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BrewBoy5

join:2002-04-28
reply to rbnice1

Re: New home build framing question.

It's fairly clear that the joists are not nailed yet(to a trained eye), before you complain I would confirm what you think you see. As far as the top plates not overlapping, ideally they would overlap, but is it a big deal in a interior non structural location ,which this appears to be, not so much. As far as the kerfs in the rim board, i have no idea why, however the structural function of the rim board is compression and the kerfs would not affect compression to much. The shimming under the beam is crap if that is the end product, however in my experience, the framer shims it to where it is supposed to be and the contractor has it properly grouted and secured. Before you listen to a bunch of self righteous jack wagons from the internet I would talk to your contractor and resolve your concerns.


AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL

said by BrewBoy5:

Before you listen to a bunch of self righteous jack wagons from the internet I would talk to your contractor and resolve your concerns.

Sounds like they already did talk to them, and they were ignored...

»Re: New home build framing question.

...
Self Righteous Jack Wagon


rbnice1

join:2000-12-16
Fenton, MO
reply to BrewBoy5

You are correct looking closer they are not nailed yet. While I agree the kerfs are not a structural issue and if there was a kerf in a 20 foot board I wouldnt bitch. My problem is there are 5 in a 20 foot board. The 2x10 rim board they used really should have been scrapped.

The main beam and shims will be grouted so the shims are fine as long as they stack them right.

As far as the self righteous jack wagons here.... They are answering my questions as I ask them. I can hardly complain about them. :P



Ken
Premium,MVM
join:2003-06-16
Markle, IN

1 recommendation

reply to BrewBoy5

said by BrewBoy5:

As far as the top plates not overlapping, ideally they would overlap, but is it a big deal in a interior non structural location ,which this appears to be, not so much.

I can't even begin to imagine how you could look at a wall that has a beam carrying the 2nd floor sitting directly on top of it, and somehow deem that a non structural location. That corner of those two walls is very clearly a load bearing wall, and those top plates must be overlapped. Top plates must always overlap it doesn't matter if the wall is load bearing or not. This isn't a concept that's only done sometimes, it's done every single time no exceptions. The purpose of the overlap is to lock the entire building together, whether that particular wall is load bearing or not is irrelevant.

said by BrewBoy5:

Before you listen to a bunch of self righteous jack wagons from the internet I would talk to your contractor and resolve your concerns.

One of the problems with this forum is we have a lot of people who have no experience whatsoever in a field but they jump right in and give bad advice. The part of your post I quoted above would be a good example of that. I personally have extensive framing experience having framed several new construction houses, and dozens more in partial remodel situations. I am completely qualified to look at these framing pictures and point out things that are wrong or explain how things should be done.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

said by Ken:

One of the problems with this forum is we have a lot of people who have no experience whatsoever in a field but they jump right in and give bad advice.

+1

BrewBoy5

join:2002-04-28
reply to Ken

Bad advice??? Really Ken?? Then why do mills make 94 1/8 precut studs? Let me answer that for you. Because in interior non load bearing situations double top plates are not required, (In many jurisdictions). So my question is, Ken, with that new knowledge, go ahead and google that if you want, how is one supposed to lap the plates" every single time no exceptions."? Yeah, I didn't think so.

Secondly, with your experience of framing "several" houses, you should have looked at that picture and realized that is most likely a stairwell wall, the question should be asked if that is the case and if so is that wall going to be cut down to the angle of the stair? If that is the case would it not make more sense not to lap those plates?
Well look at that!! Something Ken did not think about!

And I stand by what I said, before you listen to a bunch of self righteous jack wagons from the internet I would talk to your contractor and resolve your concerns.



VioletVenom
Lets go Gators
Premium
join:2002-01-02
Gainesville, FL

1 recommendation

I've been a carpenter for over 20 years, every phase of residential construction. I've followed Ken and nunya's advice in these forums for a long time. I've never seen an instance where they don't know what they are talking about. In this case they are right on the money (per usual). Trolling this forum isn't helping the OP with their problems.


BrewBoy5

join:2002-04-28
reply to BrewBoy5

Here is the code for top plates Ken, 2308.9.2.1, 2009 IBC which further states that single plates are allowed on bearing and exterior walls when joists / rafters fall within one inch of a stud. So again how does one go about overlapping the plates "every single time no exceptions."?

If you don't mind I'm going to use your quote.
One of the problems with this forum is we have a lot of people who have no experience whatsoever in a field but they jump right in and give bad advice. I personally have extensive framing experience having framed several HUNDRED new construction houses.



Cho Baka
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·Cogeco Cable

Neither Ken nor anyone else is advocating building to a minimum spec as you have provided.

In the photos shown, it is very clear that what was done is shoddy/halfassed.

I'm surprised anyone would stick up for workmanship like this.
Would you build your own house like this?

--
The talented hawk speaks French.



Msradell
P.E.
Premium
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY
reply to VioletVenom

said by VioletVenom:

I've been a carpenter for over 20 years, every phase of residential construction. I've followed Ken and nunya's advice in these forums for a long time. I've never seen an instance where they don't know what they are talking about. In this case they are right on the money (per usual). Trolling this forum isn't helping the OP with their problems.

+1 They certainly provide clear and concise information. As stated elsewhere they provide information for doing something that not only meets code but exceeds it. Something everyone should strive for instead of trying to get by with the minimum.


Ken
Premium,MVM
join:2003-06-16
Markle, IN

1 edit

1 recommendation

reply to BrewBoy5

I think I was quite clear. Double top plates have to overlap. Your rebuttal is how do you overlap on single top plates? Refer back to my original statement, double top plates have to overlap. Obviously if you don't have double top plates you can't overlap them. Single top plates is very uncommon. I have never seen it used with any regularity in custom homes or production tract homes. The few times I have seen it used are people going for energy efficiency and the elimination of the 2nd top plate gives you a more efficient wall. Usually on these types of walls they are also eliminating the jack studs as well. All of this requires special metal connectors which cost more than the studs they are replacing. So nobody is doing it to save money, they pay more to use less wood so the wall will be more efficient.

Your theory about that being a stairwell wall is a good one for the most part. You think the top plates don't overlap because they are going to come back and cut the wall down in height to open the stairwell to the adjoining room. The stairwell obviously can't start at that door shown and go up as it would look stupid to have a framed opening with header and then an angled wall next to it. The only likely conclusion would be the stair starts from the right and goes up stopping just above the beam. The doorway pictured would then be a closet under the stairs or the basement stairs. The problem with this is the wall would be cut down on the right side, the left side would be full height by the time it got to the beam. Meaning you could still tie in the double top plates, in fact it would be even more important since the wall isn't connected at the top. With all that said I've certainly never seen anyone build a stair wall and come back later to cut the angle. Everytime I've done it or seen it done the angled walls are built after the stairs are in. Why take the time to build a wall and then come back and modify it? It's a waste of time.

I don't believe that you have personally framed hundreds of houses. You don't seem to understand that a rim joist is not there just for compression from above, but also to stop lateral twisting of the joists. The kerf cuts as they have them would allow the joists to twist in one direction, that's why it isn't right. You believe that overlapping top joints is only ideal and not a requirement. You think the joists aren't nailed into the joist hangers, but from what I can tell it sure looks like they are. You might be someone who has been on a construction site but you certainly don't show the understanding of someone who has personally framed hundreds of houses.



Coma
Thanks Steve
Premium
join:2001-12-30
NirvanaLand

said by Ken:

You think the joists aren't nailed into the joist hangers, but from what I can tell it sure looks like they are.


Ken, I enlarged the shot with the joist hangers and it appears to me that the joist are not yet nailed and the hangers are held in place with one nail on each side.

--
September is National Blueberry Popsicle Month


Ken
Premium,MVM
join:2003-06-16
Markle, IN

I didn't try to enlarge them, so maybe I should have. At first glance it certainly looked like nail heads are present. If they aren't nailed then ignore what I said earlier regarding that.


Hellrazor

join:2002-02-02
Abyss, PA
reply to rbnice1

said by rbnice1:

They are nailed into the joist hanger......

Get orange spray paint and spray an X on anything they screw up.


rbnice1

join:2000-12-16
Fenton, MO

I was incorrect. after enlarging the picture the joists are "NOT" nailed in so we will see how they do it on Tuesday. The hangers are nailed in. I will be onsite and will have a talk with them.

As far as the double sill it is in fact at the top of the stairs leading to the basement, with a doorway there. The wall will not be cut down and because it is load baring it should have been overlapped on both sides of the short wall.

Thanks for everyone's information!


BrewBoy5

join:2002-04-28

I showed the pictures to my structural engineer today. Concerning the rim joist he said it is not an issue, as I said, it is a compression load and the majority of the weight is transferred to the joists anyway. As far as the top plates, he said it's up to the inspector to determine it a steel tie strap would be required, there is not enough information in the pictures make a judgement. By the way he is a licensed structural engineer in Oregon, Washington, Idaho and Colorado.



Ken
Premium,MVM
join:2003-06-16
Markle, IN

I don't know any structural engineers that would look at a picture and tell you something is ok or not. Way to much liability on them to do something like that.



rbnice1

join:2000-12-16
Fenton, MO

So... I looked at a couple of the other houses that are that same floor plan as mine today and talked to the carpenters. They told me the rim joist kerfs are normal they do it all the time. I still don't like it and since its to late to change it, i will be adding gussets on the inside of the house to add lateral support.

As to the top plate lapping. They lapped all the outer walls and the wall that is normally the load bearing wall for that support. Looking at one of the other houses the wall that is running parallel to the steel beam is not under it. I am trying to get the blueprints to see why my wall is off. It is not just my wall that is off but 2 other houses as well.

I am not sure if I am making sense.. with out seeing it in person it is hard to describe.



whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
kudos:9

2 recommendations

reply to Ken

said by Ken:

I don't know any structural engineers that would look at a picture and tell you something is ok or not. Way to much liability on them to do something like that.

I would have to disagree. No contract, documentation or stamp; just commenting to a friend on a photo = zero liability. I don't know of any engineers who would not do that; its completely common.

Sorry to be a jackwagon, but regardless of your differing opinions, suggest you guys focus on the project rather than insulting all of the forum posters, inflated resumes that we can't check & who can piss further, higher and straighter. I appreciate both of your opinions and am learning something here. Lets keep it technical.


Ken
Premium,MVM
join:2003-06-16
Markle, IN

Fair enough



Ken
Premium,MVM
join:2003-06-16
Markle, IN

1 recommendation

reply to rbnice1

said by rbnice1:

They told me the rim joist kerfs are normal they do it all the time.

I'm sure they do it all the time, but that doesn't change the fact it's just poor workmanship. If they let the lumber guy know not to send out junk wood like that they would have to come up with work arounds. It's really just laziness more than anything.

said by rbnice1:

As to the top plate lapping. They lapped all the outer walls and the wall that is normally the load bearing wall for that support. Looking at one of the other houses the wall that is running parallel to the steel beam is not under it. I am trying to get the blueprints to see why my wall is off. It is not just my wall that is off but 2 other houses as well.

Usually the builder will have a standard plan and then optional upgrades for it. Usually a common upgrade will be to move the back wall out 2' or something similar. Perhaps you and the other 2 houses either have the same upgrade over standard, or you have standard and all the others have the upgrade. Might not be the back wall either, a garden tub upgrade also will bump an interior wall over a bit.

kherr
Premium
join:2000-09-04
Collinsville, IL
Reviews:
·Charter

As far as sending junk wood, if you need enough of one size, they'll just send out an entire bundle right off of their rack and never pick out individual boards. Been there done that. It is then up to you to bad order individual boards. Usually you buy precuts by the bundle. When using the same size floor joists on a two story house(as it may be for this instance) they probably need enough to use an entire bundle.

As for as getting good individual boards, the only way to ensure good stock is to pick it out yourself. The yard has no time to hand pick 40 of one size., 20 of another, 30 of yet another .... and so on. They load many delivery trucks in a day. At best they'll throw aside the obvious ones. If they continue to send out junk, time to change your source.

I only know first hand where the builder was assured of good individual boards, he had controlling interest in the lumber yard .....



Coma
Thanks Steve
Premium
join:2001-12-30
NirvanaLand
reply to rbnice1

said by rbnice1:

I looked at a couple of the other houses that are that same floor plan as mine today and talked to the carpenters. They told me the rim joist kerfs are normal they do it all the time.


That statement suggests that this new house is in a new housing development, is that correct ?

If so, then that also suggests that the general contractor is more of a project manager for the development and defers to the sub contractors to use best practices. At this point the general contractor does not have daily site interaction (single lot) and the entire housing development becomes a tract housing project or "Builder Grade Housing" at best.

I'm just trying to sort through the facts.

--
September is National Blueberry Popsicle Month


rbnice1

join:2000-12-16
Fenton, MO
reply to Ken

Ahhh yes. The other house that the wall and beam are slightly different does have the back wall pushed out 4 foot in the living room area.(optional upgrade.)



rbnice1

join:2000-12-16
Fenton, MO
reply to Coma

Yes this is a house being built in a neighborhood by a builder. They are building 3 other homes right now in the neighborhood, and 1 other builder is building 2 other houses as well.



AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
reply to BrewBoy5

said by BrewBoy5:

I showed the pictures to my structural engineer today. Concerning the rim joist he said it is not an issue, as I said, it is a compression load and the majority of the weight is transferred to the joists anyway. As far as the top plates, he said it's up to the inspector to determine it a steel tie strap would be required, there is not enough information in the pictures make a judgement. By the way he is a licensed structural engineer in Oregon, Washington, Idaho and Colorado.

How about the steel beam bearing?
--
--Standard disclaimers apply.--

BrewBoy5

join:2002-04-28

How about the steel beam bearing?

The OP stated in an prior post that the contractor comes back at a later date and secures and grouts the beam. Standard procedure.



Msradell
P.E.
Premium
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY

said by BrewBoy5:

How about the steel beam bearing?

The OP stated in an prior post that the contractor comes back at a later date and secures and grouts the beam. Standard procedure.

True but the shims that are now in place are not adequate even if they are going to be grouted!


rbnice1

join:2000-12-16
Fenton, MO

They added shims so it should be fine now. Just a sham they didnt have it right to begin with.


robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1

New pic?