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I_H8_Spam
join:2004-03-10
St Catharines, ON

I_H8_Spam

Member

Daily Fluctuation in Gasoline Prices

So I was listening to a talk station on radio last night. A caller claimed that Canada is the only country that allows gasoline to fluctuate daily with the refiner price, most other jurisdictions allow price changing on delivery.

I've been googling but can't corroborated or disapprove this. I know from my experience prices tend to be stabler in the Niagara NY area when compared to Niagara Ont. I've seen 10 cent swings in Canada, while the US doesn't even adjust.

joeblow3
join:2000-12-27
h0h0h0

joeblow3

Member

I_H8_Spam:
"fluctuate daily with the refiner price"

We all know this is not the case. It certainly wasn't the "refiner" price that made the price jump 3.4 cents/litre last night.

USA prices do adjust not sure if it's as much as ours but certainly on a wimm like ours.

Just look at this site for historical USA pricing:
»gasbuddy.com/gb_retail_p ··· art.aspx

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues

Premium Member

They're hosing us big time in Toronto, it's 10c/ltre more expensive here then somewhere like Peterborough.

Same fuel, same refinery, but a higher delivery cost, yet the price is more expensive in Toronto.

We need serious regulation on the price of gas, the gouging that is going on is affecting everything.

I_H8_Spam
join:2004-03-10
St Catharines, ON

I_H8_Spam

Member

Click for full size
»www.GasBuddy.com/gb_reta ··· units=us

Higher Taxes that scapegoat isn't floating any more

HiVolt
Premium Member
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON

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It's all Isaac's fault... All this bullshit started with Katrina. Then Rita a month later, the prices went skyhigh and absolutely nothing happened.

I_H8_Spam
join:2004-03-10
St Catharines, ON

I_H8_Spam

Member

Keep drinking that industry koolaid, NA demand is low compared to pre-2008 and beyond.

Canada has allowed the gas companies to use FIFO pegged to the mean value of IPE and Nymex spot futures, absolute carnage of our wallets

donoreo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON

donoreo to elwoodblues

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said by elwoodblues:

They're hosing us big time in Toronto, it's 10c/ltre more expensive here then somewhere like Peterborough.

Same fuel, same refinery, but a higher delivery cost, yet the price is more expensive in Toronto.

We need serious regulation on the price of gas, the gouging that is going on is affecting everything.

When I go to visit my mom, I always have just enough gas to get there and fill up in Port Hope or Cobourg.

creed3020
Premium Member
join:2006-04-26
Kitchener, ON

creed3020 to elwoodblues

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to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:

They're hosing us big time in Toronto, it's 10c/ltre more expensive here then somewhere like Peterborough.

Same fuel, same refinery, but a higher delivery cost, yet the price is more expensive in Toronto.

We need serious regulation on the price of gas, the gouging that is going on is affecting everything.

Agreed.

Personally I call it the GTA tax because the price is bloody fixed across the whole GTA.

The only time I see a break in price is out here in Kitchener, or up in cottage country where the price is regularly 3-7 cents cheaper than in the city, Kitchener included.

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

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Click for full size
Stop whining.

I_H8_Spam
join:2004-03-10
St Catharines, ON

I_H8_Spam

Member

said by Guspaz:

Stop whining.

I don't pay for Canadian gas unless it is inconvenient for me to cross. That graph is really interesting, how is Montreal priced? It basically follows the trends of the market, but is much more volatile.

You can predict reasonably the high/low peaks every 72 hours at the current trending.

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

Guspaz to I_H8_Spam

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The prices are set however the gas stations want to set them. The fact that there are only two sources for gas in Montreal (a Suncor refinery in Montreal, and an Ultramar refinery in Quebec City) doesn't help. The uniform shifts where all gas stations change prices simultaneously are likely due to collusion.

nitzguy
Premium Member
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON

nitzguy

Premium Member

said by Guspaz:

The prices are set however the gas stations want to set them. The fact that there are only two sources for gas in Montreal (a Suncor refinery in Montreal, and an Ultramar refinery in Quebec City) doesn't help. The uniform shifts where all gas stations change prices simultaneously are likely due to collusion.

That's how it seems to work in Sudbury....our prices will spike up...then drift down down down and then spike up even worse...etc etc...

Just for kicks I guess I was lucky, filled up on Monday at 133.9 ....then for no apparent reason the next day, price goes up to 136.9 ...I've noticed lately though the price hasn't been falling as it had been at 133.9 for about a week.

Where did you guys get your fancy graphs from?

FaxCap
join:2002-05-25
Surrey, BC

FaxCap to I_H8_Spam

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to I_H8_Spam

»www.GasBuddy.com/gb_reta ··· units=ca
Snapped 2012-08-29 20:34:43

I_H8_Spam
join:2004-03-10
St Catharines, ON

I_H8_Spam to nitzguy

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to nitzguy
said by nitzguy:

Where did you guys get your fancy graphs from?

Gasbuddy.com

They keep historical data for the past 8 years. Scary to see the historical "crash" in 2008 and the gas price crash following. Looking at the way the chart is trending again, it makes you wonder if another correction is coming.
said by FaxCap:


»www.GasBuddy.com/gb_reta ··· units=ca
Snapped 2012-08-29 20:34:43

That is interesting, given the crazy taxes in the GVRD why is Vancouver bucking the trend? New refinery maybe?

digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium Member
join:2000-07-15
GTA

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Total state and federal taxes in Buffalo are USD 0.66 per US gallon.

Total provincial and federal taxes in Ontario are USD 1.06 per US gallon.

The scapegoat still floats.

andyb
Premium Member
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario

andyb

Premium Member

Thats 40 cents difference.There over a dollar difference at the pump

I_H8_Spam
join:2004-03-10
St Catharines, ON

I_H8_Spam to digitalfutur

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I was incorrect earlier, gasoline is priced on a LIFO model not FIFO.

Gas taxes aside, yes Ontario/Canada is higher but the pegging to the daily closing of IPE/Nymex is where I draw a line.

Events like Issac have no local price bearing to delivered gasoline sitting in a station tank, has no price bearing to gasoline sitting in a tanker truck for delivery. However the gasoline industry prices just like that.

The whole system stinks, and I cannot locate another market where price fluctuation occur daily.

yeah
@videotron.ca

yeah to Guspaz

Anon

to Guspaz
Montreal will always have a higher price. Montreal and the suburbs have a special 10-cents/L tax that goes to the city of Montreal. As soon as you leave about a 100-km area (or more) outside of MTL the price drops 10-cents/L

They Mayor wanted more money, so he got the tax, but then complained that people would fill up outside of MTL. So they applied this tax for a certain and specific area.

So Montreal will always be higher by 10-cents. The rest of the mark-up... well... collusion.
peterboro (banned)
Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned) to elwoodblues

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said by elwoodblues:

They're hosing us big time in Toronto, it's 10c/ltre more expensive here then somewhere like Peterborough.

That's because I like to drive around in my big supercharged V8 that gets about 5 miles to the gallon and well it just wouldn't be fair that I pay more.

Besides everyone in Toronto deserves to pay more and it is one of those little things in life that I find quite enjoyable.
DanteX
join:2010-09-09

1 edit

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Just like Walmart , the gasoline companies rake in billions yet the people who work at the stores get barely minimum wage and probally have to rely on food stamps just to survive while the ceo makes upwards of 8000 dollars an hour

Thingamajig
Premium Member
join:2004-11-03
B.C.

Thingamajig

Premium Member

said by DanteX:

Just like Walmart , the gasoline companies rake in billions yet the people who work at the stores get barley minimum wage and probally have to rely on food stamps just to survive while the ceo makes upwards of 8000 dollars an hour

You sayin' they get beer with their minimum wage? Ontario! What a province!

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

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And here we have th reason for the last price increase :

Prices up tonight in light of Hurricane Isaac and the Venezuelan refinery fire ... as we suggested would be the case last Saturday

From TGPT.CA

OOH a fire in a Venezuelan refinery, quick there will be a shortage in Venezula, jack up North American prices. Again this is why we need regulation and how the free market doesn't work. They're using any kind of reason to jack prices up.

I_H8_Spam
join:2004-03-10
St Catharines, ON

I_H8_Spam

Member

said by elwoodblues:

They're using any kind of reason to jack prices up.

Exactly my point. While those factors can influence the wholesale pricing of gasoline at the markets. What burns me is that the oil company can claim the fact that a storm in the gulf and a fire in Latin America suddenly increases the value of already delivered gasoline in a stations tanks, gasoline in a tanker truck, gasoline in a regional storage facility. Gasoline that was hydrocracked weeks before and is at the end of the retail chain.

I still cannot locate another region in the world that adjust daily using the price average of the NYMEX/IPE daily closing.

nitzguy
Premium Member
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON

nitzguy

Premium Member

said by I_H8_Spam:

said by elwoodblues:

They're using any kind of reason to jack prices up.

Exactly my point. While those factors can influence the wholesale pricing of gasoline at the markets. What burns me is that the oil company can claim the fact that a storm in the gulf and a fire in Latin America suddenly increases the value of already delivered gasoline in a stations tanks, gasoline in a tanker truck, gasoline in a regional storage facility. Gasoline that was hydrocracked weeks before and is at the end of the retail chain.

I still cannot locate another region in the world that adjust daily using the price average of the NYMEX/IPE daily closing.

Without getting political, does any other region have NAFTA?...

Me thinks not.....we are required under NAFTA to sell our oil at whatever the spot market price is, truth is...its cheaper to refine the oil into gas in Canada than it is in the US....but since we have to sell it to them, its at whatever the market will bear...and that's life my friends.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues

Premium Member

This has nothing to do with Nafta, all Nafta prescribes is that we cannot short the Americans unless we short ourselves.

World prices (spot or not) are determined by the market, and of course the market will pick the most expensive price. The Brent Spot is almost $10/bbl more then the WTI or Nymex prices.

But as we've seen the price of oil and the price of gasoline are now completely independent of each other.

andyb
Premium Member
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario

andyb

Premium Member

Funny thing is not many actually buy oil from the market.They make contracts with companies to supply them and hammer out a price during negotiations.

And Canadian oil sells for about 15 to 20 bucks cheaper than WTI but we pay for gasoline based on Brent price

I_H8_Spam
join:2004-03-10
St Catharines, ON

I_H8_Spam

Member

said by andyb:

And Canadian oil sells for about 15 to 20 bucks cheaper than WTI but we pay for gasoline based on Brent price

Actually gasoline is not tied to Brent, it's priced from the higher of the two markets.

RBOB gasoline - Nymex
RBOB Gasoline - (IPE)-ICE

Whoever sets the higher price at closing, sets the benchmark our oil companies gouge us with the next day.

nitzguy
Premium Member
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON

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said by elwoodblues:

This has nothing to do with Nafta, all Nafta prescribes is that we cannot short the Americans unless we short ourselves.

World prices (spot or not) are determined by the market, and of course the market will pick the most expensive price. The Brent Spot is almost $10/bbl more then the WTI or Nymex prices.

But as we've seen the price of oil and the price of gasoline are now completely independent of each other.

Exactly...so why sell to Canadians when I can sell to an American and make more profit?

If you break out the cost of gasoline minus taxes, you'll see that Americans are paying more per litre/gallon vs. canadians...

And that's life.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues

Premium Member

We don't make more profit, the price is the same. If I sell to the Americans for say $1/bbl I can't sell it to Canadians for say 50c/bbl NAFTA won't allow that.
petecool
join:2011-09-22
Calgary, AB

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Try adding Calgary to those graphs...

Not only is it lower (expected) but much more stable.

I spent winter there, gas prices change once a week on average...

So it's not "the way it is in Canada", more like the gas companies want to mess with us and local governments let it happen