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Venom1

join:2011-10-21
Augusta, GA

[Cataclysm] Was the nerf too much?

We, , did our weekly DS clear last night. Everything went smoothly. We had 1 pug, and 1 SERIOUS casual, who did great for how little she raids. A few of our core raiders were able to walk away with some normal BiS items, and we geared up another PUGger. As happy as I was to 1. walk away from farmed content with a less than 2 hour clear, 2. have a new member of the guild down the last boss of current content, and 3. have an overall satisfying night of raiding; I couldn't help but feel that healing was overly easy, I was only doing about 14k hps (pally), and we two healed up to Spine.

Comp was HPriest and HPally with the RShammy added for Spine and Madness. On Spine the shammy made the comment, "I'm dropping my mana totem, so I can keep over-healing." I had the same feeling through Madness, the only big hit being taken on the head platform as people we a bit spread out.

Anyone else get the same feeling? Was the 35% nerf too much? If anyone has done Heroic since the nerf, you guys getting the same thing?
--
For Rogues, by Rogues, to be used at the Rogue drive through when you order a side-order of Rogue.


JB
Stay Gold
Premium
join:2009-05-14
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
I pretty much agree... the super omg heals pretty much ensures that if you have good DPS and tanks that know how to hit their cooldown buttons you should be able to steam roll the place.

Do I really care? Not really. Let people see the end of the game content and give those not so 'elite' guilds a chance to feel what it is like to actually down end game content, maybe more people will keep raiding, who knows.

On a side note, no new guilds on my server has killed spine or madness on heroic still, lol.
--
Here's the final bullet,
to put our love to death.


Lothario

join:2009-09-30
Ottawa, ON
reply to Venom1
Doubt it, was in an lfr and wiped on ultraxion...


seaquake
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-23
Millersville, MD
reply to Venom1
I think it's fine. Main toons should be fully geared by this point. We've been running with alts and it's been super easy. I think from the 25% nerf on we've been able to have our HPally 1-heal the fights up until spine.

We're 6/8 heroic and we're kind of stuck at this point since our second tank quit in July and it's damn near impossible to PUG a tank who knows HM and isn't already committed somewhere else. Right now, we're just killing time till the Pandas arrive.


JB
Stay Gold
Premium
join:2009-05-14
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to Lothario
Oh come on, we all know LFR is a 'special' place

seaquake, you can't find an alt OT or someone to tank the amalg? I mean, that job is pretty easy... (assuming your 'main tank' actually can tank the adds, I know ours couldn't)
--
Here's the final bullet,
to put our love to death.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to JB
said by JB:

Do I really care? Not really. Let people see the end of the game content and give those not so 'elite' guilds a chance to feel what it is like to actually down end game content, maybe more people will keep raiding, who knows.

agreed.

It was a nice run, but I remember saying in vent last night during Madness, "wow, Blizz really wants people to see this stuff on heroic before MoP".

We need to get a second run going for heroic modes this week. I'm sure we can grab 3/8 on alts.
--
Immergruen (resto/boomie) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Guild leader for Pride and Ego

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.

cymraeg
Thread Killer
Premium
join:2011-06-07
Dodge, NE
that was the intent with the 35% nerf, they know that healing in heroic would be problematic with the stat changes to spirit so they did the nerf so it would be manageable, GC did a post about the intent of healing and mana and described this.
--
Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau!
If you say you burned my map, I'll nail your tits to the table!

Arsinic

join:2011-02-17
Ruffs Dale, PA
kudos:1
reply to seaquake
Scrolled back a week or so ago to check out the new stuff...

Decided to hop into the guilds raid since they were short peeps. Holy crap at the nerfs.. I knew the night would be quick when Morchok fell over in about 70 seconds of combat..

Get to spine, first plate dead with about 2 seconds left on the channel, my mind was blown at the ease of the fight. Initiate the roll and the tank that would usually pull an amalg to soak bloods never had time get secured the roll happened so fast. I said F it lets try anyway, and we solo tanked and 9manned the rest of the fight killing each plate in 1 lift, pot 2nd plate hero third... IMO seaquake you should jsut try to solo tank with an extra dps the plate mechanic will be a joke and the fight will be over before bloods have a chance to be a problem.

Also I remember splitting dps to pre dott blue platform to make the dps check before i quit, I spent seriously 30% of the madness fight not attacking to not push hp%'s to low to spawn bloods or corruptions or whatever.

Also had enough time to clear 7/&h FL for some apps Rag mount..

Vinceruos_t

join:2012-05-04
reply to Venom1
I think the nerf is a little excessive, but at the same time I think it was a good idea. It is the end of the expac and it makes you feel powerful to be able to go in and steamroll bosses. We are actually having fun raiding now. Lol. Testing out all the new talents on different fights and trying to see how fast we can down bosses. Btw we full cleared 8/8 heroic last night in less then 2 hours and we had 2 pugs :/. But overall I think the nerf along with the new patch has brought back a lot of life into DS.

djlar

join:2009-04-23
799228
reply to Lothario
said by Lothario:

Doubt it, was in an lfr and wiped on ultraxion...

I think regular ultraxion is easier than LFR, I think he may actually had less HP and damage now..


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
said by djlar:

said by Lothario:

Doubt it, was in an lfr and wiped on ultraxion...

I think regular ultraxion is easier than LFR, I think he may actually had less HP and damage now..

it only feels that way because in LFR only 6 people are doing what they are supposed to.
--
Immergruen (resto/boomie) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Guild leader for Pride and Ego

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.

djlar

join:2009-04-23
799228
Heroics feel like normals and normals easier than LFR...

Arsinic

join:2011-02-17
Ruffs Dale, PA
kudos:1
reply to Venom1
I wonder if its possible to do like the guild back in wrath that cleared raid content in just plain heroic gear...


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
you mean heroic dungeon gear? i378 wouldn't be hard... i346 might be a challenge.


bTU

join:2009-04-22
Aurora, CO
There was a guild trying what was called a blue challenge where they were trying to down ICC after the 30% nerf in only ilvl 200 and lower blues items. Can't remember how far they got exactly, but I think it was 7/12. Anyone else have more info on it?
--
He who controls the Spice, controls the universe.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to Immer
If you do a 8/8h run next week I'd like to join.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to Immer
said by Immer:

said by djlar:

said by Lothario:

Doubt it, was in an lfr and wiped on ultraxion...

I think regular ultraxion is easier than LFR, I think he may actually had less HP and damage now..

it only feels that way because in LFR only 6 people are doing what they are supposed to.

LFR is crazy easy already.

In reg if 2+ fail at hitting the button then you wipe.
Heroic unless your super well geared everyone must be good on hitting the button when they should.


mettachain
Goblineer

join:2011-09-27
Azeroth
kudos:1
who honestly cares if the nerf was too much? those who really raid got to experience the content they needed.

those who are not really raiders (LFR heroes, wierd becuase i can specs, etc.) get to have a taste of the watered content.

with this nerf, those who wanted to raid on their mains, got the job done. we all have alts.....no one wants to go back through the pain of wiping week after week on shit you know already until you pray to the RNG godess for gear on the alt to progress. now that achieves and titles are account wide though, there should be weekly/bi-weekly nerfs of current content in MoP. you can show off your mounts and titles on your other level eligible toons.

TLDR; No. the nerf was fine n00b "raiders" and pushing alts through content as well.
--
Good evening!

Arsinic

join:2011-02-17
Ruffs Dale, PA
kudos:1
reply to Venom1
Look back at ICC though, Even with the 30% nerfs AND the pre cata patch there really weren't many people obtaining Light of Dawn H LK Kills.. There still was a bit of a challenge to that fight albeit signifigantly less of one.. Seriously the gap from 5% nerf to 30% nerf of that fight still required a decent semblance of execution, that just simply does not exist in DS. Now normal ICC was a joke still, but many guilds still coulnd't kill Sindy or Even Lk at the end of cata. If I also remeber correctly many guilds were server xferring at the end of wrath to steal server firsts on LK because no guilds had cleared ICC .

Honestly thoguh I agree it doesn't matter, let people experience the crap. I also can see the argument of more and more catering to casuals, but honestly who cares. Clearing raid content months ago just left me with time to play several other games, that I probably wouldnt have played had I been in a casual guild.


Nick D
Premium
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA

1 edit
The difference is heroic LK had pure execution mechanics that can still wipe you to this day (Shadow Traps and Defile), as well as being a beast of a numbers fight. Madness is just pure numbers, really: can you kill these mobs fast enough and can you survive this much damage? Also DS has terrible fight design overall, but Madness especially is depressing because there's nothing about it that is particularly difficult other than "I hope you can press buttons good".

I wonder how the heroic Rag kill numbers would be if he were the final tier boss, but nerfed DS-style (gradual up to 30%, but no gear inflation beyond farming H Firelands) (and I also mean without the ridiculous health nerfs as well) (also maybe a fixed Magma Geyser mechanic).

He's less "all or nothing" execution than LK, but has a lot of smart play mechanics: dodging World Aflame, effective meteor kiting, Dreadflame clearing, etc., so while more gear lets you get fewer meteors or less Dreadflame overall, it doesn't suddenly make the fight lulz worthy.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
Well H-LK, if your not doing the meta is Lolz now.

You can DPS LK fast enough that p2 and p3 are completely skipped, so you go p1-intermission1-intermission2-less than 10%

Just have a good bit of ranged and have them go to max range for intermission, and stay there DPSing LK.

Pop Hero early on to get fewer shadow traps.

then if you want to do the meta its still easy (even on heroic)
use the arrows to plan the movements, each time a trap goes out the whole group moves over to the next.

while the 2 tanks do there thing, and people run to the right spot when they get that debuff.

I did 25-H-ICC full meta clear, due to how long it takes to get the 30stacks we ended up with LK enraging (ya some healer messed up and reset the stacks) and still killed Enraged LK.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to Nick D
Ya Rag is more fun than DS

IMO DS doesn't deserve to be a final tier raid.


mettachain
Goblineer

join:2011-09-27
Azeroth
kudos:1
said by DarkLogix:

Ya Rag is more fun than DS

IMO DS doesn't deserve to be a final tier raid.

Memories are much better than realities. You reminisce about weekly FL. It seems Firelands was prett short then we were stuck with Dragon Soul for like 10-11 months. Way too long for one Tier raid to hang around. Plus, that's what is still current. It sucks but FL wasn't any better than DS. Your memories for FL just became inflated while you're stilll grueling in LFR and reg DS.
--
Good evening!


JB
Stay Gold
Premium
join:2009-05-14
kudos:1
reply to DarkLogix
Clearly never saw the pre-shannox trash pre-nerf.


mettachain
Goblineer

join:2011-09-27
Azeroth
kudos:1
i like turtles
--
Good evening!


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to mettachain
said by mettachain:

said by DarkLogix:

Ya Rag is more fun than DS

IMO DS doesn't deserve to be a final tier raid.

Memories are much better than realities. You reminisce about weekly FL. It seems Firelands was prett short then we were stuck with Dragon Soul for like 10-11 months. Way too long for one Tier raid to hang around. Plus, that's what is still current. It sucks but FL wasn't any better than DS. Your memories for FL just became inflated while you're stilll grueling in LFR and reg DS.

Actually I was on wow break when FL was current.

Only downed Reg-Rag a couple months ago or so, But when I did I had also already downed Reg-madness, and Rag was just more rewarding than madness.


mettachain
Goblineer

join:2011-09-27
Azeroth
kudos:1
Once again. It was because it was new to you.

DS has been stale since April.
--
Good evening!


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
Madness was weaksauce when I first did it.

Just no sense of accomplishment.


quatra
Premium
join:2003-06-22
Matthews, NC
reply to Lothario
I don't believe the nerfs affect LFR - which is one of the reasons why normal mode is so much easier than LFR. True there are extra mechanics in normal mode, but usually fewer than 20% of your group are AFK in normal mode.


Nick D
Premium
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA
reply to mettachain
I disagree!

FL had a much more visually appealing instance, the boss fights were in general more fun.

Let's compare (in rough boss order; FL sort of mucks with this due to the first 5 being doable in any order, but I'll go in the traditional normal mode order):
Morchok: has two completely disparate mechanics. The black blood phase exists solely to let healers regen mana and wasn't a fight mechanic at all. Tuned very easy since day 1. Heroic wasn't any more interesting, just a bit harder.

Shannox: dog kiting is at least fun for one person. Individual awareness to avoid traps and magma ruptures. Heroic changes the dynamic fairly significantly, as it becomes about dog control instead of burn.

Next set:
Yor'sahj: cute gimmick, but solvable beforehand. Addon or raid leader with a list calls out the ooze to kill. Ooze phases are primarily DPS and healing checks. In heroic, the addition of purple makes the healing more interesting, but otherwise its "can you survive and kill adds fast enough?"

Beth'tilac: mostly a kill adds fight, with the soft enrage finisher. Controlling the spiderlings adds a small gimmick to the usual "kill the adds fast enough" motif. DPS has to be balanced; there is entertainment in figuring that out and finding if you can send more people up. Heroic mode added intercepting the charging spiders, which I liked. Last phase is kind of dull, admittedly, since its a raw DPS and healing check.

Moving on:
Rhyo: a gimmick fight, and a frustrating one. The fight design is not ideal, I'll admit, but at least its not merely "kill the adds". In this group, DS wins out.
Zon'ozz: ball bouncing is a pretty boring gimmick because "stand here and try not to die" wasn't fun, though figuring out how many you could go without dying was worth pushing the boundaries. Killing the eyes in heroic wasn't interesting because "whee I have to interrupt and burst down an add!" isn't super compelling gameplay. It was mostly designed to tax your healers.

K, I got bored, but here's my examples. See other posts for my Rag v Madness opinions.

My aesthetics are better than your aesthetics!