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Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to norwegian

Re: Assange makes 1st public appearance in 2 months

OK so we have the treason thing out of the way, but sure he could be charge as say an accomplice to the theft of information, if there is evidence that he aided Bradly Manning in his accused crime, but then this isn't a question about freedom of speech, its about a crime.

I think the treason thing is so tin foil heads can make this into something its not. its part of a criminal investigation, period, was a crime committed and if so is extradition required and it all has to come out in a public court (concerning Mr. Assange).

Blake
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Blackbird
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Fort Wayne, IN
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reply to norwegian
Many of your "facts" are suffering...
said by norwegian:

... Fact:
...
Mannings was the source for the story, at least 1...

This is not a fact; it is the charge made by the prosecution. Manning is innocent until proven guilty, even in military court.

said by norwegian:

... Fact:
Journalists have always used the "Freedom of speech act" to publish news.
Obama admin: People charged with serious crimes against the nation has doubled that of the last 3 US leaders.

Are you asserting that those "doubled" number of people charged with serious crimes against the nation are journalists or that journalists so charged under Obama have doubled? If not, what's your point? Also, please provide the source data for such assertions.

said by norwegian:

... Fact:
If Assange is brought to the US to face charges, it will be the one biggest turn around for freedom of speech loss the world over of recent times.

That is not a fact; it is an opinion on your part.

said by norwegian:

... Fact:
The US should not even be considering him for charges; in fact he should have no threat from the US; but that is very real threat.

This is not a fact; again, it is your opinion. Until you see the actual charges placed, neither you nor I have any idea whether such charges "should" be considered.
--
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!" -- P.Henry, 1775


norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback
reply to Link Logger
True, it could possibly be, but then that is suggestive Assange does that to gain all his info and documents. Remember he is classed as a journalist; and hence to some extent it is freedom of speech. While this is speculative is would be a question someone would ask in the natural course of the topic too.

Are journalists going to a war and documenting the deaths of innocent people as aiding? Probably not either but to whom? Some may see it differently.

I understand your view and there is no way I can say either way, I'm not there. So okay, why is Assange needed for the Manning case is my next question, whether forced or not, he did the act? Would having the 2 in the same court help clarify all of this? Depends in who's eyes, clearly a law has been broken, but did Assange hold a gun or use emotional black mail or some such nasty to gain the upper hand for the documents?

It's really no different to the case of the laptop and it's apple contents, did someone force it out of someone's hands? Where does criminal exactly fit? I gather we both understand the laws enough to not need to discuss the nitty gritty there, but it is another question too.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



Name Game
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Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7
reply to norwegian
Ok.. treason is off the table ..but the rest of it is just speculation and some is just not fact..more like supposition.
Thanks. I'll pass. I do know that the laws in Sweden he might face including the proof of. crime are far different that what we have in the US. Right now that's who wants to see him under their jurisdiction.


norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback
reply to Blackbird
said by Blackbird:

Many of your "facts" are suffering...

said by norwegian:

... Fact:
...
Mannings was the source for the story, at least 1...

This is not a fact; it is the charge made by the prosecution. Manning is innocent until proven guilty, even in military court.

Okay if that is the case, and he is presently being held for over 800 days when he could be innocent......back to I don't like the way his freedom is controlled just because he is of the forces.....we beg to differ obviously in our opinions.

said by Blackbird:

said by norwegian:

... Fact:
Journalists have always used the "Freedom of speech act" to publish news.
Obama admin: People charged with serious crimes against the nation has doubled that of the last 3 US leaders.

Are you asserting that those "doubled" number of people charged with serious crimes against the nation are journalists or that journalists so charged under Obama have doubled? If not, what's your point? Also, please provide the source data for such assertions.

There is a link here here in this topic where by the discussion came up about this in an interview, maybe reading the links posted would stop you questioning my ethics?

said by Blackbird:

said by norwegian:

... Fact:
The US should not even be considering him for charges; in fact he should have no threat from the US; but that is very real threat.

This is not a fact; again, it is your opinion. Until you see the actual charges placed, neither you nor I have any idea whether such charges "should" be considered.

Okay, I will strike out the facts and theory listing to keep the discussions clean.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



norwegian
Premium
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Outback
reply to Name Game
said by Name Game:

I do know that the laws in Sweden he might face including the proof of. crime are far different that what we have in the US. Right now that's who wants to see him under their jurisdiction.

I believe everyone wants him to face those charges.
The overall discussion and defense is of human rights and not specific to Sweden's requests. We are allowed to be innocent until proven guilty? Is that not correct?
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback

1 recommendation

reply to The Snowman
I'll give it to you gents, waking up and getting on a computer before a cuppa can hurt some times. Love the replies.



Name Game
Premium
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7
reply to norwegian
read an article not to long ago with a side by side comparision between US and Sweden of what constitutes rape and/or molestation ect..was very surprised. Human rights ???? Do you think his rights have been violated ??? Damn call the UN and get him some help.


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to norwegian
said by norwegian:

True, it could possibly be, but then that is suggestive Assange does that to gain all his info and documents. Remember he is classed as a journalist; and hence to some extent it is freedom of speech. While this is speculative is would be a question someone would ask in the natural course of the topic too.

Freedom of speech doesn't entitle someone to commit a criminal act to obtain information.

said by norwegian:

Are journalists going to a war and documenting the deaths of innocent people as aiding? Probably not either but to whom? Some may see it differently.

Journalists going to war is very different then Journalist going to a sporting event, unfortunately Journalists and the public see them as the same. In war, innocent people will die, friendly fire will happen, its bloody, its dirty, some people will behave badly as its unlike anything else in the human experience, expecting people to behave like its any other human experience is simply unrealistic. Reporting a 15 second media clip of a very selected event in a war really doesn`t do justice to war as it completely misses the context of war and of the event, but is there anyway to do that fairly?

said by norwegian:

I understand your view and there is no way I can say either way, I'm not there. So okay, why is Assange needed for the Manning case is my next question, whether forced or not, he did the act? Would having the 2 in the same court help clarify all of this? Depends in who's eyes, clearly a law has been broken, but did Assange hold a gun or use emotional black mail or some such nasty to gain the upper hand for the documents?

Perhaps he could be subpoenaed as a witness, but they wouldn't extradite him for that, especially given he is not an American citizen. If say Assange explained to Manning how to get the information out of the military or how to obtain it (ie how to hack it), then he becomes part of the crime, and would face non military charges (ie he was not a member of the military when the crime was committed so he would stand as a civilian). So if he was involved in committing a crime, so he should be charged, but otherwise he's a free man as far as the US is concerned (the Swedish investigation is between Assange and the Swedes).

So the freedom of speech thing, isn't a consideration here, as its purely a criminal investigation and will take the course deemed by the findings.

Blake
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norwegian
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join:2005-02-15
Outback
reply to Name Game
Do you have that link?


norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback
reply to Link Logger

You could be right with all that and my beliefs could all be wrong. But it is hearsay too, you presently do not have facts he did or didn't, but I am open to the fact it may happen for him long term if it is the case, all still hearsay.

Okay, so you are saying there is no way the US will ask for extradition at all for the Manning case? I know it sounds like I'm twisting your words, but you seem to have said it plainly enough. Did I read that correctly?
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback
reply to Link Logger
said by Link Logger:

[
So the freedom of speech thing, isn't a consideration here, as its purely a criminal investigation and will take the course deemed by the findings.

Blake

Freedom of speech, innocent till proven guilty all do come into this, and especially for Manning more than Assange if we are to keep on this line, I know this is about Assange, but think of poor Manning, if he is innocent, and it is all all hearsay, 800 days and no resolution, innocent or not, there is a human rights issue there. Be buggered if I'm going to sit in a gaol cell when innocent.

We have not learnt a bl00dy thing from our mistakes of the past.

Bob Dylan - Hurricane.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMaYplJI···=related


Pistols shots ring out in the barroom night
Enter Patty Valentine from the upper hall
She sees the bartender in a pool of blood
Cries out "My God they killed them all"
Here comes the story of the Hurricane
The man the authorities came to blame
For something that he never done
Put him in a prison cell but one time he could-a been
The champion of the world.

Three bodies lying there does Patty see
And another man named Bello moving around mysteriously
"I didn't do it" he says and he throws up his hands
"I was only robbing the register I hope you understand
I saw them leaving" he says and he stops
"One of us had better call up the cops"
And so Patty calls the cops
And they arrive on the scene with their red lights flashing
In the hot New Jersey night.

Meanwhile far away in another part of town
Rubin Carter and a couple of friends are driving around
Number one contender for the middleweight crown
Had no idea what kinda shit was about to go down
When a cop pulled him over to the side of the road
Just like the time before and the time before that
In Patterson that's just the way things go
If you're black you might as well not shown up on the street
'Less you wanna draw the heat.

Alfred Bello had a partner and he had a rap for the corps
Him and Arthur Dexter Bradley were just out prowling around
He said "I saw two men running out they looked like middleweights
They jumped into a white car with out-of-state plates"
And Miss Patty Valentine just nodded her head
Cop said "Wait a minute boys this one's not dead"
So they took him to the infirmary
And though this man could hardly see
They told him that he could identify the guilty men.

Four in the morning and they haul Rubin in
Take him to the hospital and they bring him upstairs
The wounded man looks up through his one dying eye
Says "Wha'd you bring him in here for ? He ain't the guy !"
Yes here comes the story of the Hurricane
The man the authorities came to blame
For something that he never done
Put in a prison cell but one time he could-a been
The champion of the world.

Four months later the ghettos are in flame
Rubin's in South America fighting for his name
While Arthur Dexter Bradley's still in the robbery game
And the cops are putting the screws to him looking for somebody to blame
"Remember that murder that happened in a bar ?"
"Remember you said you saw the getaway car?"
"You think you'd like to play ball with the law ?"
"Think it might-a been that fighter you saw running that night ?"
"Don't forget that you are white".

Arthur Dexter Bradley said "I'm really not sure"
Cops said "A boy like you could use a break
We got you for the motel job and we're talking to your friend Bello
Now you don't wanta have to go back to jail be a nice fellow
You'll be doing society a favor
That sonofabitch is brave and getting braver
We want to put his ass in stir
We want to pin this triple murder on him
He ain't no Gentleman Jim".

Rubin could take a man out with just one punch
But he never did like to talk about it all that much
It's my work he'd say and I do it for pay
And when it's over I'd just as soon go on my way
Up to some paradise
Where the trout streams flow and the air is nice
And ride a horse along a trail
But then they took him to the jailhouse
Where they try to turn a man into a mouse.

All of Rubin's cards were marked in advance
The trial was a pig-circus he never had a chance
The judge made Rubin's witnesses drunkards from the slums
To the white folks who watched he was a revolutionary bum
And to the black folks he was just a crazy nigger
No one doubted that he pulled the trigger
And though they could not produce the gun
The DA said he was the one who did the deed
And the all-white jury agreed.

Rubin Carter was falsely tried
The crime was murder 'one' guess who testified
Bello and Bradley and they both baldly lied
And the newspapers they all went along for the ride
How can the life of such a man
Be in the palm of some fool's hand ?
To see him obviously framed
Couldn't help but make me feel ashamed to live in a land
Where justice is a game.

Now all the criminals in their coats and their ties
Are free to drink martinis and watch the sun rise
While Rubin sits like Buddha in a ten-foot cell
An innocent man in a living hell
That's the story of the Hurricane
But it won't be over till they clear his name
And give him back the time he's done
Put him in a prison cell but one time he could-a been
The champion of the world.

--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



Name Game
Premium
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7
reply to norwegian
said by norwegian:

Do you have that link?

For you anything..have a great day..stick by your guns until the vegemite runs out.

»www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19333439
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norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback
Have good one yourself and thanks.
Will have a read later on when I have time for some Vegemite on toast.


FF4m3

@bhn.net
reply to The Snowman


FF4m3

@bhn.net
reply to Name Game
said by Name Game:

Ok.. treason is off the table ..

Perhaps not completely -

Government considered Assange treason charge - March 12, 2011:

The Australian government discussed the charge of treason - the most serious of federal offences and one that carries a mandatory life sentence - when it examined the WikiLeaks matter last year.

The advice, in a departmental briefing for the Attorney-General, Robert McClelland, was among several documents published yesterday by the department in response to Senate estimates questions.

It was provided by a senior officer in the Attorney-General's Department in September, after WikiLeaks published 90,000 US military reports filed during the war in Afghanistan.

In December, after WikiLeaks released 250,000 confidential US State Department cables, Mr McClelland instructed federal police to examine whether any Australian laws had been broken. The police said no Australian offence had been committed.

However, on September 20 the department gave Mr McClelland's office a briefing note that mentioned treason under the heading ''Commonwealth offences relating to unauthorised disclosure of information''. It said: ''This offence carries a penalty of imprisonment for life.''

Only the most trenchant critics of WikiLeaks have discussed treason. In November the Republican presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee said whoever gave the material to WikiLeaks was guilty of treason and ''anything less than execution is too kind a penalty''.

Sarah Palin said the founder of WikiLeaks, Julian Assange, should be ''hunted down'' and an adviser to Canada's Prime Minister called for his assassination.

Don't know if this is still an active consideration.


Ian
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ON
kudos:3
reply to norwegian
said by norwegian:

We are allowed to be innocent until proven guilty? Is that not correct?

Uh huh....And the way that's determined is charges (if deemed appropriate), and a trial. Assange is skipping out on his bail and hiding out in an Embassy to duck that process. Very simple.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


Name Game
Premium
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Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7
reply to FF4m3
did you research it then ?..in any case..Australia is not looking for him or want him to come home..so I think it is out of the equation if you are trying to make him a martyr..Sweden get's him first.


Name Game
Premium
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Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7
reply to norwegian
I guess a good point for discussion would be...if anyone can "confirm whether or not they think that the US - Sweden Extradition treaty forms part of Swedish domestic law. If it does not then it is clear that the Swedish supreme court cannot rule on it because it's jurisdiction is domestic."

Someone has presented what they call "a detailed and accurate time-line of the legal procedures in this case at the website of the Swedish Prosecutors office" further stating " unfortunately I can't post the link (it triggers the spam-filter). Here's the full copy instead:"

It is too long for a posting so I have attached it in a text file.

also this might answer some questions...

A Typo in the Constitution

»gregcallus.tumblr.com/post/29939···nder-eaw
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Insight6

join:2012-08-25

1 edit
reply to FF4m3
If Assange proactively asked or assisted Bradley in obtaining the documents and information then Assange is guilty of espionage. He may be extradited to the US with the cooperation of the country Assange is in. Whether it is Sweden or the UK or anywhere Assange is it doesn't matter if the host country cooperates with the US. Assange may then be charged and prosecuted.

If Assange and Wikileaks only contact with Bradley or any other source within the United States was passive, that is the source on their own initiative and transmitted the information to Wikileaks without any foreknowledge by Assange or Wikileaks than Assange is possibly home free. Possibly. The key to whether is he is off the hook or not is if he is recognized as the "press." But to be clear even if he is recognized as the press, if he actively participated directly or indirectly in the Bradley's alleged crimes than he is guilty of espionage.


poacher 1rtd
Premium
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oxford UK

1 edit
reply to The Snowman
Deleted misread the date

--
los valientes no asesinan. Guillermo Prieto (1818-1897)

"Be not inhospitable to strangers, lest they be angels in disguise. WB Yeats



Name Game
Premium
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Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7
reply to Insight6
"According to the EAW there are 32 charges which do not require a 'duality'. Rape is one of them. While this point was raised, the fact that the duality exists makes the case in Sweden stronger."

"There was a theft of data as we all know. If this were only about the publication, Wikileaks has 1st Amendment as well as a 1971 US Supreme Court decision in his favor. So you then have to ask yourself what has Assange so scared of the US?

In Manning's Article 32 hearing, it was revealed that Manning was allegedly in communication with Assange as he was committing the crime. I think if you check, this would make an extradition a tad bit easier.

Of course, one other thing that hasn't been talked about is what happens if there is no extradition request from the US? What happens after Assange faces the music in Sweden? Do they kick him out and send him back to Australia?"
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Rook008
Miles To Go
Premium
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Far Rockaway, NY
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to The Snowman
Pretty interesting discussion so far.

I Found this report while clicking through some link somewhere on this site. It's full of legal-speak, but I thought it was interesting because it mentioned unlawful acquisition of information.

»www.fas.org/sgp/crs/secrecy/R41404.pdf

In my opinion, if the government can prove that Manning did pass the files to anyone, he's screwed. I'm not so sure about Assange.
--
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." - H. L. Mencken


Name Game
Premium
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7
I guess we could label this one as..how not to try and wipe or cover your tracks on a macbook harddrive.

During the Article 32 hearing, the prosecution, led by Captain Ashden Fine, presented 300,000 pages of documents in evidence, including chat logs and classified material.[62] The court heard from two army investigators, Special Agent David Shaver, head of the digital forensics and research branch of the army's Computer Crime Investigative Unit (CCIU), and Mark Johnson, a digital forensics contractor from ManTech International, who works for the CCIU. They testified that they had found 100,000 State Department cables on a workplace computer Manning had used between November 2009 and May 2010; 400,000 military reports from Iraq and 91,000 from Afghanistan on an SD card found in his basement room in his aunt's home in Potomac, Maryland; and 10,000 cables on his personal MacBook Pro and storage devices that they said had not been passed to WikiLeaks because a file was corrupted. They also recovered 14–15 pages of encrypted chats, in unallocated space on Manning's MacBook's hard drive, between Manning and someone believed to be Julian Assange. Two of the chat handles, which used the Berlin Chaos Computer Club's domain (ccc.de), were associated with the names Julian Assange and Nathaniel Frank.[63]
Johnson said he found SSH logs on the MacBook that showed an SFTP connection, from an IP address that resolved to Manning's aunt's home, to a Swedish IP address with links to WikiLeaks.[63] There was also a text file named "Readme" attached to the logs, a note apparently written by Manning to Assange, which called the Iraq and Afghan War logs "possibly one of the most significant documents of our time, removing the fog of war and revealing the true nature of 21st century asymmetric warfare."[64] The investigators testified they had also recovered an exchange from May 2010 between Manning and Eric Schmiedl, a Boston mathematician, in which Manning said he was the source of the Baghdad helicopter attack ("Collateral Murder") video. Johnson said there had been two attempts to delete material from the MacBook. The operating system was re-installed in January 2010, and on or around January 31, 2010, an attempt was made to erase the hard drive by doing a "zero-fill," which involves overwriting material with zeroes. The material was overwritten only once, which meant it could be retrieved.[63]

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Ma···etention
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Rook008
Miles To Go
Premium
join:2002-02-05
Far Rockaway, NY
Seems like Manning is screwed.


Name Game
Premium
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7
Yup..poor kid just got caught up in game and was way out of his element having little idea of the consequence..intelligent but not that clever or experienced with the rules of engagement.


FF4m3

@bhn.net
reply to Ian
said by Ian:

said by norwegian:

We are allowed to be innocent until proven guilty? Is that not correct?

Uh huh....And the way that's determined is charges (if deemed appropriate), and a trial. Assange is skipping out on his bail and hiding out in an Embassy to duck that process. Very simple.

Very simple, if you can't handle all the previously presented events and information. But that's ok.


FF4m3

@bhn.net
reply to Name Game
said by Name Game:

if you are trying to make him a martyr

I posted a factual article published in The Sydney Morning Herald. What's your problem?


Link Logger
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Calgary, AB
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said by FF4m3 :

said by Name Game:

if you are trying to make him a martyr

I posted a factual article published in The Sydney Morning Herald. What's your problem?

The posted article is pretty clear and even clearer now after a year and a half from when the article was published, the Aussies are considering their options and responsibilities (given Assange is Australian) and have yet to exercise anything concerning Assange (and unless something changes, I doubt they ever will), which means the hair under those tin foil hats has gotten much longer and much stinkier for nothing so far, but by all means keep them on as I'm sure a vicious commando strike by the aussies is just around the corner (and by vicious I mean they will be short a case of Fosters and a couple of shrimp for the BBQ). This attack will likely take place sometime mid September to the end of October 2015 with aussie commandos posing as rugby players for the 2015 Rugby World Cup which was ingeniously planned to occur in England just for this raid on the Ecuadorian embassy in London.

How long can the spin doctors keep spinning?

Blake
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FF4m3

@bhn.net
said by Link Logger:

The posted article is pretty clear and even clearer now after a year and a half from when the article was published, the Aussies are considering their options and responsibilities (given Assange is Australian) and have yet to exercise anything concerning Assange

Correct.
said by Link Logger:

I'm sure a vicious commando strike by the aussies is just around the corner (and by vicious I mean they will be short a case of Fosters and a couple of shrimp for the BBQ). This attack will likely take place sometime mid September to the end of October 2015 with aussie commandos posing as rugby players for the 2015 Rugby World Cup which was ingeniously planned to occur in England just for this raid on the Ecuadorian embassy in London.

You're getting lots of use from your time machine. You should give a heads up to the TSA and pitch your plot to the SyFy channel.