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lugnut

@look.ca
reply to Guspaz

Re: Canada to deport female U.S. war deserter

said by Guspaz:

said by elwoodblues:

So in your mind a Canadian, who has broken no Canadian laws, but has violated some ideologically driven law in the US should be handed over to the Americans?

Clearly you missed the part of his post that said "US nationals".

A Canadian, who is also an American, and has broken no Canadian laws, but who has broken some US law, yes, they should be punished... Because really you can boil that down to "an American who has broken some US law". For something like the Cuba case, those OFAC restrictions only apply to US residents, so a Canadian citizen would only be arrested in the US for violating OFAC rules if they are *living* in the US.

How did Marc Emery fit into that formula? Approached by American undercover agents in Canada and tried in absentia in a kangaroo court he's currently doing hard time in the US for selling marijuana seeds which are legal in Canada to mail order customers in the US.

If marijuana laws and the American War on Drugs are not an ideological crime I dunno what else qualifies?


A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N
said by lugnut :

How did Marc Emery fit into that formula? Approached by American undercover agents in Canada and tried in absentia in a kangaroo court he's currently doing hard time in the US for selling marijuana seeds which are legal in Canada to mail order customers in the US.

Unless you were born under a rock he would know that selling drugs (or seeds that will become drugs) to the US was going to be a huge issue. After reading about him briefly this guy almost certainly knew he was likely to get in huge crap for it. Whether you believe in legalization means nothing. Under most definitions he's a drug runner.

Anyway, you raised a huge straw man. This is about an American who broke American law and then fled to Canada to avoid the consequences.


digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2
reply to elwoodblues
Desertion is an offence in Canada as well, punishable by up to 10 years in prison.

Warez_Zealot

join:2006-04-19
Vancouver
reply to I_H8_Spam
Hmmm, well to me this isn't the same as draft doggers, but I completely agree with her stance of deserting.

1) She signed up to protect her country. I fully believe she has the right to not go and fight a war if she believes it's morally wrong or she will be put in a situation were she might have to do something that conflicts with he morals.

2) The USA has been occupying various countries lately under other guises. Lots of civilians have been murdered and sacrificed, and in general a lot of USA soldiers have been caught doing some very disguising and illegal things to people in those countries.

3)Because of people like her, I have faith in the human race. If Hitlers soldiers just deserted instead of following orders the Holocaust would not have happened. Of course I'm not drawing any parallels here, but just saying it takes a lot of courage to do what she did and if past history shows anything it's important to stick to your morals.

It's just too bad our government is tossing her to the wolves.
--
"You're not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who says it."-Malcolm X


PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
Reviews:
·callwithus
·voip.ms
said by Warez_Zealot:

Hmmm, well to me this isn't the same as draft doggers, but I completely agree with her stance of deserting.

1) She signed up to protect her country. I fully believe she has the right to not go and fight a war if she believes it's morally wrong or she will be put in a situation were she might have to do something that conflicts with he morals.

Fine, but if so she should accept the consequences of her actions.

Nelson Mandela and Mahatma Gandhi didn't flee to other countries. They did jail time (27 years for Mandela), to make their points.


dennilfloss
Liberal And Loving It
Premium
join:2001-09-09
Ottawa, ON
reply to I_H8_Spam
What about her two children who were born in Canada? They are Canadians and if the family is deported, will have to be raised in the US. Talk about punishing the innocents too.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
If they were born in Canada they can't be deported. They're Canadian citizens and have a legal right to be here. End of story.

Warez_Zealot

join:2006-04-19
Vancouver
reply to PX Eliezer70
said by PX Eliezer70:

said by Warez_Zealot:

Hmmm, well to me this isn't the same as draft doggers, but I completely agree with her stance of deserting.

1) She signed up to protect her country. I fully believe she has the right to not go and fight a war if she believes it's morally wrong or she will be put in a situation were she might have to do something that conflicts with he morals.

Fine, but if so she should accept the consequences of her actions.

Nelson Mandela and Mahatma Gandhi didn't flee to other countries. They did jail time (27 years for Mandela), to make their points.

They were political martyrs.. Kinda comparing apples to oranges to me.

Anyhow, I hope she goes into hiding. What our government is trying to do is pretty immoral to me. I'm sure there are a few women's groups willing to come to her/her kids aid and keep her from getting deported.
--
"You're not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who says it."-Malcolm X



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to A Lurker
said by A Lurker:

Unless you were born under a rock he would know that selling drugs (or seeds that will become drugs) to the US was going to be a huge issue. After reading about him briefly this guy almost certainly knew he was likely to get in huge crap for it. Whether you believe in legalization means nothing. Under most definitions he's a drug runner.

He's not a drug runner. He sold seeds, something that while illegal in Canada is rarely prosecuted and only subject to a fine and by no means considered the same thing under Canadian law as actually selling the grown product. The situation is complicated, but regardless of that you demonstrated both a bias and a lack of understanding of what went down with him by these comments.

It would have been very interesting if his extradition made it to the Supreme Court. I don't believe the results would have been as clear-cut as many people may claim. Either way, he agreed to a deal in the US that would see him serve time in return for charges against all his associates being dropped.

As for claiming his argument was straw, not really. The fact that she's an American means nothing. If the woman was a dual citizen and fled to Canada the Americans would most likely have pressured Canada into sending her back just like they took Marc Emery into their own hands too.


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5

1 recommendation

reply to dennilfloss
said by dennilfloss:

What about her two children who were born in Canada? They are Canadians and if the family is deported, will have to be raised in the US. Talk about punishing the innocents too.

Maybe she had kids thinking they would protect her from being deported. Because she didnt face the music of her own free will choices in the past she has now screwed up the lives of two children, shame on her.
--
Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"

LlamaWorks Equipment


donoreo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON
reply to I_H8_Spam
She joined of her own free will. She must live up to her commitment. Simple. Who does not know that the army sometimes fight in wars (or police actions if you will)?


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to Anav
said by Anav:

said by dennilfloss:

What about her two children who were born in Canada? They are Canadians and if the family is deported, will have to be raised in the US. Talk about punishing the innocents too.

Maybe she had kids thinking they would protect her from being deported. Because she didnt face the music of her own free will choices in the past she has now screwed up the lives of two children, shame on her.

That's the first thing I thought when I read that. She knew she was a deserter and she chose to have kids anyhow, so clearly she:
a) didn't care for the future of her children when she was conceiving or
b) figured she could have kids to save her from deportation.

... or both. Personally I think she should go to jail for that alone.


digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2
reply to I_H8_Spam
A quick check of "endorsers" of the The War Resisters Support Campaign mentioned in the CBC article reveals all the usual suspects (and only one Church), from the peace-at-any-cost crowd.

»resisters.ca/endorsers/
--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.


milnoc

join:2001-03-05
H3B
kudos:2
reply to Anav
said by Anav:

Maybe she had kids thinking they would protect her from being deported. Because she didnt face the music of her own free will choices in the past she has now screwed up the lives of two children, shame on her.

The term used in the US for children born from illegal immigrants is "anchor babies". Seems like a suitable term for this situation as well.
--
Watch my future television channel's public test broadcast!
»thecanadianpublic.com/live


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to digitalfutur
said by digitalfutur:

A quick check of "endorsers" of the The War Resisters Support Campaign mentioned in the CBC article reveals all the usual suspects (and only one Church), from the peace-at-any-cost crowd.

»resisters.ca/endorsers/

And the support of that one church is not binding in any way, shape or form on church members or pastors. Given that the church named also has several dozen chaplains serving in the Canadian Forces, your description is inaccurate at best and entirely wrong at worst.

And BTW, there are at least four identifiable churches who support the organization as well as one ecumencical organization which has representation from all the main line Christian churches (including the Roman Catholic Church) in Canada.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
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join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Rogers Portable ..
reply to elwoodblues
I think though, there is a difference between a deserter and a draft dodger. She could have quite with an dishonourable discharge. Where I used to live we had a lot of American draft dodgers living in the area, they all congregate in the same area. But even they believe that someone who signs up voluntarily is a lot different than someone that doesn't want to join the war for whatever reason.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein


CanadianRip

join:2009-07-15
Oakville, ON
reply to mickw99
said by mickw99:

She joined on her own free will. There is no draft that forced her into the military. as much as war sucks when you join you do as you are told.

She joined of her own free will.

What a bunch of malarkey. This is the same country where you can get bamboozled by a bunch of recruiters that use all kinds of known strategies on vulnerable minds. Minds that are old enough to commit to a lethal contract.

Yet at the same token, society would not trust that very same mind to purchase a bottle of beer as they're not yet seen as old enough to make that important decision.

EDIT: I guarantee you if normal corporations used the same recruitment tactics as the US Armed Forces, they corporate America would be paying out trillions in lawsuits over fraudulent claims to working conditions. Just for fun have a teenager go up and record the pitch for you and ask real questions. Contrast those to the reality they will face.


News

@videotron.ca
said by CanadianRip:

EDIT: I guarantee you if normal corporations used the same recruitment tactics as the US Armed Forces, they corporate America would be paying out trillions in lawsuits over fraudulent claims to working conditions. Just for fun have a teenager go up and record the pitch for you and ask real questions. Contrast those to the reality they will face.

Those are already all over youtube and the mainstream news. But there are people out there who wish to ignore the real world.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to I_H8_Spam
You join the military, you've made a commitment to serve your country in whatever manner IT feels you should serve, not whatever manner YOU feel you should serve. You give an oath (the oath of enlistment) to obey the President and officers appointed over you. Militaries fight wars, and it should be obvious to anybody joining a military that you don't get to pick and choose which wars you serve in.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


funny no

@videotron.ca
said by Guspaz:

You join the military, you've made a commitment to serve your country in whatever manner IT feels you should serve, not whatever manner YOU feel you should serve. You give an oath (the oath of enlistment) to obey the President and officers appointed over you. Militaries fight wars, and it should be obvious to anybody joining a military that you don't get to pick and choose which wars you serve in.

Happens that people get cold feet. Or it happens that when they enlisted at 17 and war comes knocking when they're 28 with 3 kids and a wife, they have outgrown the gun-ho thing. Chit happens.

Many Canadians didn't go to Afgan, many got out just of their belief of it, many pulled a sore back BS thing and the Canadian military let it slide. Big differences between the US and here when Canada got involved. I know of a couple of guys who pulled the back injury to get out of going. You don't find it kinda funny how there aren't many deserters here? Our military let them out.

So while you talk tough, it's obvious you don't know what's going on in your own backyard when Canadians were called up. "Commitment to serve your country" be damned. Many did not go.

Some funny differences between here and there, eh?

Riamen
Premium
join:2002-11-04
Calgary
said by funny no :

Many Canadians didn't go to Afgan, many got out just of their belief of it, many pulled a sore back BS thing and the Canadian military let it slide. Big differences between the US and here when Canada got involved. I know of a couple of guys who pulled the back injury to get out of going. You don't find it kinda funny how there aren't many deserters here? Our military let them out.

That's bullshit. I served 24 years in the CF regular force and reserves. There's no calling in sick in the military. There's no getting out of duty unless you have a medical chit (a signed note from a doctor). That means no matter how sick you feel you go to a military doctor and you don't get off unless they confirm it. To get out of duty they would have to prove they had a real back injury.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
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Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to funny no
said by funny no :

Many Canadians didn't go to Afgan, many got out just of their belief of it, many pulled a sore back BS thing and the Canadian military let it slide.

Many? I haven't heard of this widespread military "sore back" issue so perhaps it's not as many as you think...

Or perhaps you're making things up. If you showed me some kind of official numbers concerning the significance and reality of this widespread issue, you'd seem more credible.

said by funny no :

I know of a couple of guys who pulled the back injury to get out of going.

And I know a couple of guys and a girl who respectfully and proudly served their country without hesitation, and I don't believe I know anyone that would look fondly on anyone that pulled some kind of back injury excuse.

I find it hard to believe you know at least two individuals that 'pulled the back injury to get out of' serving.

said by funny no :

Some funny differences between here and there, eh?

Funny stories, that's for sure...

booj

join:2011-02-07
Richmond, ON
reply to Riamen
said by Riamen:

There's no calling in sick in the military. There's no getting out of duty unless you have a medical chit (a signed note from a doctor). That means no matter how sick you feel you go to a military doctor and you don't get off unless they confirm it. To get out of duty they would have to prove they had a real back injury.

All true, but pre-deployment fitness standards are very high, higher than regular CF standards. It's feasible that some intentionally did not meet the minimum requirements. Doctors are not going to force anyone to finish a ruck march.

At least we can be proud that we only sent real soldiers overseas.


Funny No

@videotron.ca
reply to Riamen
said by Riamen:

said by funny no :

Many Canadians didn't go to Afgan, many got out just of their belief of it, many pulled a sore back BS thing and the Canadian military let it slide. Big differences between the US and here when Canada got involved. I know of a couple of guys who pulled the back injury to get out of going. You don't find it kinda funny how there aren't many deserters here? Our military let them out.

That's bullshit. I served 24 years in the CF regular force and reserves. There's no calling in sick in the military. There's no getting out of duty unless you have a medical chit (a signed note from a doctor). That means no matter how sick you feel you go to a military doctor and you don't get off unless they confirm it. To get out of duty they would have to prove they had a real back injury.

Sad to say, it's not chit. I know people who pulled the back back and got out of deployment to afgan. Afterwards, about a year later, The CDN gov even had something going for a while when this deployment was still going on (Forget what it was, a discharge or other for those who refused to go) and exempted many people. You should be able to google this, it's only been a few years.

So, no. It's no chit. Happened. We were all sitting down for Xmas dinner with a couple of mil guys and their wives who got out and this is what happened and how it went down.


Funny No

@videotron.ca
reply to booj
said by booj:

but pre-deployment fitness standards are very high, higher than regular CF standards. It's feasible that some intentionally did not meet the minimum requirements. Doctors are not going to force anyone to finish a ruck march.

yeah, I no longer recall all the specifics of it, it's been a few years, but I do recall the guys telling how how they were going to get out (or hope to) and it had to do with some sort of med exam.

When we saw them again about 8 months later, they told us they pulled the sore back thing and got out. It all worked as they stated. But again, the CDN gov had something going on at the time (or a little later on after the fact) that didn't force deployment.

So while some here are thinking of gun-ho John Wayne movies where you can't get out and such, this was not the case with Canada, and certainly not with the afgan deployment.

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
reply to CanadianRip
said by CanadianRip:

What a bunch of malarkey. This is the same country where you can get bamboozled by a bunch of recruiters that use all kinds of known strategies on vulnerable minds. Minds that are old enough to commit to a lethal contract.

I was stationed on an Air Force base in California back in the day as a civilian contractor and my 16 yr old son who was down visiting, and was an Air Cadet went to the recruiting office and got the straight goods.

Grappler

join:2002-09-01
Ottawa, ON
reply to I_H8_Spam
Maybe, just maybe this female should have signed up for the extended insurance benefits as noted in the following:

"Boudreaux, the smoothest-talking Cajun in the Louisiana National Guard, got called up to active duty. Boudreaux's first assignment was in a military induction center. Because he was a good talker, they assigned him the duty of advising new recruits about government benefits, especially the GI insurance to which they were entitled.
The officer in charge soon noticed that Boudreaux was getting a 99% sign-up rate for the more expensive supplemental form of GI insurance. This was remarkable, because it cost these low-income recruits $30.00 per month for the higher coverage, compared to what the government was already providing at no charge.
The officer decided he'd sit in the back of the room at the next briefing and observe Boudreaux's sales pitch.
Boudreaux stood up before the latest group of inductees and said, "If you has da normal GI insurans an' you goes to Afghanistan an' gets youself killed, da govment' pays you benefishery $20,000. If you takes out da suppmental insurans, which cost you only t'irty dollars a munt, den da governmen' gots ta pay you benefishery $400,000! "Now," Boudreaux concluded, "which bunch you tink dey gonna send ta Afghanistan first?"


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to Funny No
said by Funny No :

yeah, I no longer recall all the specifics of it, it's been a few years, but I do recall the guys telling how how they were going to get out (or hope to) and it had to do with some sort of med exam.

When we saw them again about 8 months later, they told us they pulled the sore back thing and got out. It all worked as they stated. But again, the CDN gov had something going on at the time (or a little later on after the fact) that didn't force deployment.

So while some here are thinking of gun-ho John Wayne movies where you can't get out and such, this was not the case with Canada, and certainly not with the afgan deployment.

Right. Making the rule from the exception. I know many who have served in Afghanistan and I work on a CF base from time to time. Our local base had a whole company of people awaiting discharge. No, they never served in Afghanistan. But many did. Those who did, served with honour.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


milnoc

join:2001-03-05
H3B
kudos:2
reply to Grappler
said by Grappler:

"which bunch you tink dey gonna send ta Afghanistan first?"

True or not, that made my day!
--
Watch my future television channel's public test broadcast!
»thecanadianpublic.com/live