setup pages.

You probably cannot turn OFF the WAN on these simple routers. To keep them "happy" I'd set WAN to a meaningless static IP (192.168.4.2 for example, with gateway and DNS to 192.168.4.1). This keeps them from constantly trying to get a WAN connection.

One important difference where to look: Do the wireless clients loose AP connection OR is AP connection ok but no internet?


Kyawa
Premium
join:2006-01-26
Middletown, MD
reply to Kyawa
The APs lose internet connection. Additional info:

Router 1: 192.168.2.210
255.255.255.0
WAN IP: Static IP from Verizon
DHCP enabled (start at 100; 75 total)

AP1:192.168.2.200
AP2: 192.168.2.199
Both have DHCP disabled

Router 2: 192.168.1.210
255.255.255.0
WAN IP: 192.168.2.222
255.255.255.0
Gateway: 192.168.2.210
DHCP disabled

Thanks Bill.


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..

2 edits
It looks perfect. I invite anyone to find something I missed.

So it does seem to be those APs failing to bridge properly-connected wireless clients to Router1. See if we can narrow anything down...

How often are you talking? Every hour? week?

Does it get worse with volume? That is, with more connections?

Try a little test. Run only 1 AP and see if the problem disappears.

I'd look before and during a bad condition right at a client (I'm assuming a Windows client below). It takes a commandline (bold commands), though...

What does ipconfig /all show before and after? You just may see something unexpected that could be a big clue.

Can it ping 192.168.2.199? (AP2)
Can it ping 192.168.2.200? (AP1)
Can it ping 192.168.2.210? (ROUTER1 LAN)
Can it ping 192.168.2.222? (ROUTER2 WAN)
Does it happen to be connected to AP1 or AP2 at this time?

Loss of connectivity can happen with only a DNS issue. If you know how to confirm this, great, otherwise I'm not sure the best way to suggest. How are you with commandline?

EDIT: Are both APs the same SSID? Are they secured or open?


Kyawa
Premium
join:2006-01-26
Middletown, MD
The problem is that I live 2 hours from there. I usually connect remotely via Jump or PC Anywhere to the host PC to try to figure things out. The APs are on different floors so they have different SSIDs. The building has concrete floors so there isn't much bleed.

I appreciate the help. I guess when I'm up there next time, I should plan to spend some time there to see if I can run some tests. Curiously, what are we looking for with ipconfig /all? Thanks again, Bill.


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..
ipconfig /all dumps out the network details. Basic things like IP, gateway, DNS but also the DHCP server being used. Something unexpected can be a big clue.

There's always the possibility the WRT54Gs are choking on traffic or connection volume, too. Many versions of the WRT54G exist and they can vary in quality all over the map. Around 2006 they took a dive IMHO. This is when they went from a solid Linux-based firmware to home-grown "almost good enough" firmware. This started with version 5 (a sticker on the bottom will say the version).

It's conceivable changing their firmware could be the answer. Be sure and note this when you can.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.


Kyawa
Premium
join:2006-01-26
Middletown, MD
Any recommendations on just replacing the APs?

scubascythan

join:2005-05-14
reply to Kyawa
Good chance it's just the stock firmware getting overwhelmed. Flash it DD-WRT. The newer versions need special steps like using Vxworks killer and aren't supported by Tomato.

It doesn't mention this since you say you reboot all devices on your network but when the wireless goes down does your private network 192.168.1.* still connect to the internet? If it doesn't then the cause could be your primary router also being overwhelmed (eg too many connections from users using p2p).


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..

2 edits
reply to Kyawa
said by Kyawa:

Any recommendations on just replacing the APs?

I was hoping someone might jump in (hint hint).

I'm running OpenWrt firmware on older Linksys hardware and if not for power outages they would just go and go for years and years, I'm sure.

But frankly, Linksys/Cisco is forever off my radar: »Linksys firmware upgrade for Wi-Fi routers angers some users I've been looking at the Netgear WNDR3700 with OpenWrt.

public

join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA
reply to Kyawa
said by Kyawa:

Any recommendations on just replacing the APs?

You can do all that with WRT54G loaded with ddwrt using port based vlans.
Get wrt54g v2-4, or wrt54gs v1-3.


Kyawa
Premium
join:2006-01-26
Middletown, MD
reply to Kyawa
I think my problem is smart phones. Just about everyone who walks into the coffee shop to connect automatically. I need some kind of agreement page or something so these phones don't connect by default. Is this possible on Linksys stuff.


mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON
The OLD technology you are using [primary router and your AP's] cannot keep up with today's demanding networked gear --- smart-phones, ipads, Laptops iPods etc. which is the reason that your Coffee shop is having compounding stability issues.

The Owner of the Coffee Shop needs to make an investment in modern day technology that can provides his clients with good service.

What's the SQ Footage of the Coffee Shop, how is it laid out, and what kind of Internet connection is provided AND how many patrons does the Coffee Shop service requiring access to the Internet during the course of its business hours? You need to determine the rate of concurrency [max number of users actively using the network at any given point in time]

For Business Class Router that can handle volume traffic based on to days type of gear without paying inflated prices look at the ZyXEL ZyWALL USG line starting at the USG 300 [$ 1K] and then add as many as 4 AP's like the Netgear WNDR4500 [$150 each] in AP mode. If the Coffee Shop is a simple layout you may not need more than 1 AP's like the WNDR4500.
--
David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business


Kyawa
Premium
join:2006-01-26
Middletown, MD
Thanks. I agree 100%. I had bought a Cisco RV180 and some Unifi APs but I returned them after participating in each of the respective forums. There seems to be a lot of issues with each device. I'm two hours from the coffee shop and although there are issues with the current setuo, it works and is easy to resolve the issues by rebooting. The owner is willing to spend the $$ but I need to make sure it's stable and also something I can troubleshoot remotely. Lastly, the new setup has to isolate the public wifi from the private networks. The layout is pretty basic in that I think it only needs one AP per floor.

I'll check out the stuff you mention. Do you use this stuff?

Thanks


mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON
said by Kyawa:

Do you use this stuff?

Yes I have significant experience with the gear I suggest or recommend. I normally will not express views on gear that I have no Direct experience with.

BTW, the only caveats I have with the USG line is the object oriented administrative GUI ... Many layers and not a trivial exercise to learn ... But once learned everything becomes very easy when wholesale changes need to be implemented. The ZyXEL support located in California are very helpful in making the learning curve much easier ... First class phone support based on my experience and with the USG line that support is FREE of charge.
--
David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business


Kyawa
Premium
join:2006-01-26
Middletown, MD
What about the licenses? Obviously we can't buy a license for everyone that comes in the coffee shop.


mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON

3 edits
There are no licenses needed for patrons of the coffee shop. The only licenses that may need to be purchased asumming more than 2 SSL LICENSES are used for remote [support] connectivity otherwise no other licenses are needed. 2 SSL licenses are included. If IPSEC IS USED OR L2TP are used all that is included for many - I do not remember how many sessions but MANY. Also all firmware updates are free of charges .... The warranty is for 5 years parts and labour. And like I mentioned before ZyXEL support will help to configure the gear to suite the need as a way to make the administrative GUI much easier to understand due to its OBJECT oriented architecture.

USG Comparison thread


Kyawa
Premium
join:2006-01-26
Middletown, MD
Good thread. What is the real significance of the max number of users? Thanks


mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON
said by Kyawa:

Good thread. What is the real significance of the max number of users? Thanks

The CPU IS tuned to support a fixed number of users .... For example in a business office environment the USG 300 should be capable of easily handling 100 concurrent users doing the typical office type of stuff.


Kyawa
Premium
join:2006-01-26
Middletown, MD
So I'm looking at the 200. What happens if a 51st user connects? Also, how do I terminate connections (leases) particularly phones?


mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON
Things will slow down commensurately. Through the GUI you can disconnect the user or through a CLI interface you can do the same.


Kyawa
Premium
join:2006-01-26
Middletown, MD
It needs to happen automatically. Right now, I have short lease times (5 min) set up.


mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON
Yes you can set short term leases ..... Go to te ZyXEL site and download the User manual for the model of interest and find out the answers to most of your questions.


Kyawa
Premium
join:2006-01-26
Middletown, MD
Thanks. I'm looking at the Mikrotik stuff as well.