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EGeezer
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join:2002-08-04
Midwest

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Re: Assange makes 1st public appearance in 2 months

From what I just heard on BBC in the last few minutes, the demand from Assange and the Ecuadorian embassy is that he would be willing to stand trial in Sweden for the sexual assault charges. However, the condition they are insisting on is that his waiver of extradition to Sweden will not result in his extradition from Sweden to any third party nation (i.e. the US).

I would guess that at the present time Sweden would almost immediately send Assange to the US the moment a firm commitment is made by the US to not seek the death penalty for him. The immediate question is now whether Sweden wants Assange enough for its own trials to meet the non-extradition condition.
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FF4m3
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Re: Assange makes 1st public appearance in 2 months

Assange has reason to fear U.S. extradition by Nicholas Wapshott:

The reason he cites for not answering sexual assault accusations against him by two women is that Sweden may extradite him to America, where he fears he will be tortured and put to death.

His account of the law is both misleading and inaccurate. Britain could as easily extradite Assange to the U.S. as to Sweden, but it can't. Like the rest of Europe, Britain may not deliver to America a criminal suspected of a capital crime - spying, in Assange's case -- because America has the death penalty. The same is true of Sweden. But his suggestion that if America could capture him he would be tortured and killed is plausible. And any who doubt his seemingly absurd claim should acquaint themselves with the wretched plight of United States Army Private First Class Bradley Manning.

President Obama, a Harvard-trained lawyer, condoned the Pentagon's treatment of Manning as "appropriate and meeting our basic standards." He later followed Richard Nixon's legal calumny over Charles Manson by pronouncing Manning guilty as charged, even though he still awaits trial. While Assange is protected by European laws from being sent to America, where he might be killed in cold blood by the state, Manning may still be put to death. So long as Assange is on the run, the world will be reminded that America, once a benign republic proudly defending the world's freedoms, has slipped in the last 10 years into a state of shame where torture is excused and executions defended by even the most liberal of public figures. I wonder what "The Greatest Generation" would think?

FF4m3

FF4m3

Anon

The Meaning of Assange’s Asylum:

Even hours before it was announced, Ecuador’s decision to grant asylum to Assange because of the lack of international guarantees of due process of law for the founder of Wikileaks, had the effect of generating an overreaction by the government of Great Britain, which bypassed diplomatic law and threatened to storm the embassy of Ecuador in London to arrest Assange. This aggressive outburst by Britain against Latin America made in the long shadow of the Falklands invasion was immediately labeled as colonialism. It has been a catalyst to unite all countries of the region around Ecuador.

The government of President Rafael Correa has received the backing of the two most powerful Latin American organizations, ALBA and UNASUR. In at least one of these institutions are Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, Venezuela, Paraguay, Uruguay, Chile, Peru, as well as other countries in the region. In advance of scheduled meetings of both organizations this weekend in Guayaquil to generate a statement of solidarity with Ecuador, several foreign ministers in Latin America have already expressed their opposition to Britain’s threat to enter the embassy of Ecuador by force.

The US stated yet again that it will not intervene in the case of Julian Assange. Yet, the US government’s repetition of “we are not involved” fails to convince. Too many statements by U.S. lawmakers and officials denouncing WikiLeaks and threatening Assange with imprisonment for life and even the death penalty have been widely disseminated in the world press. The fundamental reason that attorneys for Julian Assange believe their client cannot accept extradition to Sweden is because from there Assange will be almost certainly delivered to the U.S. That the U.S. has initiated a secret grand jury proceeding to indict Assange for crimes including espionage and treason is not mere speculation.

According to Assange’s lawyer, Michael Ratner, President Emeritus of the internationally recognized Center for Constitutional Rights, a secret grand jury in Alexandria, Virginia, was convened to investigate violations of the Espionage Act, where the grand jury received testimony including Twitter messages related to Assange and WikiLeaks. An FBI agent who was a witness in the case of detained soldier Bradley Manning has stated that the “founders, owners and managers” WikiLeaks were under investigation. Ratner also noted that the FBI has compiled a dossier of 42,135 pages pertaining to Assange.

In this context, Assange’s fears of being extradited, imprisoned and deprived of any right to a fair defense in the U.S. should be considered well-founded and reasonable. And in the same way, the decision to grant asylum by Ecuador should be considered a humanitarian decision viewed within the legal framework of international law governed by the Vienna Convention.


From this context, there arises a unique situation in which a Latin American country now stands as a defender of the human rights of an individual against the will of two European countries, Britain and Sweden, who refuse to give assurances that Assange will not be extradited to the United States. What irony that a small nation which until recently was considered a mere “banana republic” today openly protects a major world icon of freedom of expression from persecution by United States and its allies.

Frodo
join:2006-05-05

Frodo

Member

said by FF4m3 :

From this context, there arises a unique situation in which a Latin American country now stands as a defender of the human rights of an individual against the will of two European countries, Britain and Sweden, who refuse to give assurances that Assange will not be extradited to the United States.

Britain and Sweden needs to explain that. Summarizing what I've learned over the last couple of days, there is a Rule of Specialty that is used in extradition cases that restricts any extraditions to the charges being listed as the reason. I've found arrangements that restrict extraditions to 3rd countries, so these kind of arrangements are not unheard of, or unprecedented.

So Britain and Sweden need to be called upon to explain why it is that they feel that justice for the alleged crime victims in Sweden should be contingent on an ability to have Assange extradited to the US. If the allegations in Sweden is the purpose of the extradition, then why should justice be delayed? Inquiring minds want to know. Ecuador simply wants guarantees in this case that Britain won't waive the rule of specialty, and that Sweden will abide by the rule.

And, as far as Assange is concerned, he best stay under Ecuador's protection until the Manning case has been tried, because then a lot of the evidence will be out there. Then he'll be in a better position to assess the situation.

sidharth gau
@bsnl.in

sidharth gau to The Snowman

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»truthdive.com/2012/08/21 ··· ion.html

goalieskates
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join:2004-09-12
land of big

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said by EGeezer:

From what I just heard on BBC in the last few minutes, the demand from Assange and the Ecuadorian embassy is that he would be willing to stand trial in Sweden for the sexual assault charges. However, the condition they are insisting on is that his waiver of extradition to Sweden will not result in his extradition from Sweden to any third party nation (i.e. the US).

I would guess that at the present time Sweden would almost immediately send Assange to the US the moment a firm commitment is made by the US to not seek the death penalty for him. The immediate question is now whether Sweden wants Assange enough for its own trials to meet the non-extradition condition.

You can guess all you want, of course. But the basic point is, if Assange hadn't done enough to at least be accused of rape, and that accusation hadn't had enough substance that it was subsequently acted upon in a legal fashion, we'd be having an entirely different discussion.

He's really in no position to make demands, and he did it to himself.

EGeezer
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join:2002-08-04
Midwest

EGeezer

Premium Member

said by goalieskates:

... he did it to himself.

That depends on whether or not he's guilty of the charges.

And yes, I will guess all I want - just like you're guessing he "did it to himself".

AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
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join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ

AVD

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I assume he is innocent unless proven guilty in Sweden as he is in the US.

He did nothing inherently wrong by shacking up with a woman, problem is she says he forced her to do thing she didn't want to do. Hopefully he will answer to these serious allegations in a Swedish court of law (or whatever due process they have) and justice will be served.

FF4m3
@bhn.net

FF4m3 to The Snowman

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to The Snowman
Don't lose sight of why the US is out to get Julian Assange:

Ecuador is pressing for a deal that offers justice to Assange's accusers – and essential protection for whistleblowers

Can anyone seriously believe the dispute would have gone global, or that the British government would have made its asinine threat to suspend the Ecuadorean embassy's diplomatic status and enter it by force, or that scores of police would have surrounded the building, swarming up and down the fire escape and guarding every window, if it was all about one man wanted for questioning over sex crime allegations in Stockholm?

The US interest in deterring others from following the WikiLeaks path is obvious. And it would be bizarre to expect a state which over the past decade has kidnapped, tortured and illegally incarcerated its enemies, real or imagined, on a global scale – and continues to do so under President Barack Obama – to walk away from what Hillary Clinton described as an "attack on the international community".
In the meantime, the US authorities are presumably banking on seeing Assange further discredited in Sweden.

None of that should detract from the seriousness of the rape allegations made against Assange, for which he should clearly answer and, if charges are brought, stand trial. The question is how to achieve justice for the women involved while protecting Assange (and other whistleblowers) from punitive extradition to a legal system that could potentially land him in a US prison cell for decades.

But why, Assange's critics charge, would he be more likely to be extradited to the US from Sweden than from Britain, Washington's patsy, notorious for its one-sided extradition arrangements. There are specific risks in Sweden – for example, its fast-track "temporary surrender" extradition agreement it has with the US. But the real point is that Assange is in danger of extradition in both countries – which is why Ecuador was right to offer him protection.

The solution is obvious. It's the one that Ecuador is proposing – and that London and Stockholm are resisting. If the Swedish government pledged to block the extradition of Assange to the US for any WikiLeaks-related offence (which it has the power to do) – and Britain agreed not to sanction extradition to a third country once Swedish proceedings are over – then justice could be served. But with loyalty to the US on the line, Assange shouldn't expect to leave the embassy any time soon.

US must give Assange guarantee - Sweden:

Sweden says it is up to Washington to give WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, who fears the US wants to prosecute him for divulging state secrets, the guarantees he has sought from Stockholm.

If Sweden were to receive an extradition request from a country that practices capital punishment, such as the US, 'guarantees must come from the other state (requesting extradition) that ... the death penalty will not be handed down or carried out,' Swedish justice ministry adviser Per Hedvall told AFP.

'The guarantees do not come from our side, they have to come from the other end,' he said.

Swedish law and the European human rights convention ratified by Sweden ban extradition of a defendant to a country where he could face the death penalty.

Hedvall refused to speak about Assange's case in particular and stressed his remarks regarded Swedish legislation in general.

He said that when an extradition request is issued for a crime that doesn't carry the death penalty, 'each case is reviewed based on the legislation in that individual case', but then 'Swedish legislation does not provide for guarantees.'


Name Game
Premium Member
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI

Name Game to OZO

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to OZO
said by OZO:

To complain about bureaucracy go to the same bureaucracy and expect something to be changed?

Here is an example why.... this hit the news today..but the whistleblower's lawsuit was filed in 2009 and sealed..opened now on 20Aug2012

DOJ sues Gallup polling firm

Justice Department officials joined a whistle blower lawsuit and alleged that The Gallup Organization, a major polling firm, intentionally overestimated the amount of time it would take to complete a job for the government and was paid accordingly.

“Contractors who do business with the federal government must honor their obligations to provide honest services and products,” said U.S. Attorney Ronald C. Machen Jr. in a statement on the lawsuit. “Working with relators and federal investigators, we will do all that we can to act against those who illegitimately bill the American taxpayers.”

»washingtonexaminer.com/d ··· W1mzCz8A

You can read the lawsuits here...
»legaltimes.typepad.com/b ··· ing.html

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1 to FF4m3

Premium Member

to FF4m3
said by FF4m3 :

quote:
He said that when an extradition request is issued for a crime that doesn't carry the death penalty, 'each case is reviewed based on the legislation in that individual case', but then 'Swedish legislation does not provide for guarantees.'

This is what some of us have been saying, and which puts the lie to Assange's and Ecuador's claims.

Sweden would already not extradite a possible death penalty charge. And they would need to have an extradition request made before ruling on it in any case. As would any Country. Blanket hypothetical immunity from extradition is an invention.

norwegian
Premium Member
join:2005-02-15
Outback

1 edit

norwegian

Premium Member

said by Ian1 See Profile
Blanket hypothetical immunity from extradition is an invention.

May I elaborate with some more hypothetical immunity invention then......

The silence of the US is scary, a subject they are so vocal on to the point Obama has tripled gaol for suspected 'terrorist types' over predecesors.

Does a site publishing info, no different from a newspaper or tv news doing the same need to be bought to justice? Sure the initial leak needs to be dealt with, but a foreigner from another country as a third party?

I think we need to look at the whole picture here, not of the man. This will set precedence for humans and mankind going forward. Whether Assange is guilty or not really is not important in this case, and is a personal item he needs to deal with, and by all substance, neither him or Equator are deigning due process, just assurances....simple request really.

FF4m3
@bhn.net

FF4m3 to Ian1

Anon

to Ian1
said by Ian1:

said by FF4m3 :

quote:
He said that when an extradition request is issued for a crime that doesn't carry the death penalty, 'each case is reviewed based on the legislation in that individual case', but then 'Swedish legislation does not provide for guarantees.'

This is what some of us have been saying, and which puts the lie to Assange's and Ecuador's claims.

Sweden has a fast-track "temporary surrender" extradition agreement with the US and says that any promises must come from the US (let the finger-pointing begin). Yet, as previously posted articles demonstrate, the US cannot necessarily be trusted based on its past and current real world actions. Methinks that Assange's and Ecuador's justified lack of trust of other governments will necessitate Assange's residing in the embassy for quite some time.
FF4m3

FF4m3 to norwegian

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to norwegian
said by norwegian:

I think we need to look at the whole picture here, not of the man. This will set precedence for humans and mankind going forward.

Right.

To paraphrase -

The question is how to achieve justice while protecting press freedom and whistleblowers from punitive actions, including extradition.

Ian1
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said by norwegian:

....simple request really.

Not to me. I couldn't follow what you were driving at...
Frodo
join:2006-05-05

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to The Snowman
Here's a little legalese from the Swedish perspective.

»klamberg.blogspot.com/20 ··· den.html

He makes a pretty convincing case that Assange couldn't be extradited. Then, he issued an update that "Some argue that it can be used to circumvent all the requirements that I describe above".

So no one really knows. But, from a practical viewpoint, Assange would have to be nuts to expose himself to the slightest possibility of extradition to the US, especially before the Manning trial had concluded. I think that there is the possibility that Manning was subjected to duress in part, to induce him to incriminate Assange, possibly falsely. Whether or not that happened might make itself apparent in the Manning trial.

Blackbird
Built for Speed
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join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN

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said by norwegian:

... I think we need to look at the whole picture here, not of the man. This will set precedence for humans and mankind going forward. Whether Assange is guilty or not really is not important in this case, and is a personal item he needs to deal with, and by all substance, neither him or Equator are deigning due process, just assurances....simple request really.

If one looks at the "whole picture", they will see that Sweden is not in a legal position to give carte-blanche, advance disavowal of a possible extradition of Assange to the US that has not even been requested, nor charges yet filed in the US. To do so in advance of seeing what those charges, if any, might be would be inappropriate - as well as constituting an over-reach of Swedish legislation and abbrogation of a bilateral treaty between Sweden and the US. The Swedes have policies and procedures in place to fully evaluate extradition requests as they occur, including policies to block extradition when a death penalty can be invoked by the requesting nation. Just because Ecuador (or some other unrelated nations) and Assange believe an advance guarantee of immunity from US extradition would be welcome does not obligate Sweden nor relieve it of its legal obligations. That is a real-world, whole picture. What many observers fail understanding is that the extradition request by Sweden is already legally in existence, based on judicial and procedural actions in Sweden; the extradition hearings and orders in the UK have already been legally completed, appealed, and the order affirmed by judicial and procedural actions in the UK. All that legally remains is for Assange to be put on a plane to Sweden.

Now along comes Ecuador into the situation, suddenly demanding freedom-of-the-press-justified assurances from Sweden and the UK. This from a nation whose own press freedom is under serious challenge from that very same government now demanding these assurances from others. Apart from being completely disingenuous, it represents a deliberate insertion of the Ecuadorian government into something in which it has absolutely no direct interest. The "whole" picture, therefore, must include the reality that no sovereign nation will ever lightly allow a third-party nation to interject itself into something that is patently none of its business, but especially if it is in direct contradiction to that third-party nation's own domestic activities. The precedents set by acceding to such interference would last forever diplomatically.
Frodo
join:2006-05-05

Frodo to Ian1

Member

to Ian1
said by Ian1:

This is what some of us have been saying, and which puts the lie to Assange's and Ecuador's claims.

Sweden would already not extradite a possible death penalty charge. And they would need to have an extradition request made before ruling on it in any case. As would any Country. Blanket hypothetical immunity from extradition is an invention.

Let's quote again. "Blanket hypothetical immunity from extradition is an invention." I wonder who's lying here? Here's a document describing Rule of Specialty from the state department. Item #1 "1. A person extradited under this Agreement shall not be arrested, detained, tried or punished in the jurisdiction of the requesting Government for an offense other than that for which extradition has been granted nor be extradited by that Government to a third country..."

The exception is if the date of offense is subsequent to the first extradition. The date of any future extradition request is immaterial. The invention here is the theory that two countries can act in concert to circumvent specialty. Hate to inform you, but they've thought of that.

So, it is not an invention. And as far as Ecuador is concerned, they have not made an offer to release Assange in the event the death penalty is waived. Instead, they have deemed for some reason any potential prosecution of Assange as a political prosecution that meet the criteria of diplomatic asylum. That is death penalty, or no death penalty.

norwegian
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Outback

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It is a hard one, maybe it is the US that needs to provide assurance it will not proceed, but if there is legal ties between the 2 nations then who knows what rules can and/or will be bent?

Manning has been held for 800 days already, there seems no rush to process him. Maybe they want to make examples of them both.....either way the more public it becomes, the safer the general public will be for long term and the future for their future kin yet to come?

FF4m3
@bhn.net

FF4m3 to Blackbird

Anon

to Blackbird
said by Blackbird:

If one looks at the "whole picture", they will see that Sweden is not in a legal position to give carte-blanche, advance disavowal of a possible extradition of Assange to the US that has not even been requested, nor charges yet filed in the US.

AFAWK publically.
said by Blackbird:

What many observers fail understanding is that the extradition request by Sweden is already legally in existence

Actually, this is what everyone knows and has sparked the current situation.
said by Blackbird:

Now along comes Ecuador into the situation...

You have not understood the historical basis of the Ecuadorian response, coupled with support from its regional neighbors. Facts are explained in one of my previous posts.
FF4m3

FF4m3 to Frodo

Anon

to Frodo
said by Frodo:

And as far as Ecuador is concerned, they have not made an offer to release Assange in the event the death penalty is waived.

Ecuador is not holding Assange a prisoner. He is a 'guest' and is free to leave at a time of his own choosing.
said by Frodo:

Instead, they have deemed for some reason any potential prosecution of Assange

You, too, have overlooked the historically based reasons for this action as explained in my previous posts.
Frodo
join:2006-05-05

Frodo to norwegian

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to norwegian
said by norwegian:

Manning has been held for 800 days already, there seems no rush to process him.

I think they want Assange before they process Manning, so they won't be exposing their case ahead of time. That's why, if I was Assange, I would opt for the opposite and not expose myself to the slightest chance of extradition to the US until the Manning case concluded.
Frodo

Frodo to FF4m3

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to FF4m3
said by FF4m3 :

You, too, have overlooked the historically based reasons for this action as explained in my previous posts.

Just in that particular post. I did link earlier to the actual Ecuadorian position that discusses the historical issues and I agree with it, especially when it comes to specialty. But, there might have been a little good will generated with that particular Wikileaks cable. After all, they did think about it a bit before granting asylum.

AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
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Onion, NJ

AVD to Blackbird

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said by Blackbird:

said by norwegian:

... I think we need to look at the whole picture here, not of the man. This will set precedence for humans and mankind going forward. Whether Assange is guilty or not really is not important in this case, and is a personal item he needs to deal with, and by all substance, neither him or Equator are deigning due process, just assurances....simple request really.

If one looks at the "whole picture", they will see that Sweden is not in a legal position to give carte-blanche, advance disavowal of a possible extradition of Assange to the US that has not even been requested, nor charges yet filed in the US.

Its not up to Sweden, it's up to the UK not to waive certain language in the extradition treaty. If UK does not waive, JA cannot be extradited to US.