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iknow
Premium
join:2012-03-25
reply to DataDoc

Re: Deadly Amoebas Found in Tankless Water Heater

said by DataDoc:

All of you arguing about water temp are forgetting that the victims used a neti pot filled with tap water.
As was said by CDC, "People who use neti pots to irrigate their nasal passages and sinuses should use only water that has been boiled, filtered or distilled."
They mean everyone no matter what temp your hot water heater is set because the amoeba can live at the faucets, far from the heat source.

if they are killed in the water heater they won't be living at the faucets in sufficient quantities. organisms thrive in warm water, and grow to dangerous amounts.


Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4

You won't answer this one either, but what is a sufficient quantity to kill a person? Does it take more than one?


iknow
Premium
join:2012-03-25

said by Lurch77:

You won't answer this one either, but what is a sufficient quantity to kill a person? Does it take more than one?

this should answer that, "We don't know that there's a big risk from this — most cases occur from swimming in warm, fresh water," Yoder said. In fact, of the 32 N. fowleri cases reported in the U.S. between 2002 and 2011, 28 people were infected by contaminated recreational water activities, such as swimming in lakes or rivers, and two were infected by water from a contaminated geothermal source." this goes for legionnaires disease too, warm water breeds dangerous levels, so yes, it does appear to take more than one.


Raphion

join:2000-10-14
Samsara
Reviews:
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reply to Bob4

This is always such a hot topic, har har.

FWIW, I feel like the danger of hot water that's actually hot being super dangerous is a bit overblown. I've had 140+ degree hot water since I was a toddler, and never got burned. I'm not even sure how you would get burned, you'd have to do something really dumb, like standing in the water stream in such a way that you couldn't move out of it, and turn the mix to 100% hot.

140 degree water takes several seconds to produce a 1st degree burn, so you'd have to have to be really sedated/passed out not to react and get out of contact with it before you got a sunburn class "scald".



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1

1 recommendation

How about our young, elderly and disabled? Why heat the water to 140 degrees when it's not needed and costs fortune to do? I do just fine at 120 degrees.



GadgetsRme
RIP lilhurricane
Premium
join:2002-01-30
Canon City, CO

said by Jack_in_VA:

How about our young, elderly and disabled? Why heat the water to 140 degrees when it's not needed and costs fortune to do? I do just fine at 120 degrees.

+1
--
Gadgets

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
reply to Jack_in_VA

My daughter is smart enough not to hold her hands under excessively hot water.

I set my water heater to provide 125 F at the kitchen tap.



Raphion

join:2000-10-14
Samsara
reply to Jack_in_VA

To each his own ofc. I like hot water for cleaning/laundry, and it goes much farther for showers/baths. I'm not young (anymore), though it didn't hurt me when I was, not eldery quite yet, and not disabled though.



Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4
reply to Bob4

Seems to me scalding hurts or kills more people than man eating microscopic creatures in the water. »www.google.com/search?q=toddler+···ie=UTF-8
If you live on your own, or have non-child people only in the household, it is fine. Be sure to warn any guests though. For me it is the other way around. In my house, I have a paraplegic child. He also cannot talk. He cannot tell us when something is hurting or not right. Water cannot get hotter than 120. I never have to worry about his nurse or anyone else accidentally scalding him.


Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online

You obvious have a special case. But in general, parents are raising a nation of wimps.
See - »www.amazon.com/Nation-Wimps-High···67924037

For example, when I grew up, we didn't have electrical outlet covers. You were told not to stick anything in there, and if you did, you found out why and would never do it again! Get burned? You learned!



Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4

That's going off on another subject. I agree with you in that our kids are getting wimpy. But I don't think avoiding scalding a toddler makes them wimpy. I have an exceptional case, but check my google search link to see it happens all the time to kids all over the place. Get scalded in the bath your irresponsible parent ran, you learn to not take baths?


Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey

I think avoiding exposure to things like Legionnaire's Disease by setting the water heater to 135 F is a valid trade off to the slight risk of being scalded. The single-handle, pressure balanced faucets makes that very unlikely.


Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
reply to Lurch77

Our school has had to decontaminate their plumbing because they set the hot water to the ideal temperature for growing nasty bacteria.


scooper

join:2000-07-11
Youngsville, NC
kudos:2
reply to Bob4

40 gallon electric tank is set to 125, 1 Gallon per minute tankless in kitchen (for sink / dishwasher) is set to at least 135, maybe 140. Just two middle aged, nondisabled adults in our house.



cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7
reply to GadgetsRme

said by GadgetsRme:

Ya' know we really should just ban life, because it does end in death.

Speak for yourself. I'm living forever.

AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL

1 recommendation

reply to Bob4

I love how this thread has gone in all different directions. A couple of points though...

1) It doesn't matter what your hot water tank is set to if the contamination is present in the water supply. Yes, it won't last as long as it will in a nice hot water tank but how do you think the contamination gets to the hot water tank in the first place?

2) Even setting a hot water tank to 220 is not going to kill all microbes. You would have to boil the water for sufficient duration and then deliver the water via a sterile method - your hot water pipes don't qualify. Even at 220, you probably would still have the occasional living contamination.

3) Setting the tank water heater to a high temperature only deters growth in the tank, if you later "cut it" with cold water from the tap you'll still get the exposure.

4) The case of Neti pot deaths is probably more related to the more direct exposure to the organism via the thin membranes of the sinus, rather than the actual organism being present.



GadgetsRme
RIP lilhurricane
Premium
join:2002-01-30
Canon City, CO
reply to cdru

said by cdru:

said by GadgetsRme:

Ya' know we really should just ban life, because it does end in death.

Speak for yourself. I'm living forever.

Only if forever comes soon.
--
Gadgets


Raphion

join:2000-10-14
Samsara
reply to AVonGauss

How could 220 not kill everything? I thought protein denatured at around 160



Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4
reply to Bob4

I don't know how we've all managed to live as long as we have.


AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL
reply to Raphion

Some organisms can stand extreme conditions, such as heat - in more dramatic circumstances and environments, we call them extremophiles. Its really all about the concentration of any one given organism per volume and our susceptibility to that organism. Even if the water coming out your faucet were truly pure, it would become "contaminated" in milliseconds before getting to your mouth - however, not in any concentration that matters.



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to Bob4

said by Bob4:

I think avoiding exposure to things like Legionnaire's Disease by setting the water heater to 135 F is a valid trade off to the slight risk of being scalded. The single-handle, pressure balanced faucets makes that very unlikely.

No I think you have it backwards. The slight risk of contracting Legionnaires Disease is very slight. The chance of getting scalded is very high.

There is no rational reason to exceed the CDC recommendation of 120 degrees for the the setting.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to scooper

said by scooper:

40 gallon electric tank is set to 125, 1 Gallon per minute tankless in kitchen (for sink / dishwasher) is set to at least 135, maybe 140. Just two middle aged, nondisabled adults in our house.

I have mine set at 120 degrees. NO tankless for kitchen. I just run the dishwasher on Sanitize and that takes care of the potential dish problem.

Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
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reply to AVonGauss

The magic number for pasteurization is 144 degrees Fahrenheit. That is the temperature that commercial pasteurizers are set to.

My sister in law insisted on setting the hot water temperature at 150 degrees. First of all it was scalding hot and it made taking a shower a high risk situation. Whenever someone turned on a cold water faucet or flushed a toilet the water became scalding hot.

I understand she finally reduced the temperature when one of her guests got scalded by one of those shower valves that rotate from cold to hot. The guest got mixed up and turned the valve the wrong way toward hot rather then off. When I visited them I got out of the shower first and then turned the water off.


Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to Jack_in_VA

said by Jack_in_VA:

There is no rational reason to exceed the CDC recommendation of 120 degrees for the the setting.

Or maybe there is:
said by CDC :
Households with water heater temperatures <=125°F were significantly more likely to harbor nontuberculous mycobacteria (NTM) compared with households with hot water temperatures >=130°F...

Nontuberculous mycobacteria (NTM) are opportunistic pathogens found in the environment (e.g., water and soil) and cause life-threatening infections in humans, other mammals, and birds. The incidence of NTM disease in Canada and the United States seems to be increasing... NTM are not transient contaminants of drinking water distribution systems; rather, the NTM grow and persist in plumbing.
»wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/17/3/p···1510.pdf

patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1

2 recommendations

reply to Bob4

If you use a tempering valve, you contaminated your hot water with healthy amoeba from cold water.



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

said by patcat88:

If you use a tempering valve, you contaminated your hot water with healthy amoeba from cold water.

I think that little "Inconvenient Fact" negates most of the arguments for having the temperature so high on the water heater.

You don't even need a tempering valve for this to happen. Just adding cold water to temper the temperature low enough to keep the water from scalding will contaminate the 140 degree water.

iknow
Premium
join:2012-03-25

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by patcat88:

If you use a tempering valve, you contaminated your hot water with healthy amoeba from cold water.

I think that little "Inconvenient Fact" negates most of the arguments for having the temperature so high on the water heater.

You don't even need a tempering valve for this to happen. Just adding cold water to temper the temperature low enough to keep the water from scalding will contaminate the 140 degree water.

no, the amount of harmful bacteria etc. is much lower in cold water, so much lower that the governing body of the water agency you get the water from deems it safe to use!. it's the vastly increased amounts of bacteria etc. in WARM water that makes it unsafe, they grow to dangerous levels in WARM water!!. have the condensate from your A.C. tested sometime!!.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

said by iknow:

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by patcat88:

If you use a tempering valve, you contaminated your hot water with healthy amoeba from cold water.

I think that little "Inconvenient Fact" negates most of the arguments for having the temperature so high on the water heater.

You don't even need a tempering valve for this to happen. Just adding cold water to temper the temperature low enough to keep the water from scalding will contaminate the 140 degree water.

no, the amount of harmful bacteria etc. is much lower in cold water, so much lower that the governing body of the water agency you get the water from deems it safe to use!. it's the vastly increased amounts of bacteria etc. in WARM water that makes it unsafe, they grow to dangerous levels in WARM water!!. have the condensate from your A.C. tested sometime!!.

iknow again you do realize you can and are entirely free to set your temperature to any value you want and are comfortable with. Nobody here I don't think will try to force you to do differently. I'm entirely satisfied with the 120 mine is set for and I'm still alive.


Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4
reply to iknow

said by iknow:

no, the amount of harmful bacteria etc. is much lower in cold water, so much lower that the governing body of the water agency you get the water from deems it safe to use!. it's the vastly increased amounts of bacteria etc. in WARM water that makes it unsafe, they grow to dangerous levels in WARM water!!. have the condensate from your A.C. tested sometime!!.

They were found in the faucets of one of the dead victims, with no mention of a water heater in that case. Seems "WARM water" is not the only place they live and thrive.

Telling someone to test the AC condensate is stupid and has no comparison to the potable water sources we are discussing here. AC systems are full of bacteria and other contaminants due to the environment it is in. Just like we would not compare our drinking water to swamp water.


marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
kudos:2
reply to Bob4

said by Bob4:

said by Jack_in_VA:

There is no rational reason to exceed the CDC recommendation of 120 degrees for the the setting.

Or maybe there is:
said by CDC :
Households with water heater temperatures <=125°F were significantly more likely to harbor nontuberculous mycobacteria (NTM) compared with households with hot water temperatures >=130°F...

NTM disease cases number less than 4,000 per year, and the -vast- majority of those cases are from environmental airborne exposure.
Since, you know, you have to inhale them to contact disease from them. A hotter shower is actually much more dangerous of a risk exposure because of that.
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