49528867 (banned) join:2010-04-16 Fort Lauderdale, FL 1 edit
1 recommendation |
49528867 (banned)
Member
2012-Aug-27 8:48 pm
The most screwed up electrical work I have ever seen.This is a natural gas CNG pumping station, think final storage pressures of 3600 psi, well their original pump took a dump and another one had to be placed.
You gotta love when plumbers re-do explosion proof electrical work.
Wayne
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iknow Premium Member join:2012-03-25 |
iknow
Premium Member
2012-Aug-27 9:07 pm
Re: The most electrical mis-installation I have ever seen.it looks like they didn't put the new pump in yet!. so that's the way it was originally? |
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49528867 (banned) join:2010-04-16 Fort Lauderdale, FL |
49528867 (banned)
Member
2012-Aug-27 9:17 pm
No, thats the "new" pump you are looking at.
Wayne |
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tp0dyabbazooie Premium Member join:2001-02-13 Bulger, PA |
tp0d
Premium Member
2012-Aug-27 9:29 pm
im guessin they had to cut the conduit to remove the pump or motor?
whats the issue with a union in the middle? i guess it could interrupt ground, but there should be a dedicated ground anyways, and the threads on each pull fitting could eventually become corroded, and hamper ground as well..
-j |
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to 49528867
Hard to believe that's 'new'... looks like something that's been on it's last legs for the last decade or two haha Scary looking really. |
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rfnut Premium Member join:2002-04-27 Fisher, IL |
to 49528867
I always use teflon tape. Pipe dope is too messy for electrical work. |
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nunyaLXI 483 MVM join:2000-12-23 O Fallon, MO |
to 49528867
Wow. Just wow. |
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AnonEEMouse to 49528867
Anon
2012-Aug-27 10:38 pm
to 49528867
Hey, gotta give them credit, at least they used Rectorseal on the pipe threads!
Doesn't this sort of thing have to be inspected?
Reminds me of something I wish I had pictures of, not as deadly but pretty ridiculous. I was tracing upstream noise on a node, we had finally got it pinned to one block, but it was intermittent, so pretty hard to track. At this point we were trying to narrow down where the problem was when I noticed a pretty good sized HF antenna on one house, so naturally I checked there first. I was walking back to the pole and at the same time I noticed the house had a no DMARC, but had (white!) cable running from the pole into the roof with a P-TRAP being used as a weatherhead and regular PVC going into the attic! he had even went through the trouble of putting a lead boot on the abortion! Get up to the pole, lo and behold what I suspected was true, theft of service. To top it all off, he even broke one port of the tap completely off trying to get the locking F terminator off! Needless to say, once the tap was replaced and his clusterf&ck disconnected, the noise went away.
Never ceases to amaze me the stuff I see "professionals" and DIY'ers do... |
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nunyaLXI 483 MVM join:2000-12-23 O Fallon, MO ·Charter
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to tp0d
That's a Class 1 Division 1 location. The LB's and union obviously do not belong in this picture. They essentially turned the $2,000 explosion-proof control box into a potential "bomb". I know they are explosion-proof from the outside. Not to sure about the inside. |
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tp0dyabbazooie Premium Member join:2001-02-13 Bulger, PA 1 edit |
tp0d
Premium Member
2012-Aug-28 8:42 am
yea it does look like they added the 90° pull boxes (LB's?)
surprised the gas co let someone like this work on their stuff.. hmm
-j |
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sk1939 Premium Member join:2010-10-23 Frederick, MD ARRIS SB8200 Ubiquiti UDM-Pro Juniper SRX320
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sk1939
Premium Member
2012-Aug-28 1:20 pm
said by tp0d:yea it does look like they added the 90° pull boxes (LB's?)
surprised the gas co let someone like this work on their stuff.. hmm
-j Low bidders generally win contracts. |
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67845017 (banned) join:2000-12-17 Naperville, IL
1 recommendation |
to 49528867
Re: The most screwed up electrical work I have ever seen.It's gotta be asked and I'm willing to take the lumps.
So, what's exactly wrong with it? |
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leibold MVM join:2002-07-09 Sunnyvale, CA Netgear CG3000DCR ZyXEL P-663HN-51
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said by 67845017:So, what's exactly wrong with it? The metallic conduit is supposed to provide a continuous safety ground. Using teflon tape on the conduit joints prevents electrical contact. This in turn allows parts of the conduit to become electrically charged possibly leading to sparks from one part of the conduit to another. |
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The PigI know you want to be me Premium Member join:2009-09-11 |
to 49528867
I'm with Goober What does the pipe have to do with the wires inside it? Unless water is getting in the pipe I don't see a problem! Wasn't the pump inspected after it was installed by an inspector? Are you saying the pipe is a ground? |
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leibold MVM join:2002-07-09 Sunnyvale, CA Netgear CG3000DCR ZyXEL P-663HN-51
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said by The Pig:Are you saying the pipe is a ground? The other way around. All exposed metallic surfaces must be bonded to the equipment grounding conductor. In other words, every section of the pipe must be grounded but the teflon tape prevents that (isolating each section). |
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67845017 (banned) join:2000-12-17 Naperville, IL |
67845017 (banned)
Member
2012-Aug-28 4:15 pm
Perfect. Thanks. |
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garys_2k Premium Member join:2004-05-07 Farmington, MI 1 edit |
to 67845017
Also, this application requires "explosion proof" fittings. Those standard LB's do not have the required ratings. |
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to leibold
said by leibold:said by 67845017:So, what's exactly wrong with it? The metallic conduit is supposed to provide a continuous safety ground. Using teflon tape on the conduit joints prevents electrical contact. This in turn allows parts of the conduit to become electrically charged possibly leading to sparks from one part of the conduit to another. The pump circuit probably and most likely has a ground wire inside the conduit bonding everything to ground. Therefore the conduit even though it has teflon tape would be grounded on either end. In such case it doesn't matter about the conduit in that case but it sure makes a difference with the explosion hazard. |
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49528867 (banned) join:2010-04-16 Fort Lauderdale, FL
4 recommendations |
to 67845017
said by 67845017:So, what's exactly wrong with it? Good question and no lumps for you, as Nunya already pointed out this is a "class/division" area which in laymans terns means an area where something flammable may be present and electrical equipment utilized in that area must be designed to be explosion proof. Now explosion proof doesnt mean the equipment utilized must be able to resist an explosion, it means should an explosion occur within the equipment the flame wall from the explosion will be contained within the equipment and not continued out of it. So lets start with the big one the control cabinet, that cabinet contains pressure switches which monitor the input pressure of the compressor about 4 psi and another cycles the compressor based on output pressure which is about 3600 psi, it also contains a contactor and some low voltage control relays. Now lets say within this finely tuned and maintained system a pressure control switch develops a pin hole leak and that leak beings to fill the control cabinet with natural gas which in turn mixes wit the air already in the cabinet, then someone connects their CNG vehicle to the device outside and drops the storage pressure as the vehicle is filled, the output pressure sensor sensing the lower pressure closes kicking in the motor contactor either of which can produce a spark igniting the gas air mixture within the cabinet. Now if this job was done properly that explosion would be contained within the cabinet and the connected conduit. But this job was redone by some jacklegs and what will happen is the plastic rain-tite run from the cabinet to the motor and a control conduit will blow off and thats good as hopefully doing so will drop the pressures a bit, because if not those LBs will explode violently and if that pipe between them nails one of those stainless steel lines on its way out of there it will unleash a 3600 psi dragon breath. Note the LBs in shot 3 are those two grey boxes one above the cabinet and the other to the right changing the direction of the large pipe from vertical to horizontal. Wayne |
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67845017 (banned) join:2000-12-17 Naperville, IL |
67845017 (banned)
Member
2012-Aug-28 6:31 pm
Very nice explanation! Thanks |
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49528867 (banned) join:2010-04-16 Fort Lauderdale, FL
1 recommendation |
to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:The pump circuit probably and most likely has a ground wire inside the conduit bonding everything to ground. Therefore the conduit even though it has teflon tape would be grounded on either end. In such case it doesn't matter about the conduit in that case but it sure makes a difference with the explosion hazard. Incorrect and heres why, by applying plumbers dope or tape to sections of conduit, those sections of metallic conduit become isolated from the grounding path and if an energized conductor within that conduit for whatever reason was to make contact within that isolated section of the conduit it would energize it and lacking a solid path to ground such a fault would fail to pull enough amperage to activate the upstream protective device and create a hazardous electrical condition. Wayne |
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What? Creative at best Wayne. We had such a problem with adverse environmental conditions, rust, corrosion etc that the physical electrical integrity of the threaded connections could not be guaranteed. Thus all our circuits and motor feeders had to have a ground wire pulled in. We even had PVC inserted in some places in a regular rigid galvanized conduit run and Stainless Steel conduit. Neither a good conductor. Agree?
BTW you said that was the "Most screwed up electrical work you have ever seen" That is good compared to some I've seen. |
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49528867 (banned) join:2010-04-16 Fort Lauderdale, FL 2 edits |
49528867 (banned)
Member
2012-Aug-28 7:10 pm
Plumbers dope aside... Jack what I posted is based on the NEC not creativity... Ever heard of concentric knockouts? Based on my already posted comments, any idea of the code requirements if one was to run a metallic conduit from a meter can to a breaker panel if either of those metallic cans have concentric knockouts??? And if you do, then why do you think the code requires a grounding bushing on that metallic conduit when it is already being connected to two well grounded metallic cabinets??? Himmm. We had such a problem with adverse environmental conditions, rust, corrosion etc that the physical electrical integrity of the threaded connections could not be guaranteed. Thus all our circuits and motor feeders had to have a ground wire pulled in. We even had PVC inserted in some places in a regular rigid galvanized conduit run and Stainless Steel conduit. Neither a good conductor. Agree What I would agree with is where you worked should have been shut down and those in charge of maintenance prosecuted for the numerous violations and hazardous conditions you just mentioned. There is NO excuse for allowing such crap to exist. Time to put the shovel away guy as the hole you are in is deep enough
Wayne |
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Can't resist an attack when someone questions you can you? Your little sanitized world is evidently no where close to the real world with real world conditions and requirements. Not a simple meter pan hookup. What's with the concentric knockouts? It was an industrial facility and fully complied with and met all applicable requirements. You would not last a week in that plant. |
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49528867 (banned) join:2010-04-16 Fort Lauderdale, FL |
49528867 (banned)
Member
2012-Aug-28 7:30 pm
said by Jack_in_VA:Not a simple meter pan hookup. It was an industrial facility and fully complied with and met all applicable requirements. Based on what you already posted about where you worked that seems not possible... To me what you described sounds like a plant that belongs in a third world county where the cost of an incident is weighed low against corporate profit. Kinda like the Dow Chemical incident in Bhopal
Wayne |
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harald join:2010-10-22 Columbus, OH |
to 49528867
I'm surprised that no one has commented on the "field redesign". The control box has been turned 90 degrees from its original location. Who knows how they handled all the gas and electrical connections. |
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49528867 (banned) join:2010-04-16 Fort Lauderdale, FL 1 edit |
to Jack_in_VA
250.100 Bonding in Hazardous (Classified) Locations. Regardless of the voltage of the electrical system, the electrical continuity of noncurrent-carrying metal parts of equipment, raceways, and other enclosures in any hazardous (classified) location as defined in Article 500 shall be ensured by any of the methods specified in 250.92(B)(2) through (B)(4) that are approved for the wiring method used. One or more of these bonding methods shall be used whether or not supplementary equipment grounding conductors are installed. Note the use of the term shall because in the code shall means something important. 250.92 Services. (B) Method of Bonding at the Service. Electrical continuity at service equipment, service raceways, and service conductor enclosures shall be ensured by one of the following methods: (1) Bonding equipment to the grounded service conductor in a manner provided in 250.8 (2) Connections utilizing threaded couplings or threaded bosses on enclosures where made up wrenchtight (3) Threadless couplings and connectors where made up tight for metal raceways and metal-clad cables (4) Other listed devices, such as bonding-type locknuts, bushings, or bushings with bonding jumpers Wayne |
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49528867 |
to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:What's with the concentric knockouts? It was an example of how important a good path to ground is and the fact that even though a concentric knockout provides a metallic connection it is insufficient to be trusted to handle fault currents. Now if a concentric knockout is insufficient, doped up threads are truly insufficient. 250.92 Services. Bonding jumpers meeting the other requirements of this article shall be used around concentric or eccentric knockouts that are punched or otherwise formed so as to impair the electrical connection to ground. Standard locknuts or bushings shall not be the sole means for the bonding required by this section. Wayne |
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19579823 (banned)An Awesome Dude join:2003-08-04 |
to 49528867
Yup its sickening..... People do the shittiest jobs they can BUT STILL WANT THE SAME PRICE FOR GOOD WORK! |
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