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ashrc4
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reply to norwegian

Re: Australia won't back away from data retention plan

Compulsory Voting seems to be my suggestion to slow/alter/inject more democratic type of values back into the fray.
You only need to pander to those that vote and confuse those that don't, to stay in power.
When your ability to win ensures that most of the public need to agree with you on most things it will change the political landscape closer inline with what people want.
If you guys could just implement it for a while.
--
Paradigm Shift beta test pilot. "Dying to defend one's small piece of suburb...Give me something global...STAT!



Blackbird
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reply to ashrc4

said by ashrc4:

said by norwegian:

said by StuartMW:

ASIO would also be given the power to install, delete and manipulate software on people's computers without their knowledge, according to the provisions laid out in the proposal, putting an ethical question mark over the legitimacy of evidence gathering when it comes to prosecuting suspects.

That point currently, does not carry as much weight here as it does for US citizens.
The size and ability to affect more than a hand full of people at one time on the scale of misuse at any given time from ASIO would be far from the notion that some of these powers being allowed in the US. ...
said by norwegian:

Storing info to save police force expense is not regulating, well it is if you are a militia I guess, this is meant to be the free world, is it not?

... To think that ASIO is concerned with the general public that use the internet and therefore all must be scrutinized within an inch of there freedom's and then make out some/any are going to be set-up for whatever reason in this instance is pushing it a bit.
There is no secret malitia that i know of that is combing through peoples search history looking to affect change other than private enterprise.

Not being a citizen of Oz, I have no pony in their races. But it ought to be noted by the folks who are citizens there that data squirreled away by ASIO has two elements that need to be considered as possible risks: first, it may ultimately be made public as it passes into Australian National Archives. Second, and more important, ASIO has been accused of bias and agenda-based manipulation in the past regarding how information is used (abused?) and selectively released. Regardless of whether one is left or right in their orientation, it becomes dangerous (as I noted earlier, profoundly dangerous) when an arm of the government is given power to manipulate data on a person's computer while that same government has the power to prosecute a person for what is on their system. If an agency has demonstrated past willingness to follow a political agenda with its data troves and practices, what makes anyone believe it will not also manipulate data on "opponents' " systems for those same political agendas? Regardless of who is in power (left or right), the laws and precedents will already be in place for the other side to abuse once they come to power... and this is the stuff oppression is made of.

From Australian National Archives: Personal information in ASIO records – Fact sheet 53:
quote:
... Most ASIO records held by the Archives relate to the investigation and surveillance of individuals, groups and organisations. ... These records, like most other Commonwealth records, are eligible for public release under the Archives Act 1983.
...
Because ASIO records are exempt from the Freedom of Information Act, subjects of ASIO records, unlike subjects of most other Commonwealth agency records, are unable to request that information which is recorded about them on ASIO records be changed if it is incomplete, incorrect, out of date or misleading. ... The subject of an ASIO file may, if he or she wishes, provide the Archives with a written statement identifying information contained in the file that is believed to be inaccurate.
...
From Australian Security Intelligence Organisation:
quote:
... ASIO has been accused of executing an agenda against the Left of politics since its inception. In the 1960s, ASIO was also accused of neglecting its proper duties because of this supposed preoccupation with targeting the Left. Like other Western domestic security agencies, ASIO actively monitored protesters against the Vietnam War, Labor politicians and various writers, artists and actors who tended towards the Left. Other claims go further, alleging that the Organisation compiled a list of some 10,000 suspected Communist sympathisers who would be interned should the Cold War escalate.
...
--
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!" -- P.Henry, 1775


ashrc4
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australia

I would love to look at my archive.....especially if it were accurate.
I'd be more interested in it, if it could be used enmasse to do things like intern people these days.
Oh wait Asylum seekers, Muslims of interest.
The problem with this approach is that once they initiate such a proposal (intern) they also have to live with the consequence of doing just that.
Today ASIO plays a secondary role in investigating (clearing mainly) Asylum Seekers and most that don't pass are only detained until alternative arrangements can be made.
That political landscape has long since changed.
In some countries and sphere's the radicalization of some Muslim groups has well and truely taken the main focus.

Yet no allegations of doing anything other than gathering intelligence and archiving it seems to be worth mention at this time. Allowing, should protocol be followed, warrants/search orders etc. to look at a persons search history seems reasonable IMHO.

said by Blackbird:

left or right in their orientation, it becomes dangerous (as I noted earlier, profoundly dangerous) when an arm of the government is given power to manipulate data on a person's computer while that same government has the power to prosecute a person for what is on their system.

ASIO would also be given the power to install, delete and manipulate software on people's computers without their knowledge

Just to clarify are we not seeing the word "software".

I know this is not a draft from the legislation but to manipulate the content of someone's documentation or images would fall outside of this.
--
Paradigm Shift beta test pilot. "Dying to defend one's small piece of suburb...Give me something global...STAT!


norwegian
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said by ashrc4:

Just to clarify are we not seeing the word "software".

I know this is not a draft from the legislation but to manipulate the content of someone's documentation or images would fall outside of this.

I haven't read all of the document, but page 48 of the document at the getup.org link suggests they didn't have permissions but would be happy for it to change. "Authority for acts necessary to execute a computer access warrant"
About allowing previously prohibited actions, how much are they expecting?
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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



StuartMW
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reply to ashrc4

said by ashrc4:

That point currently, does not carry as much weight here as it does for US citizens.
The size and ability to affect more than a hand full of people at one time on the scale of misuse at any given time from ASIO would be far from the notion that some of these powers being allowed in the US.

That assumes that the US 3-letter agencies aren't involved in this (and I bet they are to some degree). The NSA et al are already in Australia (e.g. Pine Gap) and have been for decades.
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reply to ashrc4

said by ashrc4:

... Just to clarify are we not seeing the word "software".

I know this is not a draft from the legislation but to manipulate the content of someone's documentation or images would fall outside of this.

From the GetUp! text of the document (Discussion Paper)...

Page 10, section 11, para c:
quote:
Enable the disruption of a target computer for the purpose of a computer access warrant
Page 11, Section 17, para a:
quote:
Using third party computers and communications in transit to access a target computer under a computer access warrant
Page 48, Section 3.2, second and third paragraphs on page:
quote:
Subsection 25A(5) currently restricts ASIO from doing anything under a computer access warrant that adds, deletes or alters data or interferes with, interrupts, or obstructs the lawful use of the target computer by other persons. This prohibition operates regardless of how minor or inconsequential the interference, interruption, or obstruction may be.

To address this, section 25A could be amended so that the prohibition does not apply to activity proportionate to what is necessary to execute the warrant.
page 50, Section "Use of third party computers...", third para:
quote:
... it may be appropriate to amend the ASIO Act to enable a third party computer or communication in transit to be used by ASIO to lawfully access a target computer.
I suppose one could argue that this all only applies to legally forcing the turnover of encryption keys and the interception of data flow to/from the computer of an alleged criminal computer. But it seems to me that terms such as "disruption of a target computer", "using third party computers... to access a target computer", and lifting the prohibition against ASIO of action that "adds, deletes or alters data... of a target computer" all sound like the target computer and its software/data will be allowed to be remotely "messed with" by ASIO. This, coupled with the accusations over the years about ASIO's political agendas, are what I believe raise the concern about the thrust of the discussion paper.

Obviously, a great deal depends on the independence and judicial integrity of the warrant process, and how effectively it is policed. Perhaps that's no problem in Australia, but I'd not bet that way...
--
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!" -- P.Henry, 1775


norwegian
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reply to Name Game

The following is an update on what sort of data is to kept. I think if this is all, most is already stored, so why the need to address it, all my bills come with phone times,dates etc, so why is this specifically what they are requesting? There is also mention of the EU version? Has anyone experience at that level to help understand this more?

They do note, content will be excess-able under certain conditions - does that mean they will request the data itself be stored as well?

»www.itnews.com.au/News/316325,as···sal.aspx

'Metadata' gains meaning.

The Federal Government's proposed data retention regime would serve to combat authorities' "eroding" ability to access communications data in investigations, Australia's key spy organisation has argued.

In a surprising submission to the joint parliamentary committee investigating the proposed national security reforms, ASIO said it sought to clarify the type of data telcos and Internet Service Providers would be required to hold for up to two years under such a scheme.

The metadata, which it termed "communication assisted data", would include the user's identification; origin and destination of the communication; time, data and duration; type of communication and device used; as well as the location of the user during that communication.

"In this context, agencies are not seeking access to the content of communications," ASIO argued (pdf), though it noted it could separately access such content using certain warrants.


--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



norwegian
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»www.itnews.com.au/News/309291,au···nts.aspx

The head of the Australian Secret Intelligence Service (ASIS) has warned IT security challenges "pose one of the biggest threats of the decade", as the security landscape makes covert intelligence operations more difficult for agents.

Director-general Nick Warner said this week that despite the Federal Government spending "considerable resources" on boosting intelligence-gathering capabilities for ASIS and other Australian authorities, use of the internet and closed networks to collect information had become dangerous for the spy agency's staff.

»www.itnews.com.au/News/308218,go···pts.aspx

Raises technical, regulatory issues.

Cloud providers and social networks could be obliged to capture and store customer information for lawful interception under a new proposal by the federal Attorney-General's department.

The proposal is part of a wide-ranging review of telecommunications interception and intelligence community legislation Attorney-General Nicola Roxon referred to a parliamentary committee in May for further consideration.

In a 61-page discussion paper released on Tuesday (pdf), the department said it was considering whether to expand the interception regime beyond its existing scope of telcos and internet service providers.

The department looked to include the "broad range of current telecommunications industry participants" that had grown since the law's inception in 1979.

It highlighted social networks and cloud computing providers, whose exclusion under current legislation created "potential vulnerabilities in the interception regime that are capable of being manipulated by criminals".

"Consideration should be given to extending the interception regime to such providers to remove uncertainty about the application of industry obligations in relation to agency requests and to better position Australia to meet domestic and international demands," the discussion paper notes.


--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



norwegian
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Interesting link and insight:

»blog.serkowski.net/2012/09/manda···-rights/

Mandatory Data Retention Irreconcilable with Fundamental Human Rights

by Roderick on September 19, 2012

Revisiting our submission to a previous inquiry into privacy, I think it has a very good section on data retention and some of the other proposals currently being considered in the National Security Inquiry.

Data Retention

Last month it was revealed that the Federal Government Attorney-General’s Department had been for some time considering the implementation of a legislatively mandated telecommunications data retention regime in Australia and had been approaching Internet Service Providers (ISPs) with respect to the extent to which data could be retained. The compulsory standard to which the Department has signaled it was investigating equivalency with was the European Data Retention Directive.

--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



norwegian
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reply to Name Game

There has been a meeting - an inquiry is in place - talk about fast, this was just discussed and now an inquiry in as many days? I didn't think anyone moved that fast?

Australia's police commissioners want to help draft laws that would allow them to access the public's telecommunications data for up to two years.

Police would ideally prefer the information be held by telecommunication companies indefinitely, so it could be accessed by police at any time

But the commissioners say their motives are "pure", and they simply want their crime-fighting tools to be brought into the 21st century.

»www.smh.com.au/technology/techno···kj2.html
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



norwegian
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POLICE commissioners have called for access to people's telecommunications data for at least five years, saying the longer telcos hold such data the easier it will be to solve and prevent crimes.

Proposed national laws would require telecommunication companies to hold phone and internet "metadata" for two years, which could then be accessed by law enforcement agencies with a warrant.

»www.theaustralian.com.au/news/br···81572079
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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



Blackbird
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said by norwegian:

POLICE commissioners have called for access to people's telecommunications data for at least five years, saying the longer telcos hold such data the easier it will be to solve and prevent crimes. ...

»www.theaustralian.com.au/news/br···81572079

Having a checkpoint at every intersection requiring and logging identity papers presented by everyone would also be a useful idea for later determining who was going where at what time, making it easier to solve and prevent crimes. But the issue is not whether some scheme might be useful for law enforcement to do their job... it's whether the scheme could (and ultimately would) be likely employed by some agency or despot for politically repressive purposes. History is replete with examples of the latter.
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"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!" -- P.Henry, 1775


norwegian
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It is something that can be of concern, it can be innocent or a serious extension into a population controlled future by big brother.

»www.abc.net.au/technology/articl···9864.htm

Why are people so worried about data retention and the National Security Inquiry?

Putting measures in place to stop criminals and terrorists is good, right? So why are so many people howling with outrage at what's being discussed at the National Security Enquiry? (oops on the spelling)

• What is the inquiry?
• What is being discussed?
• It's only online, right?
• Being forced to hand over your private passwords
• Protecting journalist sources and whistle blowers
• The undermining of the Right To Remain Silent
• Security
• Exposure
• The body scanners lies and privacy fails
• Fallible police
• Everyone has broken the law
• Copyright
• Fishing trips
• Policy creep
• Conclusion

I know I've tried to keep Assange out of this topic, but if this was all in place, he wouldn't have to worry about the US, it would be his own nation who would crucify him and label it treason, his sources and anyone else who decided to be public about anything the govt/police/ASIO or any other agency didn't like would be included.

How is that protecting the general public? It does sound like it is eroding our privacy. And while you say it is only the meta-data, there has been mention of the whole data too.

Call me a troll:
Add all this into breaking down privacy rights, expensive Internet becoming more expensive......you have to wonder on the real reasons behind the NBN roll out as well.
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StuartMW
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said by norwegian:

It is something that can be of concern, it can be innocent or a serious extension into a population controlled future by big brother.

FIFY (Fixed it for ya)

Do you watch the ABC series Rake? (US readers that have DirecTV can watch it on the Audience channel). Hilarious! Anyway the most recent episode (in the US) satirized Australia's anti-terrorism laws.
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norwegian
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said by StuartMW:

Do you watch the ABC series Rake? (US readers that have DirecTV can watch it on the Audience channel). Hilarious! Anyway the most recent episode (in the US) satirized Australia's anti-terrorism laws.

No, but remember many years of that dry tv humor (not just British) that it sounds like; from the few clips I looked up it would almost be the sort of laugh that would get you hung, or at least followed closely because you listened to "Alice's Restaurant" by Arlo Guthrie as well.

Even "Yes Prime minister" was a straight up look at how some may just toss decisions about for the good of the country. Does that idea or theory constitute a log at level 2 in the recording studio for future analysis?
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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



StuartMW
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Well I loved Yes Prime Minister! I took it as satire about the Parliamentary system.

James Hacker (the PM) was usually, but not always, clueless. Sir Humphrey Appleby (the bureaucrat) was always trying to thwart Hacker (the politician).
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norwegian
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It was all in how you interpreted those words; Sir H could untwist fencing wire with his.



StuartMW
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said by norwegian:

Sir H could untwist fencing wire with his.

Or twist it--which is what he was usually doing
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norwegian
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quote:
The subject of an ASIO file may, if he or she wishes, provide the Archives with a written statement identifying information contained in the file that is believed to be inaccurate.
I believe even police records are held in the same way. After a certain time you can request by a paid document to un-list events from affecting future record requests / clearances, but the facts never go away and if the case is serious enough it still has strength in today's world or the future.

quote:
Other claims go further, alleging that the Organisation compiled a list of some 10,000 suspected Communist sympathisers who would be interned should the Cold War escalate.
There was always a communist risk that was discussed even at public speaking levels; even including missing prime-ministers. That is not new, but it seems the events were enough to make everyone watch their back and I gather to some extent those insecurities have or had caused shifts in ways forward, ultimate control will always feel safest, but without mistakes and wrongs, how do you grow in character. Bit like that movie "Demolition Man".
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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



norwegian
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»freedomwatch.ipa.org.au/privacy-···eleased/

Privacy impact assessment on data retention released

by Simon Breheny on October 11, 2012 in Rule of law, Technology and online rights
Finally, some detail on data retention! A privacy impact assessment relating to the proposed reforms to the Telecommunications (Interception and Access) Act 1979 has been released, which sheds light on Attorney-General Nicola Roxon’s plans to establish an online surveillance regime.

The document was prepared and handed over to the Attorney General’s Department in December last year. And the government didn’t volunteer publication of the assessment – it’s only after a successful freedom of information request that the report has seen the light of day.

More at link.

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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



norwegian
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AFP denies seeking URLs for data-retention plans

The Australian Federal Police (AFP) has defined the sort of "non-content" communications data that it would like internet service providers (ISPs) to retain for up to two years, and has denied suggestions that web-browsing history would be included.

The federal government has proposed, as part of a suite of suggested modifications to telecommunications-interception legislation, that ISPs be required to retain customer "metadata" for up to two years. This metadata would be "non-content" communications data, according to law-enforcement agencies.

.......more at link.

How far would the info (IP address) go if the whole world were not involved in this storage. Proxies. Where would that leave us?

And what would a URL do that the IP address would not? Certainly having the IP would help avoid issues with DNS poisoning being the infect vector, and would allow more positive resolution that will still ultimately provide a URL anyway, so how does that provide an argument in the defense of the laws requested?
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norwegian
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reply to Name Game

Thought it worth posting a few updates and comments to keep you updated:

»www.zdnet.com/un-sides-with-law-···0006274/

UN sides with law enforcement over data retention
Summary: The United Nations has picked a side when it comes to the ongoing debate over data-retention legislation, echoing sentiments by law-enforcement organisations that a retention scheme is necessary.

More at link

-------------------

»www.activistpost.com/2012/10/un-···net.html

UN calls for worldwide internet surveillance and data retention in the name of fighting terrorism

The manufactured threat of terrorism has once again been used to push what would otherwise be unthinkable. In this case, the United Nations is exploiting the irrational fear of terrorism to justify international internet surveillance.

In a new 148-page UN report released at a conference in Vienna entitled “The Use of the Internet for Terrorist Purposes” the UN claimed that the lack of an “internationally agreed framework for retention of data” is problematic along with open wireless internet networks in public places.

The UN claims that terrorists are utilizing social networking sites like Facebook, Twitter and YouTube to spread what they call “propaganda.” This perspective is somewhat similar to that presented by groups like the Homeland Security Policy Institute in claiming that a major threat is the “spread of the [terrorist] entity’s narrative.”

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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



norwegian
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reply to Name Game

»apo.org.au/research/telecommunic···overview

Telecommunications data retention - an overview

24 October 2012This background note outlines the types of communications data generated by use of the Internet, email and phones, why law enforcement agencies want it retained, and what existing access law enforcement agencies have to such data.

More obviously if you read on........
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norwegian
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»www.itnews.com.au/News/320516,da···law.aspx

Data retention runs counter to national privacy law

Opinion: Has the Government proposed contradicting reforms?

The Federal Government’s proposed data retention laws run counter to the spirit and letter of the national privacy principles.

If enacted, the data retention laws will make it mandatory for all Australian telcos and ISPs to store the non-content usage records of all individuals for up to two years without the consent of the individuals involved.
But they appear to contradict the Privacy Amendment (Enhancing Privacy Protection) Bill 2012, which, if passed, will prohibit the use of all personal information for direct marketing, unless exemptions apply.
The proposed privacy amendments are consistent with the "consent-based" approach that generally underpins Western thinking about privacy.

By contrast, the national security reform proposals seek to significantly extend government's surveillance powers.


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Blackbird
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said by norwegian:

»www.itnews.com.au/News/320516,da···law.aspx

Data retention runs counter to national privacy law

Opinion: Has the Government proposed contradicting reforms?...

Which, in the end, is always the universal crux of the matter: national security versus privacy... the leadership's need to "know" versus the people's desire to keep secrets. Since the perpetual ambition of those in power is to achieve more power (to better control events and people and to further their hold on power), the position of government will always tend toward the security side of things. That's where people are most vulnerable to tolerating the loss of their privacy and independence, since fear is such a powerful human drive. However, it's a bit unusual to see two simultaneous initiatives within a national dialogue so directly at cross purposes. Hopefully a majority of Australians will see the contradiction and compel their elected government leaders to come down on the side of privacy... but that's not how I'd bet.
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"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!" -- P.Henry, 1775


norwegian
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That's where you wonder just how far reaching it all ends up.

Some countries already have data retention laws which mandate the retention of data for a certain period of time, regardless of any criminal activity.

While CNET notes, “Europe, but not the U.S. or most other nations, has enacted a mandatory data-retention law,” in reality the U.S does indeed retain huge amounts of data on Americans without any link to criminal or terrorist activity.

This is evidenced by the rules adopted by the National Counterterrorism Center which “allow private data on Americans to be held when there is no suspicion of them being tied to terrorism for a whopping five years.”

Seems like there are concerns for other regions, and I remember there was discussion here recently for the US as well, it was just before this topic, but missed the link to it in a quick search of the forum.

No one wants the general population, friends, relatives, neighbors, etc to be 'taken down' but to justify taking full control and think it does clean up - certainly corrupted power can be more damaging than the initial trip or event that sets in motion these 'updated rules'; then you only have to obtain one exception and it all unfolds in it's glory.

There is a lot to be said for "KISS"
Keep it simple silly.
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StuartMW
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reply to Blackbird

said by Blackbird:

Hopefully a majority of Australians will see the contradiction and compel their elected government leaders to come down on the side of privacy... but that's not how I'd bet.

I doubt it. My bet is that Aussies, like Americans, mostly fall in the "I've nothing to hide just keep me safe" crowd and therefore don't care. They're too busy on Facebook/Twitter/etc to notice anyway.

I've said this before but I just live with the fact that everything I do on the internet is monitored. I don't believe any gummint that says they're not doing it. I don't like it but there's nothing I can do about it.

But as we all suspect this captured data can be used against you.

»NO-FLY LIST Strands man on Island in Hawaii

The "we're only looking for terrorists" is pure BS. This is "Big Brother" pure and simple.
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I doubt it. My bet is that Aussies, like Americans, mostly fall in the "I've nothing to hide just keep me safe" crowd and therefore don't care. They're too busy on Facebook/Twitter/etc to notice anyway.

I've said this before but I just live with the fact that everything I do on the internet is monitored. I don't believe any gummint that says they're not doing it. I don't like it but there's nothing I can do about it.

But as we all suspect this captured data can be used against you.

»NO-FLY LIST Strands man on Island in Hawaii

The "we're only looking for terrorists" is pure BS. This is "Big Brother" pure and simple.

Most humans are pretty much like that.
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ashrc4
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reply to Name Game

My reasoning behind finding the new law acceptable goes along the lines of what we have grown to expect from telephone laws.
Records are kept for home phone line rental the same as for communication for net use. It makes sense.
You are still required to get a warrant to access.
The irony in all this is that company's can flout these by many approaches and spy at will.

»Re: Skype Encryption when sending and receiving IM messages?

One such example where wiretap laws aren't equal.
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