Tech and Talk > Gaming > World of Warcraft > [Cataclysm] Was the nerf too much?

reply to Venom1

Re: [Cataclysm] Was the nerf too much?

The difference is heroic LK had pure execution mechanics that can still wipe you to this day (Shadow Traps and Defile), as well as being a beast of a numbers fight. Madness is just pure numbers, really: can you kill these mobs fast enough and can you survive this much damage? Also DS has terrible fight design overall, but Madness especially is depressing because there's nothing about it that is particularly difficult other than "I hope you can press buttons good".

I wonder how the heroic Rag kill numbers would be if he were the final tier boss, but nerfed DS-style (gradual up to 30%, but no gear inflation beyond farming H Firelands) (and I also mean without the ridiculous health nerfs as well) (also maybe a fixed Magma Geyser mechanic).

He's less "all or nothing" execution than LK, but has a lot of smart play mechanics: dodging World Aflame, effective meteor kiting, Dreadflame clearing, etc., so while more gear lets you get fewer meteors or less Dreadflame overall, it doesn't suddenly make the fight lulz worthy.

Well H-LK, if your not doing the meta is Lolz now.

You can DPS LK fast enough that p2 and p3 are completely skipped, so you go p1-intermission1-intermission2-less than 10%

Just have a good bit of ranged and have them go to max range for intermission, and stay there DPSing LK.

Pop Hero early on to get fewer shadow traps.

then if you want to do the meta its still easy (even on heroic)
use the arrows to plan the movements, each time a trap goes out the whole group moves over to the next.

while the 2 tanks do there thing, and people run to the right spot when they get that debuff.

I did 25-H-ICC full meta clear, due to how long it takes to get the 30stacks we ended up with LK enraging (ya some healer messed up and reset the stacks) and still killed Enraged LK.

reply to Nick D
Ya Rag is more fun than DS

IMO DS doesn't deserve to be a final tier raid.

reply to DarkLogix
Clearly never saw the pre-shannox trash pre-nerf.

i like turtles
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reply to mettachain

Once again. It was because it was new to you.

DS has been stale since April.
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Madness was weaksauce when I first did it.

Just no sense of accomplishment.

reply to mettachain
I disagree!

FL had a much more visually appealing instance, the boss fights were in general more fun.

Let's compare (in rough boss order; FL sort of mucks with this due to the first 5 being doable in any order, but I'll go in the traditional normal mode order):
Morchok: has two completely disparate mechanics. The black blood phase exists solely to let healers regen mana and wasn't a fight mechanic at all. Tuned very easy since day 1. Heroic wasn't any more interesting, just a bit harder.

Shannox: dog kiting is at least fun for one person. Individual awareness to avoid traps and magma ruptures. Heroic changes the dynamic fairly significantly, as it becomes about dog control instead of burn.

Next set:
Yor'sahj: cute gimmick, but solvable beforehand. Addon or raid leader with a list calls out the ooze to kill. Ooze phases are primarily DPS and healing checks. In heroic, the addition of purple makes the healing more interesting, but otherwise its "can you survive and kill adds fast enough?"

Beth'tilac: mostly a kill adds fight, with the soft enrage finisher. Controlling the spiderlings adds a small gimmick to the usual "kill the adds fast enough" motif. DPS has to be balanced; there is entertainment in figuring that out and finding if you can send more people up. Heroic mode added intercepting the charging spiders, which I liked. Last phase is kind of dull, admittedly, since its a raw DPS and healing check.

Moving on:
Rhyo: a gimmick fight, and a frustrating one. The fight design is not ideal, I'll admit, but at least its not merely "kill the adds". In this group, DS wins out.
Zon'ozz: ball bouncing is a pretty boring gimmick because "stand here and try not to die" wasn't fun, though figuring out how many you could go without dying was worth pushing the boundaries. Killing the eyes in heroic wasn't interesting because "whee I have to interrupt and burst down an add!" isn't super compelling gameplay. It was mostly designed to tax your healers.

K, I got bored, but here's my examples. See other posts for my Rag v Madness opinions.

My aesthetics are better than your aesthetics!

You really went all out to prove nothing didn't you?
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I like pontificating on the merits and pitfalls of Blizzard's encounter designs. I fondly remember Firelands and I think DS was a slog. And I wanted to explore why I felt that way in what I was hoping to be a constructive debate, or at least by rambling off my opinions.

But apparently that just gets condescending answers.

Thanks Kirk.

What's that? [I Can't Hear You Over The Sound Of How Awesome I Am]
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reply to Nick D
I can agree with you from a tanking perspective. Tanking in FL is more fun/interesting/challenging than tanking in DS. However, as a healer, I appreciate the complexities blizzard put into DS more (although I must say that the Baleroc fight was a very cool idea from a healing perspective).

Baeleroc was fun and stressfull PRE-nerf. After that first nerf it was easy-mode though. I really loved being a resto shaman on the Baeleroc fight though. That's when having that Mastery really shined.
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On my resto druid, it never felt "easy-mode"... the priest is a different story.

reply to mettachain

^^^^^ Missed it.
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