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rbnice1

join:2000-12-16
Fenton, MO

New home build framing question.

So they finally started framing. They did the main metal support beam and the joists and the the joist caps.

My first question is on the joist caps. It appears the cap was bowed so they did a series of thin notches so it could be flattened out. Is this allowed or would it cause any issues down the road? It doesnt appear to me that it would mater.

PICS:



Second question is on the main support beam it doesn't appear that the shims are done correctly. Thoughts?

PIC:

Zach1
Premium
join:2006-11-26
NW Minnesota

1 recommendation

Since they are using dimensional lumber for the joists, the kerfs in the band board would probably pass inspection. I wouldn't accept it though; it's poor workmanship. The shim job under the beam is inadequate. Our local inspector would flag it for sure.
--
Zach


nunya
LXI 483
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join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
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reply to rbnice1
Your concerns are legitimate. I'd throw down a red flag until they are addressed.
The band board isn't just there to hold the joists up. It serves a lateral purpose as well (think earthquake).
I've never seen this done before. If the lumber is shit, you toss it (or cut it for use elsewhere) and get a new piece.

The shims are not acceptable either. They should be steel, and at least the size of the beam plate (and stacked properly!). A lot of builders grout the pocket. Not sure if that's required or not.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.


rbnice1

join:2000-12-16
Fenton, MO
reply to rbnice1
Called the foreman with my concerns. He said kerfs are a normal thing for them but he is going to look at it. I could understand a kerf or 2 in a long run but 4-5 kerfs in a 12 foot segment seems bad.

He also said he will be by tomorrow morning to look at it.

Thanks for the input. I will be posting occasionally as things come up that I am unsure on, and really appreciate the knowledge here!

Zach1
Premium
join:2006-11-26
NW Minnesota
After reading Nunya's post and recalling MO is an area with a good bit of seismic activity, stand your ground on those band boards and beam shimming! What they've done is very far from customary and accepted practice
--
Zach

H_T_R_N
Premium
join:2011-12-06
Valencia, PA
kudos:1
reply to rbnice1
HELL NO!!!! With as glaring a crap job this early I would be sure to be there every day to check on things. If you cant be there hire some that can. The "shims" would cause me to loose it!


rbnice1

join:2000-12-16
Fenton, MO
I plan on being there almost daily. If I am not my mother will be cause the kids school is across the street.

Luckily the new house is only 10 minutes from the apartment we are renting.


Ken
Premium,MVM
join:2003-06-16
Markle, IN
reply to rbnice1
The rim joist being cut like that is just pure laziness. If you have a joist that bad, you call up your lumber guy and make him run you out a new one. Those shims under the beam are really half-ass.

Now with that said, everything you have posted is completely inline with your average production framing crew. If you pointed out that rim joist they truly wouldn't understand why you have a problem with it. They will say they do it all the time, and so does everyone else. The sad truth is, they would be right. If you are forced to keep using that framing crew I would be in there every day watching them, putting a level on things, and measuring what they are doing and comparing with the blueprints.


Msradell
P.E.
Premium
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY
reply to rbnice1
That notch they made to clear the anchor bolt is also not acceptable!

Zach1
Premium
join:2006-11-26
NW Minnesota
Not to mention, there appears to be only one anchor bolt in the 12-foot run in the picture. It's looking like the OP has a long, hard road to travel with this crew.
--
Zach

kherr
Premium
join:2000-09-04
Collinsville, IL
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to rbnice1
Make sure that when they stud the walls the studs are directly in line with the joists. When in-line the weight on the studs/wall will bear down on the joist. Needs to be done on interior walls also. The drywallers may complain, but your plumber/HVAC people will love it. They will be able to use the whole space between studs to drop their pipes. I always run a bead glue under each wall too, won't move around afterwords, but if it is off the line, it's a bitch to correct.


rbnice1

join:2000-12-16
Fenton, MO
reply to Msradell
How should the anchor bolt notch been done? I didn't think there was anything wrong with it.

Also the anchor bolts are spaced pretty evenly I would have to measure but they are like every 3 foot.

Will have to buy a long level all my tools are in a pod storage. And will watch the walls to make sure they are placed over joists and not in between them.

I will also have to see if I can get them to email me a copy of the blueprints.

Thanks again guys!

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Isn't this the sort of oversight that the General Contractor should be doing? (Or are you acting as the General Contractor?)


Coma
Thanks Steve
Premium
join:2001-12-30
NirvanaLand
reply to rbnice1
said by rbnice1:

How should the anchor bolt notch been done? I didn't think there was anything wrong with it.

Also the anchor bolts are spaced pretty evenly I would have to measure but they are like every 3 foot.


Who ever poured the foundation screwed up with the placement of the anchor bolt that needed the notch in the band board.

--
August is National Eye Exam Month

garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
reply to rbnice1
I can picture a future split propogating up from that bolt clearance notch (it is a stress concentrator) up to the kerf. At that point the integrity of that whole board is shot.

wth
Premium
join:2002-02-20
Iowa City,IA

1 recommendation

reply to rbnice1
Is there the possibility that the rim joists were cut because the concrete is not not level, but dips down from the corner?


Msradell
P.E.
Premium
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY
reply to rbnice1
said by rbnice1:

How should the anchor bolt notch been done? I didn't think there was anything wrong with it.

The anchor bolts should be put inside of the joist caps. They hold the sill plate down. It's obvious that the concrete crew put them in the wrong place. I don't see any other ones that required notching in your pictures, are there? This could become a major problem in the long run. Not only is mentioned by others could lead to the deterioration of the member but it's also a hole in the envelope of the structure that could affect air infiltration if not properly sealed.


cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7
reply to Coma
said by Coma:

Who ever poured the foundation screwed up with the placement of the anchor bolt that needed the notch in the band board.

It's nothing a saws-all, 1/2 masonry bit, threaded rod and some epoxy wouldn't fix. Properly.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to nunya
said by nunya:

The shims are not acceptable either. They should be steel, and at least the size of the beam plate (and stacked properly!). A lot of builders grout the pocket. Not sure if that's required or not.

Where I am, the shims are required to be welded to the beam and the pocket grouted. It would also be a good idea to brace the beam laterally with metal welded to it - before grouting.

That's among the poorest installs I've seen.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to cdru
said by cdru:

said by Coma:

Who ever poured the foundation screwed up with the placement of the anchor bolt that needed the notch in the band board.

It's nothing a saws-all, 1/2 masonry bit, threaded rod and some epoxy wouldn't fix. Properly.

+1

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to rbnice1
1) Take an 8' long level and place it right up against the concrete to see if the top of the foundation wall is poured level (+/- 1/4 inch). If it isn't, then that's the reason for the kerf cuts. They should have used self-leveling grout formed in the un-level area to fix it before the bottom plate was bolted down.

If they don't replace the band board, take some 2x6 on the inside of the band board and place it vertically across the kerf cut and glue & nail it in place to hold both sides of the cut board together. Alternatively, look in the Simpson Strong-Tie catalog for binding plates - similar to the ones used to hold trusses together. Since they are thin you can place them on both the interior & exterior of the kerf cut.

kherr
Premium
join:2000-09-04
Collinsville, IL
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to wth
said by wth:

Is there the possibility that the rim joists were cut because the concrete is not not level, but dips down from the corner?

More likely there's a crown on the band board and they were too lazy to get a straight one. Around here they use the micro-lams as band board so they're right on.

As far as the bolts go, they require them every four feet here.

They are probably using 2X4s or 2X6s for the sill plate and are easier for the bolt to miss the board. I always use 2X8s. It costs a little more, but when a new house cost $250,000 it's negligible.


08034016
Hallo lisa Aus Amerika
Premium
join:2001-08-31
Byron, GA
reply to rbnice1
Both of the Authors Pic's WOW just WOW what Idiots...,

I would have them redo that mess Correctly, no way i would Accept that Common Sense.
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hdman
Flt Rider
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join:2003-11-25
Appleton, WI
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2 recommendations

reply to rbnice1
If the beam was that bad to begin with, the framers should have had the lumber yard bring out new ones. When I build, I keep the lumber covered AND banded for the whole project, so that it does NOT bow. When I am done for the day, I go to the stacked lumber, and tighten the shipping bands and then tarp the lumber.

As far as the sill bolts, those notches tell me the bolts are in the wrong place, which is why I do NOT use bolts. I use a thin layer of foam, PL, then I place green teat sill on that then drill holes into the concrete and the sill and then use drive pins. NOTHING holds like that, and, I get a good seal that will never rot. I never trust ANY concrete person to have the bolts in the right place, so I tell them to NOT use any. Drive pins are awesome for me....

Good luck, but I would watch these guys like a hawk!!!! It appears to me they don't have a good relationship with the lumber yard or the other contractors on the job. My lumber yard KNOWS to send me straight lumber or it will come back....
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Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
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said by hdman:

My lumber yard KNOWS to send me straight lumber or it will come back....

Maybe the price was discounted.


rbnice1

join:2000-12-16
Fenton, MO
reply to rbnice1
Well they are replacing the board and will fix the shims. They will be mortaring in the main beam and shims so the shim sizing is fine.

I will be watching them closely. I have talked with them and they are actually pretty nice guys and seem to be hard working. They have all the external walls up and they are actually all lvl and sq to the floor.

So far I havent seen anything else that looked wrong.

But if i see something else wacky I will be posting about it.

Hellrazor
Bah Humbug

join:2002-02-02
Abyss, PA
Reviews:
·Service Electric..
said by rbnice1:

Well they are replacing the board and will fix the shims. They will be mortaring in the main beam and shims so the shim sizing is fine.

Make sure they put proper shims in place. Beat them with a framing hammer if they try to put a brick or some other crap like that under it and throw mortar over it.


rbnice1

join:2000-12-16
Fenton, MO
reply to rbnice1
So..... They haven't done much work do to the hurricane working its way through the midwest. Which in this case is a good thing. Its less they will have to redo.

They still havent replaced the beam boards that have all the kerfs and now they have walls built on top of them so I guess the GC just ignored me. I will be making them gusset now from the back because we will have no other choice. It will take them 4 times as long then it would have taken to just fix it when I told them to but what ever its just going to eat into there bottom line not mine.

And while I was there today I looked at the joists they put in for the send floor and I am not even sure you are allowed to do what they did by code, much less good practice. Some of the joists are like 1 inch from being flush with the bottom of the hanger. Anyone know if this is even allowed?




kherr
Premium
join:2000-09-04
Collinsville, IL
Reviews:
·Charter
Find out when the inspector comes out and have him justify why he's passing sloppy workmanship. Better yet if you have an architect on the job have him justify it. Take plenty of pictures.

That big o' gap sure is going to give your drywall a nice even ceiling too. Looks you got some good o' hillbillies for framers ...


nunya
LXI 483
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O Fallon, MO
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reply to rbnice1
Please tell me those joists aren't nailed in yet.
Also, check out the top plate on the corner in the background. Why not let those into each other?

Unfortunately, being a nice guy might not work. Nice guys get walked on.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.