Home Improvement → Sewer flooding

You may think you're being cute and catty. Guess what you aren't. People whose homes get flooded in 100 year or 500 year events suffer catastrophic loses and is not something to deride. Low cost flood insurance is worth the investment.

My homeowners insurance here in New Jersey includes coverage for volcanic eruption. It's listed in the policy. Really. (But earth movement as a result of volcanic eruption is not covered.)

We had 3 sewer backups at our old house last year due to all the rain. Never had any in the 12 years we lived there but we also had the 100 year event last year.

It cost us about $1200 for the plumber to install the valve. The valve (RectorSeal) was provided by the sewage authority as a means of helping us out so I don't know what that cost.

What I was told (and passed on to the new homeowners) was lift it out and check it every 6 months and replace it if it looked bad (cracked, etc).

I know it worked as after we had it installed a week later we got 4 inches of rain and it stopped it from flooding the basement. When it trips no sewage can get out of the house so you do have to plan for that. Small price to pay not to have your neighbors crap in your basement!

Storm water should not be coming in through your sanitary sewer. Many cities had combined sewer/storm water systems, but the EPA mandated that sanitary and storm water sewer systems had to be separated, so that storm water won't back up into homes or overwhelm the sewage treatment plants and cause raw sewage to overflow and discharge into the waterways.

The deadline to separate the systems was several years ago, but not every city completed the job. Atlanta was fined thousands of dollars a day by the EPA for every day they were non-compliant after the deadline. They finally finished in the last couple years.

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Sorry to inform you but that is incorrect. Cities were required to stop dumping untreated sewage in the waterways during high rainfall events. There is a difference. Some cities like Richmond, VA built holding basins to collect it for later treatment.

To separate it would require every street to be torn up and new lines run and connected to every drain on the street. A cost no city is able to bear.

In some parts of the country that may be true (especially in less densely populated areas where a temporary holding tank or pond is feasible). As far as I can tell all the cities around here have opted for the dual pipelines (sewer drain to the water treatment plants and storm drains to the nearest creek or directly into the bay) since land is a precious commodity and hard to come by.

From what I heard over the years that separation project wasn't done all at once and isn't complete either. There doesn't have to be 100% separation as long as enough storm water is kept out of the sewers to prevent overflow conditions at the treatment plant.

There are 3 scenarios where there are still significant amounts of storm water enter the sewer system:
- old parts of the combined storm / sewer system still in place because the condition of the pipes hasn't justified a replacement yet.
- property owners illegally draining gutter downspouts or surface water (parking lots) into the sewer pipes.
- storm water entering through sewer manhole covers when the storm drains are overwhelmed and streets are partially flooded (not much that can be done about this one except improve the storm drains).

As far as I know our city has been okay but every once in a while you see the news that one of the bay area cities gets fined because their waste water facility was forced to let untreated water run into the bay. A lot of those facilities treat way more waste water then they were originally designed for due to the population growth in the area (and storm water separation helps with that problem too).

It is illegal to dump surface water into a steam, James River or the Chesapeake Bay even if you could run pipes that far. All surface water from roof drains, parking lots, streets etc drains into the sewer system here and ultimately goes to the treatment plant or is diverted to the river when extreme rainfall causes overflows.

In the outlying areas without sewers they are installing holding basins (ponds) to pipe the rain water runoff to instead of just letting it runoff into streams.

Under what jurisdiction is it illegal for storm water to go into streams and other drainage systems there?

EPA and the agreements with them to clean up the bay. All streams go to the Chesapeake Bay. Understand now?

I understand that you live on the bay. What I am wondering is how is it done. County by county? Within x miles of the bay?

Had a back flow device fail in a 3 story business complex in the basement. It was the only time I told my boss at that time I can't do this. Disgusting.

We had some friends at the bottom of a hill in Richmond that did not have any protection. Something went wrong with the sewer and flooded their home and all the ones around. The city would not pay for the damages. You can't believe the stench and mess.

Yes it will. Happened here. People took the city to court after so many times. Gov stepped in and gave the money when people went higher up. It's a design flaw and also not capable of actually supplying a growing city, and they likely knew it when it was installed decades ago. Many cities will go through this, or already have.

In addition, with the changes in weather they have to account for "30-year events, 50 year events, 75 year events and 100-year events. If this is happening on a yearly event or even a 5 year event, then the city has to be sued to fix their problem.Yeah. I think when I was having my nervous breakdown over this forum a couple of years ago when I bought this house and found all this out, all the history of the area, it was you and "Jack in VA" who explained it all to me, and since then the city engineers. Which basically regurgitated what you guys said.

I believe we touched on failure rates of back flow preventers (or back-water valves). The standard home depot stuff is anywhere from 6 weeks to 3 months tops. The engineers even gave me this info a little while after we discussed it here.

So if he goes with the standard home depot stuff, he should be clearing it out before a vacation, or before a major storm happens. Or at least 4 times a year (min).

Other than that, yeah.. you get into ejector pumps or pressurized backwater valves.

I recall posting pictures a few years ago when they started the work. My street is next summer. A plumber goes in each home, digs the basement and whatever other work they have to do to put one in, and in addition to this they put one on each device in the basement. So that means a backwater valve at the wall exit. One in the basement toilet. One on the basement shower, then the laundry room etc etc. Each device. All paid by the city. They will be digging up half my driveway and lawn as well.

In addition the "pseudo sewer system" being removed is replaced with a true split system. The largest in Canada from what I read.No.

So in regards to "fartness" and his concerns and nervous breakdown to come Don't give an inch to the city. Take them for everything you can. Every little screw you lost and total decontamination costs.

You should be talking with neighbours and get a dozen or so of them together and go split the costs of a lawyer among you all to force your city to pay every little thing possible. None of this crap about you paying the plumber or back-water valve. In addition the lawyer should make a demand about getting it fixed since what you stated shows it's a fault in the city design and system that can't handle a minor event.

Consider this and talk about it with others. Split the costs among a small gang of you to fight back. Or get walked on by the city as you give them your tax money for nothing.

It's actually the entire Chesapeake Bay watershed which includes most of Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania and D.C.



Above is the Virginia territory.

Combined Sewer Overflow (CSO) Locations in Virginia

The sewer backup insurance is not expensive. My premium is only $15 per year.

What is the deductible, and is it a separate deductible, say if a storm knocks your roof off?

You have a diff sewer design. Maybe a non-finished basement? WHo knows.

I know over here there are some houses/area's they will not even insure. I have it, but it will only cover up to something like 15K. They won't give more.

Most insurance companies are very wise to what area has what. I expect this guy to get bare minimum, 10-15K coverage. But the US may be different when it comes to insurance. Certainly isn't a 15$ add-on here when in a problem area.

Even with the millions being spent to refurb everything to surpass code. I call the INS and said I should be getting a reduction since the risk is low and the risk is limited to a 100 year event. Girl on the phone laughed at me and said, "insurance never goes down". Told me to bring the issue up with some Canadian board to force a review.

I expect I will have to get some signatures and the engineers reports before they stop laughing at me.

I expect no less in the states... But then again, we here horror stories here about how they don't pay out when things happen...

I'm curious what they will tell him. Let us know...

My insurance company has lowered rates in the past. They even give me 5% of my premium back when I renew.

Ah. Yeah, piddly combined insurance discounts, or loyalty discounts. etc etc But when rates go up, they don't actually lower the *stated* rate.

I get 10% for having a few things insured with them. But that didn't stop the rate from increasing. The rate should decrease due to the lower risk and lower probability of a damage causing event. Insurance is all based on probability and risk. Rates are based on that.

Anyhow... It will be interesting what they state to him. I'm a little curious about the differences between here and there.

They may demand a backflow preventer (backwater valve) before he even gets insured. Which is very possible.

Semantic notes:

The trade term backflow preventer seems to be used for potable water applications, i.e. a double check backflow preventer.

These are significantly different in design from backwater valves used for sewer applications. I don't know if there's a trade dictionary or model code distinction, but it helps reduce the scope of the discussion to know the difference.

I realize that this being a free country and English and all that, people will call things whatever they want regardless. Have a great weekend everybody. (Or would that be weekstart? )

Must be different in Canada. When we had our backups, us and a few neighbors talked to lawyers. Most said you'd have to prove gross negligence on the city's part. Like knowing about bad sewer pipes and not doing a thing, or it being a common thing after every rain. Basically if it's after a 50 or 100 year event you're SOL.

And then they said the cost would be very high with no guarantee of recouping anything.

Many wanted nothing to do with it as it was a loosing proposition for something that doesn't happen regularly. We were there 12 years and had the 100 year event last year.

There definitely are backflow preventer for other applications (such as check valves used by some municipalities at the water meter or anti-syphon valves for yard irrigation) but that doesn't mean that the term is exclusively reserved for those.

It may be a regional thing (as naming conventions often are) but at least on this coast businesses that sell and install these devices call them sewer backflow preventer.

Look into a "stand pipe".....illegal, yet effective. It can create excess pressure on your foundation walls, but will also not allow a floor sewer drain to back up into your basement. Had one many years ago in a big city, and all my neighbors would flood, but not me. I just kept my mouth shut.....

HDMan

I don't understand what a stand pipe has to do with stopping basement floor drain from backing up.

You need to look up the many different meanings of the term stand pipe. I didn't know that particular one either but there is indeed a backflow prevention device called standpipe (basement outlets are extended upwards by attaching vertical pieces of pipe).

This is not automatic: the standpipe is attached when flooding is anticipated and removed to return the basement to normal use. It is effective and low cost.

You attach a vertical section of PVC to your floor drain that extends up from the floor. Simple physics says the water around your house would then need to get as high as the top of the pipe in order for water to come out of the pipe. This raises the water level around your home (and your neighbors) and can create added pressure on your foundation or basement walls.

These were common in the city I grew up in, but were as illegal as all hell because frankly, you could flood your neighbors house in short order depending on how close your homes were. Never had a storm drain backup....ever.....but the rest of the neighborhood did.

Ok I see, the term stand pipe means something else to me. I don't see why that would be illegal, it's doing the same thing as a backflow preventer. It's just manual instead of automatic.

I am guilty of using both words (backflow preventer & backwater valve) interchangeably.

Guilty as changed.