dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
20
share rss forum feed

Frodo

join:2006-05-05
reply to Blackbird

Re: Assange makes 1st public appearance in 2 months

said by Blackbird:

But if one is persuasively alleged to have committed a crime against a citizen or agency of another nation, they are indeed subject to extradition for trial in that nation, if an applicable treaty exists and if courts in the sending nation agree.

True. However he is under Ecuadorian jurisdiction at the moment. So, Ecuador does have a say. People may not like that Ecuador has a say, but that's tough luck. Now Britain and Sweden say that the matter involves allegations in Sweden. Confine the extradition of Assange to that matter only, and that resolves Ecuador's concern.

What I don't like hearing is that Assange is chicken to answer to the Swedish allegations when the real issue is that Assange doesn't want to answer for the Wikileaks publishing of the State Department papers.

I'd like to see the guarantees issued so that the Swedish matter could be resolved.


Blackbird
Built for Speed
Premium
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

1 recommendation

said by Frodo:

said by Blackbird:

But if one is persuasively alleged to have committed a crime against a citizen or agency of another nation, they are indeed subject to extradition for trial in that nation, if an applicable treaty exists and if courts in the sending nation agree.

True. However he is under Ecuadorian jurisdiction at the moment. So, Ecuador does have a say. People may not like that Ecuador has a say, but that's tough luck. Now Britain and Sweden say that the matter involves allegations in Sweden. Confine the extradition of Assange to that matter only, and that resolves Ecuador's concern.
...
I'd like to see the guarantees issued so that the Swedish matter could be resolved.

Yes, Ecuador indeed does have a say. But that say ends at the property line of the Ecuadorian embassy, since their sovereignty ends at that point in the UK. And Ecuador may not like that the UK has the ultimate say, but that's also tough luck... it's the UK's sovereign territory that Assange has to traverse if he ever leaves the embassy, and its the UK's extradition treaty with Sweden that the UK feels obligated to honor. Likewise, Sweden believes it has a sovereign obligation to honor whatever extradition treaty it may have with the US (or other nations), so it is unwilling to carte-blanche renounce those obligations to satisfy Ecuador or Assange. Now, whether Assange would ever be successfully extradited to the US by Sweden under terms of such a treaty is another issue entirely... most such treaties involve critical review by courts in the nation sending the accused - things like trial fairness, valid charges, political persecution, etc all can and generally are considered. But simply demanding the carte-blanch abbrogation of any extradition treaty between the US and Sweden is not normally considered an acceptable diplomatic solution to the kind of problem that now exists with Assange in the Ecuadorian embassy.
--
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!" -- P.Henry, 1775


StuartMW
Who Is John Galt?
Premium
join:2000-08-06
Galt's Gulch
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to Frodo

said by Frodo:

What I don't like hearing is that Assange is chicken to answer to the Swedish allegations when the real issue is that Assange doesn't want to answer for the Wikileaks publishing of the State Department papers.

Exactly!

Assange figured he could publish secret documents that embarrassed the US and some of it allies without consequences. He wanted to tour the world and show what a great guy he was after doing so. Now some of those allies want him for unrelated charges (trumped up or not). The bottom line is that, as you said, Assange doesn't want to face the music for the original act. I don't know whether the US can make a case against him stick or not but Assange is a chicken. He wanted to play with the big boys and now that he's under threat he wants to run and hide. He is, what is known in some parts, as a gutless wonder.
--
Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!

Frodo

join:2006-05-05

said by StuartMW:

He is, what is known in some parts, as a gutless wonder.

I don't think he's a gutless wonder. Why should he face US justice? If I published Iranian, Russian, Chinese, or Saudi Arabia classified information, I wouldn't want to extradited there either.

I don't think he committed a crime by publishing under the Pentagon Papers precident. It is treasonous like conduct however if he was an American. But he's not.

I think we're looking at this too much through an American lens. I wonder how this looks through the Ecuadorian lens?


StuartMW
Who Is John Galt?
Premium
join:2000-08-06
Galt's Gulch
kudos:2

1 recommendation

said by Frodo:

I don't think he's a gutless wonder.

Fair enough but I, for one, am not going to give Assange respect I don't think he's earned.

If an individual or group perceives a wrong they can fight for their cause (whether I agree with it or not) but they have to accept the consequences. In some cases that might mean losing their freedom. In others it may mean losing their lives. In either case they have the courage of their convictions and deserve (some) respect.

Who do you admire more Assange or a "freedom fighter" in Syria? Or an American Revolutionary?
--
Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!


Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3
reply to Frodo

said by Frodo:

said by StuartMW:

He is, what is known in some parts, as a gutless wonder.

I don't think he's a gutless wonder. Why should he face US justice? If I published Iranian, Russian, Chinese, or Saudi Arabia classified information, I wouldn't want to extradited there either.

Assange is charged with raping a couple women in Sweden, and is not currently on the run from US justice, rather Swedish justice. See the distinction?
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong

Frodo

join:2006-05-05

said by Ian:

Assange is charged with raping a couple women in Sweden, and is not currently on the run from US justice, rather Swedish justice. See the distinction?

I'm aware of the distinction. Have you been following the thread? Or read the position of the Ecuadorian president?

Nobody has a problem with Assange facing Swedish authorities, so long as it isn't a ruse to put Assange in a jurisdiction with a favorable extradition arrangement with the US.

PrntRhd
Premium
join:2004-11-03
Fairfield, CA
Reviews:
·Comcast

4 edits

1 recommendation

said by Frodo:

said by Ian:

Assange is charged with raping a couple women in Sweden, and is not currently on the run from US justice, rather Swedish justice. See the distinction?

I'm aware of the distinction. Have you been following the thread? Or read the position of the Ecuadorian president?

Nobody has a problem with Assange facing Swedish authorities, so long as it isn't a ruse to put Assange in a jurisdiction with a favorable extradition arrangement with the US.

If he did not commit a crime in Sweden, where extradition is possible, he would not be at risk now, so it is his own fault if he is in legal jeopardy now.
Again, as several already posted, he has not been charged with any offense in the US. If he is charged he would face extradition just like anyone else would and it would be up to the courts in the country where he was located after a trial (Sweden) to decide if the extradition would go forward or if he would be deported to his own country (Australia).

Assange would not face treason charges in the US in any case because he is a citizen of Australia.
Possession of stolen diplomatic cables, maybe espionage, but not treason. Australia would only consider treason if he published Australian military or diplomatic secrets.


Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3
reply to Frodo

said by Frodo:

Nobody has a problem with Assange facing Swedish authorities, so long as it isn't a ruse to put Assange in a jurisdiction with a favorable extradition arrangement with the US.

Actually it sounds like Julian Assange has a problem with facing Swedish authorities on his rape charges. So much so, that he screwed his friends and supporters over, causing them to lose half a million US$ in bail money.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback
reply to Ian

said by Ian:

Assange is charged with raping a couple women in Sweden, and is not currently on the run from US justice, rather Swedish justice. See the distinction?

Again, there is no charges at present, and it is only 1 case of rape. Please read up.


norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback
reply to Ian

said by Ian:

Actually it sounds like Julian Assange has a problem with facing Swedish authorities on his rape charges. So much so, that he screwed his friends and supporters over, causing them to lose half a million US$ in bail money.

Also, there has been requests for the Swedish Govt to sit in a room and discuss the needs of the case with Julian, which is normal and standard procedure when it tracks across 2 countries territories.

To date they have refused to deal with standard process. They (all) want him in the open, it makes an easier target. Thumbs up for the president of Ecuador for doing this. His govt is splitting on how to deal with this due to the US wanting to place an Embargo (reads: they don't pay taxes for their exports and now there is a timed notion that this tax free policy be changed) on his country to pressure them into releasing him.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



goalieskates
Premium
join:2004-09-12
land of big

1 edit

1 recommendation

reply to Frodo

said by Frodo:

Nobody has a problem with Assange facing Swedish authorities, so long as it isn't a ruse to put Assange in a jurisdiction with a favorable extradition arrangement with the US.

That's hair-splitting and ridiculous.

The charges he's avoiding are from Sweden. No third country can demand assurances for what "might" happen beyond those charges and no third country can give them just in case, but for sure he is under indictment for a specific crime and needs to answer it.

It seems to me you're buying into his effort to throw up a smokescreen and avoid a legal proceeding by throwing out a complete red herring. If the US brings charges and files for extradition you can debate the legality of that, but until they do this is a case of one guy thumbing his nose at the law. And that's pure and utter bs.

You don't get an out-of-jail-free card on rape just because you also leaked some documents. Rape is not a victimless crime. The one doesn't absolve responsibility for the other.

Frodo

join:2006-05-05
reply to Ian

said by Ian:

Actually it sounds like Julian Assange has a problem with facing Swedish authorities on his rape charges.

If that's the problem, then Assange is out of luck. According to Ecuador's president, Ecuador agrees that Assange should answer to the Swedish allegations. All they want is guarantees that if Assange is extradited to Sweden, that there won't be a subsequent extradition to a 3rd country.

So, if one supports having the Swedish allegations resolved, then one would have to support the guarantees.

Ecuador has called the Swedish and British bluff. There is absolutely no reason to not issue the guarantees if the Swedish allegations are the true reason for extraditing Assange to Sweden. Once the Swedish allegations are resolved, and if applicable, Assange has served his sentence, then he could be returned to the Ecuadorian embassy. At least that way one of the issues would be resolved as opposed to zero issues resolved.

And as far as the alleged Swedish crime victims are concerned, they don't need to have their justice coupled to a Wikileaks case in the US. That's not fair to them. The guarantees need to be issued and the Swedish case needs to be decoupled with any other prosecution in a 3rd country.


Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3

said by Frodo:

All they want is guarantees that if Assange is extradited to Sweden, that there won't be a subsequent extradition to a 3rd country.

So, if one supports having the Swedish allegations resolved, then one would have to support the guarantees.

No, you're still missing the point. It would be extraordinary (I'm no lawyer, but possibly even unprecedented) for any nation to promise not to extradite somebody about hypothetical charges made by some other hypothetical nation. That's just not how it works.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong

Frodo

join:2006-05-05

said by Ian:

No, you're still missing the point. It would be extraordinary (I'm no lawyer, but possibly even unprecedented) for any nation to promise not to extradite somebody about hypothetical charges made by some other hypothetical nation. That's just not how it works.

I'm no lawyer either. But if it didn't work this way, take the following scenario. Saudi Arabia charges me with murder, and they have an extradition treaty with the US. I'm delivered to Saudi Arabia, whereupon the murder charge is dropped and I'm off to Yemen on a blasphemy charge.

Something has to prevent scenarios like that or extradition treaties would be a joke. But, to be sure, I am interested in reading a legal analysis on Ecuador's proposal. But, my inkling is that Ecuador is within its rights.


Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3

said by Frodo:

I'm no lawyer either. But if it didn't work this way, take the following scenario. Saudi Arabia charges me with murder, and they have an extradition treaty with the US. I'm delivered to Saudi Arabia, whereupon the murder charge is dropped and I'm off to Yemen on a blasphemy charge.

So you foresee your government backing you up and only agreeing to extradite you on murder charges to a foreign country that they have an extradition treaty with, if, and only if, that country promises to NEVER extradite you elsewhere, regardless of whatever those hypothetical charges might be?

Hope you're never in that situation, because I assure you, you'll be disappointed. Because, again, that's simply not how these things work.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


EGeezer
zichrona livracha
Premium
join:2002-08-04
Midwest
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Callcentric
reply to Blackbird

It would get very interesting if they decided to ship Assange out in a crate declared as a diplomatic pouch.

Although Assange is wanted by Sweden on charges unrelated to the wikileaks scandal, I suspect they have agreed to send him to the US for bigger charges.

Assange has embarrassed many politicians from many governments, including the US, UK, France, Israel, Russia, China, several Arab states, both Koreas and Japan. As a result, he has made many enemies, so even his escape to Ecuador would only be a temporary reprieve.