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Thingamajig
Premium
join:2004-11-03
B.C.
reply to DanteX

Re: Daily Fluctuation in Gasoline Prices

said by DanteX:

Just like Walmart , the gasoline companies rake in billions yet the people who work at the stores get barley minimum wage and probally have to rely on food stamps just to survive while the ceo makes upwards of 8000 dollars an hour

You sayin' they get beer with their minimum wage? Ontario! What a province!
--
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elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
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reply to I_H8_Spam
And here we have th reason for the last price increase :

Prices up tonight in light of Hurricane Isaac and the Venezuelan refinery fire ... as we suggested would be the case last Saturday

From TGPT.CA

OOH a fire in a Venezuelan refinery, quick there will be a shortage in Venezula, jack up North American prices. Again this is why we need regulation and how the free market doesn't work. They're using any kind of reason to jack prices up.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......


I_H8_Spam

join:2004-03-10
St Catharines, ON
said by elwoodblues:

They're using any kind of reason to jack prices up.

Exactly my point. While those factors can influence the wholesale pricing of gasoline at the markets. What burns me is that the oil company can claim the fact that a storm in the gulf and a fire in Latin America suddenly increases the value of already delivered gasoline in a stations tanks, gasoline in a tanker truck, gasoline in a regional storage facility. Gasoline that was hydrocracked weeks before and is at the end of the retail chain.

I still cannot locate another region in the world that adjust daily using the price average of the NYMEX/IPE daily closing.
--
AFK: Attack, fight, kill!! The healer is telling you to go pull mobs.
WTF: Way to fight! The healer is applauding your tactical genius


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
said by I_H8_Spam:

said by elwoodblues:

They're using any kind of reason to jack prices up.

Exactly my point. While those factors can influence the wholesale pricing of gasoline at the markets. What burns me is that the oil company can claim the fact that a storm in the gulf and a fire in Latin America suddenly increases the value of already delivered gasoline in a stations tanks, gasoline in a tanker truck, gasoline in a regional storage facility. Gasoline that was hydrocracked weeks before and is at the end of the retail chain.

I still cannot locate another region in the world that adjust daily using the price average of the NYMEX/IPE daily closing.

Without getting political, does any other region have NAFTA?...

Me thinks not.....we are required under NAFTA to sell our oil at whatever the spot market price is, truth is...its cheaper to refine the oil into gas in Canada than it is in the US....but since we have to sell it to them, its at whatever the market will bear...and that's life my friends.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
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This has nothing to do with Nafta, all Nafta prescribes is that we cannot short the Americans unless we short ourselves.

World prices (spot or not) are determined by the market, and of course the market will pick the most expensive price. The Brent Spot is almost $10/bbl more then the WTI or Nymex prices.

But as we've seen the price of oil and the price of gasoline are now completely independent of each other.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......


andyb
Premium
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario
kudos:1
Funny thing is not many actually buy oil from the market.They make contracts with companies to supply them and hammer out a price during negotiations.

And Canadian oil sells for about 15 to 20 bucks cheaper than WTI but we pay for gasoline based on Brent price


I_H8_Spam

join:2004-03-10
St Catharines, ON
said by andyb:

And Canadian oil sells for about 15 to 20 bucks cheaper than WTI but we pay for gasoline based on Brent price

Actually gasoline is not tied to Brent, it's priced from the higher of the two markets.

RBOB gasoline - Nymex
RBOB Gasoline - (IPE)-ICE

Whoever sets the higher price at closing, sets the benchmark our oil companies gouge us with the next day.
--
AFK: Attack, fight, kill!! The healer is telling you to go pull mobs.
WTF: Way to fight! The healer is applauding your tactical genius


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
reply to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:

This has nothing to do with Nafta, all Nafta prescribes is that we cannot short the Americans unless we short ourselves.

World prices (spot or not) are determined by the market, and of course the market will pick the most expensive price. The Brent Spot is almost $10/bbl more then the WTI or Nymex prices.

But as we've seen the price of oil and the price of gasoline are now completely independent of each other.

Exactly...so why sell to Canadians when I can sell to an American and make more profit?

If you break out the cost of gasoline minus taxes, you'll see that Americans are paying more per litre/gallon vs. canadians...

And that's life.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
We don't make more profit, the price is the same. If I sell to the Americans for say $1/bbl I can't sell it to Canadians for say 50c/bbl NAFTA won't allow that.

petecool

join:2011-09-22
Calgary, AB
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Videotron
reply to I_H8_Spam
Try adding Calgary to those graphs...

Not only is it lower (expected) but much more stable.

I spent winter there, gas prices change once a week on average...

So it's not "the way it is in Canada", more like the gas companies want to mess with us and local governments let it happen


I_H8_Spam

join:2004-03-10
St Catharines, ON
Click for full size
Very true, Calgary is a much flatter price profile; I doubt the price is pegged to a daily fluctuations in market pricing.

There is also a lot of independent/regional stations if I recall, not the near total Petro/Pioneer/Esso domination seen in Ontario.
--
AFK: Attack, fight, kill!! The healer is telling you to go pull mobs.
WTF: Way to fight! The healer is applauding your tactical genius


digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2
reply to elwoodblues
Prices tomorrow will be no higher than they were Monday, before the fire and Isaac.

Regulation of gas prices does not result in lower average cost for consumers, because of the time lag in government approval of increases and decreases.
--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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Somewhere in
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reply to I_H8_Spam
You are right, the lag in approvals is slow, but at the same time, this perverse LIFO game they play will be nipped in the bud. A fire in Venezuela has ZERO to do with the price of gas in Toronto, except in the minds of those best poised to take advantage of it!
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No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......

petecool

join:2011-09-22
Calgary, AB
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Videotron
reply to digitalfutur
said by digitalfutur:

Regulation of gas prices does not result in lower average cost for consumers, because of the time lag in government approval of increases and decreases.

What kind of price regulation do you have in Ontario?

All we have in Montreal/Quebec (see crazy graph a couple posts up) is _minimum_ price regulation, there's no maximum!

It's a legacy of an end of 1990's price war of the big gas companies trying to close the "independents" by selling gas cheaper to consumers than to the independent gas stations.

Provincial government was so slow to implement it, there's only 2 or 3 chains of independent gas stations left, and they all have the same prices as the big ones.

Also, government isn't doing anything about all the gas stations, no matter the company, all changing prices at the same exact time in the same area, every time there's a price change. Every 10km north from Montreal, gives you one more hour before the price changes. No way that could happen without collusion but good luck getting proof!


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
No price regulation in Ontario, it's a free market to gouge consumers.


Mashiki
Balking The Enemy's Plans

join:2002-02-04
Woodstock, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
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said by elwoodblues:

No price regulation in Ontario, it's a free market to gouge consumers.

There are only two or three distributors of fuel in Ontario, much like Quebec. In turn, we get the same pillaging at the pumps. Anyone who has a problem with it can thank McGuinty for approving them eating up all the small suppliers.


BonezX
Basement Dweller
Premium
join:2004-04-13
Canada
kudos:1
reply to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:

And here we have th reason for the last price increase :

Prices up tonight in light of Hurricane Isaac and the Venezuelan refinery fire ... as we suggested would be the case last Saturday

From TGPT.CA

OOH a fire in a Venezuelan refinery, quick there will be a shortage in Venezula, jack up North American prices. Again this is why we need regulation and how the free market doesn't work. They're using any kind of reason to jack prices up.

um, look at the price in Nova Scotia, i believe we are going into the 140+ range tomorrow(were at 134.x, we were in the 120's 3 weeks ago) and it will most likely sit there or drop back to ~130 then back up over 140.

the worst part, that's REGULATED, what makes it even worse, we are paying taxes on taxes.

the way the math "works"
(cost+10cFed+15cprov)*1.15=cost

the way it's legally supposed to work
(cost*1.15)+10cFed+15cProv=cost

you would be surprised how much extra money the province is making in taxes because of that little bit of fuzzy math.


Last Parade

join:2002-10-07
Port Colborne, ON
reply to I_H8_Spam
Filled up for 3.69 in Buffalo today.


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
reply to Mashiki
said by Mashiki:

said by elwoodblues:

No price regulation in Ontario, it's a free market to gouge consumers.

There are only two or three distributors of fuel in Ontario, much like Quebec. In turn, we get the same pillaging at the pumps. Anyone who has a problem with it can thank McGuinty for approving them eating up all the small suppliers.

...There used to be another distributor...turns out some new regulations that came in caused that refinery to close..in Oakville....and now there are houses there....

So, its not a matter of eating the small suppliers, it had to do with federal regulations in regards to sulphur content in gasoline...

Anywho...


BonezX
Basement Dweller
Premium
join:2004-04-13
Canada
kudos:1
what year, they changed regs from 1999 at 320ppm to 30ppm by 2005 or so.

they might have been handed a decent sum of money to "go away"


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
Reviews:
·VMedia
reply to nitzguy
said by nitzguy:

said by Mashiki:

said by elwoodblues:

No price regulation in Ontario, it's a free market to gouge consumers.

There are only two or three distributors of fuel in Ontario, much like Quebec. In turn, we get the same pillaging at the pumps. Anyone who has a problem with it can thank McGuinty for approving them eating up all the small suppliers.

...There used to be another distributor...turns out some new regulations that came in caused that refinery to close..in Oakville....and now there are houses there....

It was Petro Canada BTW.

So, its not a matter of eating the small suppliers, it had to do with federal regulations in regards to sulphur content in gasoline...

Anywho...

I know that stretch on Southdown Rd, EWWW I'd never have bought a house there, especially if i knew there was a refinery there once. I can't imagine the land would have been "remediated" enough to get the toxins out.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
reply to BonezX
said by BonezX:

what year, they changed regs from 1999 at 320ppm to 30ppm by 2005 or so.

they might have been handed a decent sum of money to "go away"

This happenned back in 2005 I believe....they shut down the Petro Canada refinery in Oakville because it would have "Cost too much" to bring the plant up to spec to reduce the amount of sulphur content and it was "cheaper to bring it in from other refineries"...

So, we collectively shot ourselves in the foot because I don't see another Oil refinery EVER getting approval, between EAs and NIMBYs.....where would you put one?

And yes I remember it was in Oakville because I used to drive by it every single day when I lived down there....being down there recently again it was gone and I noticed a whole lotta houses and commercial development had moved in.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakville_R ··· anada%29

Ironic, we now get our gasoline from a refinery in Montreal, where somehow they pay more for the fuel than we do?? . Doesn't make any sense to me...


andyb
Premium
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario
kudos:1
We used to have about 34 refiners in Canada.Lucky if we have 10 left.Makes it easier to raise prices on "shortages" due to maintenance,fire, CEO farting etc

LastDon

join:2002-08-13
reply to HiVolt
said by HiVolt:

It's all Isaac's fault... All this bullshit started with Katrina. Then Rita a month later, the prices went skyhigh and absolutely nothing happened.

One day it is Isaac, one day it is Katrina, than the War in Iraq, than the war in Libya that outputs 1-2% of the worlds gas or something.

fu'cking excuses just to screw the customer around .

Next they will tell us they saw a dolphin near drilling site and causes damages or a camel walked into the refinery in Libya


MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to Last Parade
said by Last Parade:

Filled up for 3.69 in Buffalo today.

It's only $1.32/litre here

Canadian forum - please use metric units.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
1.24 when I rode downtown this morning.


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
reply to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

said by Last Parade:

Filled up for 3.69 in Buffalo today.

It's only $1.32/litre here

Canadian forum - please use metric units.

That would be roughly.... 0.9615 C$/Litre converted from gallons to litres and then from US (Which was 0.9749 USc/L) to Canadian..

So, beat you by about...30 cents/litre...wow...96 cents, remember when that was Expensive?

Grappler

join:2002-09-01
Ottawa, ON
reply to I_H8_Spam
$0.84/Ltr for me ($3.23/Gal), gotta love shopping at TOPS.


BonezX
Basement Dweller
Premium
join:2004-04-13
Canada
kudos:1
reply to elwoodblues
well, we are now at 1.38/l, regulated gas sucks, it should be a regulated maximum.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to I_H8_Spam
Just got back from the US, my friends were complaining about their gas prices at like $3.80 USD/gal... I pointed out that Montreal was paying almost $6 USD/gal...

Google can convert it easily, BTW... Search for "3.80 USD per gallon in CAD per litre" and it spits out "3.80 (U.S. dollars per US gallon) = 0.989496209 Canadian dollars per litre"
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