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ZZZZZZZ
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join:2001-05-27
PARADISE
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1 recommendation

reply to The Snowman

Re: Assange makes 1st public appearance in 2 months

Does anyone really believe that Sweden isn't kissing Yankee ass?

The U.S. is PO'ed at him for releasing that info and now is asserting it's bully tactics again...........like setting him up on the sex charges.

The Brits and Sweden should be ashamed.
--
~~Go Lions....back to back Cups!!~~


Ian
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said by ZZZZZZZ:

Does anyone really believe that Sweden isn't kissing Yankee ass?

The U.S. is PO'ed at him for releasing that info and now is asserting it's bully tactics again...........like setting him up on the sex charges.

The Brits and Sweden should be ashamed.

Do you have any evidence of US involvement in the Sweden sex crime charges? Or that these charges were, in any way, a set-up? If so, perhaps the Swedish justice system would like a word with you. Or you might have submitted such things to the various courts in the UK that considered whether or not to extradite him. Neither you nor anyone else presented any such evidence.

What is interesting is that the former best friends and co-workers of Assange with Wikileaks hardly "circled the wagons" in his defense. Doesn't seem to me like they were even surprised by the allegations, and frankly would have preferred Assange to have removed himself from the process while dealing with his personal legal matters.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


Link Logger
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Calgary, AB
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reply to ZZZZZZZ
said by ZZZZZZZ:

Does anyone really believe that Sweden isn't kissing Yankee ass?

Think for just one brief moment, who is a closer American ally, UK or Sweden, and then ask yourself this, did the Brits sneak him off to the US, so why would the Swedes?

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback
reply to Ian
said by Ian:

Do you have any evidence of US involvement in the Sweden sex crime charges? Or that these charges were, in any way, a set-up? If so, perhaps the Swedish justice system would like a word with you. Or you might have submitted such things to the various courts in the UK that considered whether or not to extradite him. Neither you nor anyone else presented any such evidence.

Me thinks you need to read up more on the story, but in Daniel Ellserg's words.

This link has already been posted here in the original discussion, that seems to be second hand news now we have a fresh topic.
»truth-out.org/opinion/item/10959···-assange

It’s outrageous that Bradley Manning’s trial has again been postponed by the action of the government 'til next spring. He will have spent—he's already spent more than 800 days in confinement, 10 months of it and more in conditions that Amnesty International called torture. The idea that President Obama ended torture is simply not true. He didn’t end it even in this country, in terms of isolated commitment, incommunicado, basically, and conditions of nudity, in some cases, intended to humiliate him—all intended to press him to cop a plea and reduce his sentence from the life sentence they’re asking to a much lower sentence, if he will only implicate Julian Assange in ways that would allow them to bring a trial without great embarrassment.

Now, let me enlarge on that for a moment. They don’t have to extradite anyone to bring someone under these charges under the WikiLeaks disclosures. Everything Julian Assange could possibly be charged with under our law was committed as an act by Bill Keller, the president—sorry, the managing editor of—the executive editor of the New York Times. I don’t mean the New York Times should be indicted or that Keller should be indicted. That would be an outrage, just as it is an outrage to think of indicting Julian Assange for exactly the same thing. But meanwhile, Bradley Manning is facing charges that he aided the enemy, absurd charges that amount virtually to treason. And many people have even called for execution of either of them. Well, obviously, the same charges then could lead to Julian Assange being tried under the NDAA, the National Defense Authorization Act, which has just been found unconstitutional by a courageous and right-thinking judge in the first—in the district of Manhattan—

It's all hearsay, but to detain a man for 800 days with no trial....you have to love the new "terrorist reactive" govt of the US. Even David Hicks is backing this play. People are not to be detained without due trail or process, and to hold people on a whim and no trial!

Also, a little review of the nature of the beast:

AMY GOODMAN: The record of President Obama on whistleblowers: six whistleblowers charged under the Obama administration, more than in all—under the administrations of all past presidents combined, Dan Ellsberg?

DANIEL ELLSBERG: Twice as many. Twice as many as all past presidents. There was a total of three under past presidents, one each. I was the first ever charged with those charges. Obama has brought six such charges. And apparently his grand jury in Virginia is seeking at least a seventh, and perhaps more, against Assange and others. Twice as many as all previous.

I'm not sure what you pass for proof, facts or other, but it is plain and simple to me.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



Ian
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said by norwegian:

Me thinks you need to read up more on the story, but in Daniel Ellserg's words.

I'm familiar with Ellsberg's statements. They contain allegations, unsupported by any actual facts. And they have no bearing on Assange's rape investigation.

"DANIEL ELLSBERG: Well, everything that we’ve seen supports the position of his defense team, that this is not about sexual charges in Sweden, essentially, that that’s a cover story—whatever substance there may be to that story."

- No. There's been no evidence presented anywhere, by Mr. Ellsberg, Assange's defense team, or anyone else that says this is anything but.....a rape investigation. Elaborate fantasies strewn about? Sure. Lots of those.

It's also worth noting, that Ellsberg turned himself in to US police and faced his accusers at trial, rather than cowardly holing himself up in some dip-shit Third World embassy...
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


norwegian
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Outback
said by Ian:

No. There's been no evidence presented anywhere, by Mr. Ellsberg, Assange's defense team, or anyone else that says this is anything but.....a rape investigation. Elaborate fantasies strewn about? Sure. Lots of those.

It's also worth noting, that Ellsberg turned himself in to US police and faced his accusers at trial, rather than cowardly holing himself up in some dip-shit Third World embassy...

Maybe then, while you are being straight forward and asking for facts, when then hasn't the govt of the ladies in question sat down to hear Julian's story, as there are no charges yet to be answered for there. They have heard 1 story and it has been offered to them to sit in a room and hear his story. You do not extradite people on discussions, I believe there are in fact no charges against him as yet for the night in question with 2 ladies at once.....I could add a little more here in personal comment, but it would be unfair to due process.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



StuartMW
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1 edit
said by norwegian:

...as yet for the night in question with 2 ladies at once...

You are very generous calling them "ladies" but I digress

My personal opinion is that Assange doesn't have enough, um, "manhood" to rape anything let alone a woman.
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Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!


Ian
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1 edit
reply to norwegian
said by norwegian:

Maybe then, while you are being straight forward and asking for facts, when then hasn't the govt of the ladies in question sat down to hear Julian's story, as there are no charges yet to be answered for there.

I am unfamiliar with Swedish law, but I would imagine the course of any investigation would be to investigate....then charge (or not). Certainly interviewing the suspect would be normal procedure, right? They talked to him once. Perhaps maybe they later found evidence that pokes holes in Assange's prior interview testimony? I don't know. Not privy to the details of Assange's criminal investigation. Perhaps their evidence is such that depending on his answers, there could well be an immediate arrest. Under those circumstances, I could understand why they might wish to do so in their own jurisdiction.

And from a simple taxpayer perspective, it makes no sense to expensively fly a whole investigative team from Sweden to wherever, instead of flying one person (the suspect) in. Especially considering you'd need to fly the team back, but not necessarily the rape suspect.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


norwegian
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Outback
We are still on the same page then.

So all I can offer to your reply:

So why then can't the country of the nationality of the ladies in question give a signed document releasing his back to Equator after the trial?

I believe if he is found guilty, if, then as long as he spends due time according to the judge, it doesn't matter which country he does the time in.

I'm having a hard time understanding the lack of commitment from the Swedish in filing the request of the country, Equator, to one of it's citizen's....which is what this is all bout. Anything after that for the US will have to wait. It seems very simple, but I digress, I'm no lawyer either.

But to hear the English were rumored to take by force is not due process, that is certain. It seems to be quite a human rights fiasco, and the outcome may affect the way we are all processed going forward.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



Ian
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said by norwegian:

We are still on the same page then.
So why then can't the country of the nationality of the ladies in question give a signed document releasing his back to Equator after the trial?

Because to do so is to squash an extradition order that has not yet even been filed, let alone requested. No Country is going to do that.

Nefarious CIA fantasies aside, nobody, including the US has asked for Mr. Assange's presence in their Country.

Do you honestly think Ecuador? wants him in their Country? Let's be honest here. Why is Ecuador doing this? Because Ecuador has some sort of long-standing tradition of freedom of the press? Heh. No. They want to thumb their noses at a first world nation, and to use him as a bargaining chip, if possible. Maybe for an oil deal. Who knows? They couldn't give a rat's ass about Assange.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong

Frodo

join:2006-05-05
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reply to norwegian
said by norwegian:

But to hear the English were rumored to take by force is not due process, that is certain.

From what I heard, the English wouldn't proceed with an assault on Ecuador's embassy without British Court approval. In other words, they would have made their intentions known, so that it could be challenged in their courts. I think they have pretty much backed down now. It was a pretty stupid idea anyhow, an idea that could have repercussions on British missions abroad.


StuartMW
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said by Frodo:

It was a pretty stupid idea anyhow...

Agreed. Even if a legal argument could've been made (dubious IMO) it would've set a really bad precedent.

The last (famous) embassy takeover was by Iranian "students" back in 1979.

The Brits just need to "wait it out". Assange isn't going anywhere.
--
Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!


norwegian
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reply to Ian
That is all hearsay, I thought you were after facts?

What remains is there has been no assurances by the Swedish, only demands. Do those demands have to be met when there is no charges to be faced.

There is nothing else to discuss or assume yet.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke


Frodo

join:2006-05-05
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reply to Ian
said by Ian:

Because to do so is to squash an extradition order that has not yet even been filed, let alone requested. No Country is going to do that.

That's not the criteria. Under the Rule of Specialty the date of offense is the material question. If the US tries to extradite Assange 3 months after he is delivered to Sweden, he can only be charged with something committed after he is delivered to Sweden, not something, such as publishing the State Department papers, that occurred before Assange is extradited to Sweden.

And, by the way, the Rule of Specialty is the "way" it works. I knew that there had to be something out there, and the Rule of Specialty is it.

»www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_···mcrm.htm
"Every extradition treaty limits extradition to certain offenses. As a corollary, all extradition treaties restrict prosecution or punishment of the fugitive to the offense for which extradition was granted unless (1) the offense was committed after the fugitive's extradition or (2) the fugitive remains in the jurisdiction after expiration of a "reasonable time" (generally specified in the extradition treaty itself) following completion of his punishment. This limitation is referred to as the Rule of Specialty. "


Ian
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said by Frodo:

said by Ian:

Because to do so is to squash an extradition order that has not yet even been filed, let alone requested. No Country is going to do that.

That's not the criteria. Under the Rule of Specialty the date of offense is the material question. If the US tries to extradite Assange 3 months after he is delivered to Sweden, he can only be charged with something committed after he is delivered to Sweden, not something, such as publishing the State Department papers, that occurred before Assange is extradited to Sweden.

You're misunderstanding the Rule of Specialty. It applies to a Country agreeing to only charge the defendant on the extradited charge. Not a hypothetical 3rd party Country's extradition request.

In other words, If I am being extradited to the US to answer charges of wire-fraud, from Canada, and Canada decided to ask for this rule (for some reason), the US could then not charge me with Capital murder once I was over the border. It is actually in these cases where it is usually asked for. Countries such as Canada will not usually extradite death penalty accused because they oppose the death penalty. But it says nothing about what should happen, if, while in the US, the United Kingdom wants me extradited there to answer for murder charges.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong

Frodo

join:2006-05-05
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Here's the position of Ecuador
»wikileaks-press.org/press-confer···slation/

"In the course of these conversations, our country has sought to obtain strict guarantees from the UK government that Assange would face, without hindrance, an open legal process in Sweden. These safeguards include that after facing his legal responsibilities in Sweden, that he would not be extradited to a third country; that is, ensuring that the Specialty Rule [»www.publications.parliament.uk/p···s01.htm] is not waived. "

It's the same position. I think Ecuador is in the mainstream in demanding that Assange only be tried on what he's being extradited on. Like the other link said, the Rule of Specalization "is to ensure that a person is not extradited on a pretext".

The failure of Britain and Sweden to issue the guarantees increases the chances that Assange is being extradited on a pretext. We'll see what more lawyers have to say, but I find the Ecuadorian position persuasive.

Frodo

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1 recommendation

reply to Ian
said by Ian:

You're misunderstanding the Rule of Specialty. It applies to a Country agreeing to only charge the defendant on the extradited charge. Not a hypothetical 3rd party Country's extradition request.

I found a state department document. (PDF)
»www.state.gov/documents/organiza···7313.pdf

Under the section of Rule of Specialty:
"1. A person extradited under this Agreement shall not be arrested, detained, tried or punished in the jurisdiction of the requesting Government for an offense other than that for which extradition has been granted nor be extradited by that Government to a third country..."

It would seem to me that there would have to be something to prevent two countries from acting in concert, otherwise the specialty clause would be circumvented. I'm not seeing anything that contradicts Ecuador's position.


Blackbird
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said by Frodo:

...
I found a state department document. (PDF)
»www.state.gov/documents/organiza···7313.pdf

Under the section of Rule of Specialty:
"1. A person extradited under this Agreement shall not be arrested, detained, tried or punished in the jurisdiction of the requesting Government for an offense other than that for which extradition has been granted nor be extradited by that Government to a third country..."

It would seem to me that there would have to be something to prevent two countries from acting in concert, otherwise the specialty clause would be circumvented. I'm not seeing anything that contradicts Ecuador's position.

If you peruse a number of extradition treaties, you will find the detailed wording varies with regard to the subject covered in your Rule of Specialty. Depending on when the treaty was negotiated and ratified, you may not even find that wording as such. In the case of some treaties (such at the original TIAS 5496 treaty with Sweden, unchanged by the later TIAS 10812 supplementary treaty mod), the wording simply indicates that there shall be no extradition to a third country unless the original requested country agrees.
--
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!" -- P.Henry, 1775

Frodo

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said by Blackbird:

the wording simply indicates that there shall be no extradition to a third country unless the original requested country agrees.

Apparently, Assange didn't trust England to prevent extradition to a 3rd country, so he went with Ecuador.

But I think England and Sweden should give the assurances necessary to Ecuador so that this extradition can proceed. Otherwise, it's going to look more and more like this Swedish extradition request was a pretext. I don't see what the problem is, if the extradition was genuinely to deal with the allegations made in Sweden.


Blackbird
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said by Frodo:

said by Blackbird:

the wording simply indicates that there shall be no extradition to a third country unless the original requested country agrees.

Apparently, Assange didn't trust England to prevent extradition to a 3rd country, so he went with Ecuador.

But I think England and Sweden should give the assurances necessary to Ecuador so that this extradition can proceed. Otherwise, it's going to look more and more like this Swedish extradition request was a pretext. I don't see what the problem is, if the extradition was genuinely to deal with the allegations made in Sweden.

I think the problem is that the UK and Sweden believe it's none of Ecuador's business what or how they do or don't extradite accused criminals between themselves (or others), that being a subject governed by the negotiated and signed bilateral treaties of the nations directly involved. The treaties, and their interpretations, are a matter strictly for the nations involved (and their respective agencies and judicial systems) to interpret and enforce. Further, given that there is no current request of record for Sweden to extradite Assange to the US, Sweden and the UK believe it is unwarranted Ecuadorian interference in the extradition process between Sweden and the UK over the current sex charges pending or being evaluated in Sweden. Sovereign nations are extremely sensitive about not handing veto rights to third-party nations over their future legal and diplomatic actions... and giving the Ecuadorians the demanded assurance is tantamount to giving the Ecuadorians (or any other similarly-inclined third party nation) veto-in-principle over the interpretation of a bilateral treaty between Sweden and the UK, now and future. Nations simply resist that sort of thing.

There may or may not be a diplomatic resolution of all this. The merits of the case itself are being driven beneath the risks of setting precedent (which carries enormous diplomatic weight among nations). Frankly, I suspect the Swedes and Brits both just wish Assange would simply evaporate, but the precedents at stake are just too important diplomatically to bend very far.
--
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!" -- P.Henry, 1775


cmaengdewd

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reply to Frodo
said by Frodo:

said by Blackbird:

the wording simply indicates that there shall be no extradition to a third country unless the original requested country agrees.

Apparently, Assange didn't trust England to prevent extradition to a 3rd country, so he went with Ecuador.

But I think England and Sweden should give the assurances necessary to Ecuador so that this extradition can proceed. Otherwise, it's going to look more and more like this Swedish extradition request was a pretext. I don't see what the problem is, if the extradition was genuinely to deal with the allegations made in Sweden.

Frodo, if the rule of specialty does apply as Ecuador thinks it does, then why is there a need for any kind of guarantee of anything at all since he's already protected. Further, why the worry of going to Sweden vs being in the UK and being extradited for the same thing.


StuartMW
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reply to Blackbird
said by Blackbird:

Frankly, I suspect the Swedes and Brits both just wish Assange would simply evaporate...

They're not the only ones...
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Frodo

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reply to cmaengdewd
said by cmaengdewd :

Frodo, if the rule of specialty does apply as Ecuador thinks it does, then why is there a need for any kind of guarantee of anything at all since he's already protected. Further, why the worry of going to Sweden vs being in the UK and being extradited for the same thing.

As far as the 1st question is concerned, it probably has something to do with the fact that the sending country can waive specialty. Ecuador wants a guarantee that specialty won't be waived. As far as the 2nd question is concerned, I have no idea what the difference is between extradition from Britain to the US versus extradition from Sweden to the US.


AVD
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reply to cmaengdewd
said by cmaengdewd :

said by Frodo:

said by Blackbird:

the wording simply indicates that there shall be no extradition to a third country unless the original requested country agrees.

Apparently, Assange didn't trust England to prevent extradition to a 3rd country, so he went with Ecuador.

But I think England and Sweden should give the assurances necessary to Ecuador so that this extradition can proceed. Otherwise, it's going to look more and more like this Swedish extradition request was a pretext. I don't see what the problem is, if the extradition was genuinely to deal with the allegations made in Sweden.

Frodo, if the rule of specialty does apply as Ecuador thinks it does, then why is there a need for any kind of guarantee of anything at all since he's already protected. Further, why the worry of going to Sweden vs being in the UK and being extradited for the same thing.

because the UK can waive the rule. Something Ecuador wan't assurances won't happen.
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