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DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to MaynardKrebs

to MaynardKrebs

Re: Organic Food.. not as safe?

said by MaynardKrebs:

said by DKS:

So? That means what? Again, prove your assertion.

I've asserted nothing other than the FACT that CTV / w5 (a CTV product) is owned by Bell.

What I will now assert is that Bell appears to be busy dumbing down the content carried on their stations, promoting meaningless drivel cross multiple outlets, and generally not seeming to care much about facts in their newscasts -- and caring more about sensationalism.

And that has what connection to this story?

yoyomhz
join:2003-02-15
Beverly Hills, CA

yoyomhz

Member

#1 - Stanford's study is a pile of garbage.
#2 - Organic food is better in many ways. But it wouldn't be possible to prove it.



When I was growing up, in the 1970s, some orchardists never used respirators, like shown above. They never had that protective raincoat that is mandatory now. They never even used gloves. The information given to farmers back in those days by the 'experts' was from the dark ages. For example, and I'm not making this up - BC apple growers were encouraged to spray a hormone on red delicious apples, to make that variety more 'elongated' because the 'typey' red delicious sold for the most money back then. BC apple growers also used the hormone - ALAR - because in those days it was like the wild west - anything goes. And pesticides were a good way to make more profit.



In 1979 my friend's younger brother died from a brain tumour. There were studies that showed farmers in Kansas had higher rates of cancer of the lymphatic system caused by herbicides, and there were cancer clusters in small towns in California's San Joaquin Valley (caused by pesticides), and many other studies showed higher incidences of cancer and leukemia among farmers and farm workers.

In 1979 Robert Vanden bosch wrote 'The Pesticide Conspiracy' which exposed the greedy chemical industry, and all the other greedy people in agriculture, that were promoting the use of pesticides, and he showed how food could be grown in a more sane manner,

In the last twenty years farmers everywhere have cut down on the amount of pesticides they use. But we're still eating pesticide residues. Farmers aren't stupid - they don't like losing money, and they will spray when they have to. We eat those pesticides.

Some foods like onions have less or almost no pesticides. Other foods like peaches and apples and grapes have a lot more pesticides. Some places like eastern Canada and eastern USA hve more rain, so they use more fungicides than BC, which has the perfect climate for growing fruit and is probably the best place in the world for reducing pesticide use. 100% of Florida strawberries are drenched in fungicides to allow them to be shipped across the country.

Some pesticides are highly toxic in the short term, but quickly break down and are less toxic in the long term. Other pesticides are only mildly toxic in the short term, but cause cancer in the long term. No one ever thought about doing a study on how all those pesticides we're consuming react 'together' and what problems they cause in the long term. One thing we do know - almost everyone in the country, when they get old, suffers from health problems.

So if you think it's cool that women working at Costa Rica's banana plantations are dieing from cancer more than the average person, and you like saving 50 cents per lb. - then go buy the sprayed bananas. If you think it's cool that low paid farm workers are exposed to more pesticides every day they work in the fields, so you can save a few dollars, then buy the sprayed stuff. My friend's younger brother died from a brain tumour in 1979 - his father kept pesticide containers in the basement of their house. In those days, no one knew any better.

If it means that much to you, save money and buy sprayed food. But if all the costs of conventionally grown food, including subsidies and health costs to farmers and farm workers, and costs to the environment - if all the indirect costs of conventionally grown produce were added up - ORGANIC WOULD BE CHEAPER.

Yup. That's the weird part. if we did things right, organic would be cheaper.

We're subsidizing the pesticide companies, and eating the carcinogens.



»www.whatsonmyfood.org/fo ··· ?food=AP
LastDon
join:2002-08-13

LastDon

Member

But can't the same be given as an example with the amount of people that eat food with this crap on it and are perfectly fine and live a long long life?

There is always two sides to the story I believe ..

I prefer clean food with less chemicals but in the current state that we live in, everything has something with chemicals.

hm
@videotron.ca

hm to yoyomhz

Anon

to yoyomhz
Is there a list of the common pesticides, herbicides and other, used in both the US and Canada available some place?

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to yoyomhz

to yoyomhz
said by yoyomhz:

#1 - Stanford's study is a pile of garbage.
#2 - Organic food is better in many ways. But it wouldn't be possible to prove it.

Ah. A conclusive statement. No proof and no evidence.

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

urbanriot to yoyomhz

Premium Member

to yoyomhz
said by yoyomhz:

finally posted

YESS!! There you are!!

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1 to yoyomhz

Premium Member

to yoyomhz
said by yoyomhz:

#2 - Organic food is better in many ways. But it wouldn't be possible to prove it.

Allegedly better in ways impossible to prove? No thanks. I'll spend the extra money saved from not wasting it on "organic" food on something that is possible to prove a benefit from then.

I always laugh at the term "organic" anyway. To a Chemist, or Biochemist, "organic" means a chemical that contains carbon. And yes, many naturally produced compounds contain carbon. So do many synthetic ones. ALAR would be an example of an organic chemical.

There was a story about a type of cucumber specifically bred to be pest resistant so as to require less pesticide. Mission accomplished, but the cucumbers were now so naturally toxic that they caused contact dermatitis in packing workers.

Eating food with unsafe levels of anything is likely a bad idea. We have measures in place such that the food in your local supermarket is safe to eat, and is no worse than anything bought labeled "organic" for triple the price.

Other examples of fun "organic" chemicals

- Botulinum Most deadly poison known. And it's all natural too!
- Cyanide. Also naturally produced. (Careful eating those apples. Exists in seeds.)
- Ricin

Chemist
@videotron.ca

Chemist

Anon

said by Ian1:

We have measures in place such that the food in your local supermarket is safe to eat, and is no worse than anything bought labeled "organic" for triple the price.

That depends on the vegetable and/or fruit being sold. In some cases country of origin is also a factor. To say it's no worse than organic is a very gross exaggeration, nor is it true.

This also depends on the pesticide and/or herbicide used.

Your blanket statement is false. There are indeed things worse, and not at all equal, as you are trying to state here.

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1

Premium Member

said by Chemist :

said by Ian1:

We have measures in place such that the food in your local supermarket is safe to eat, and is no worse than anything bought labeled "organic" for triple the price.

That depends on the vegetable and/or fruit being sold. In some cases country of origin is also a factor. To say it's no worse than organic is a very gross exaggeration, nor is it true.

This also depends on the pesticide and/or herbicide used.

Your blanket statement is false. There are indeed things worse, and not at all equal, as you are trying to state here.

Uh huh... Such as? "Chemist"? What vegetable or fruit juice in my local Loblaws is bad for me? And was that something that the Stanford study ignored or is unique to Canada?

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

urbanriot to Chemist

Premium Member

to Chemist
said by Chemist :

That depends on the vegetable and/or fruit being sold.

You're absolutely right, as some produce absorbs and retains toxic chemicals more than others, like green beans, apples (there you go yoyo), bell peppers, lettuce, etc., while mangoes, cabbage, and a few others, not so much.

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1

Premium Member

said by urbanriot:

said by Chemist :

That depends on the vegetable and/or fruit being sold.

You're absolutely right, as some produce absorbs and retains toxic chemicals more than others, like green beans, apples (there you go yoyo), bell peppers, lettuce, etc., while mangoes, cabbage, and a few others, not so much.

Again, care to cite an example of a product on store shelves right now with toxic levels of pesticides or herbicides?

yoyomhz
join:2003-02-15
Beverly Hills, CA

yoyomhz

Member

Here's the definition of a dumb person:
I ate some toxic pesticides and I feel - GREAT. I want some more.
The guy is dumb because even though our bodes are amazing and we don't die when we eat posions, the pesticides can build up in the liver - and do their thing later in life.

Certain pesticides have the nasty habit of storing themselves in the fatty area of human brains - that's why so many farmers got brain tumours. And even 'safe' amounts can be harmful to unborn babies. That's why we're trying to reduce the amount of organophosphate pesticides we use on everything - because it ADDS UP. We already discussed the harmful effects organophosphates have on children on this forum.
They have long been known to be highly toxic to the nervous system, but their dramatic effects on the development of the brain were not appreciated until about 15 years ago, when studies in laboratory animals began to reveal profound effects on the development and migration of neurons in the infant brain. Early findings from human studies found surprisingly widespread exposure to these chemicals, and strong hints of neurological effects. So these new findings, in children aged 6-9 years, confirm a lot of prior evidence and demonstrate that the effects on the brain don’t simply disappear with time.
»switchboard.nrdc.org/blo ··· har.html
yoyomhz

yoyomhz to Ian1

Member

to Ian1
said by Ian1:

said by yoyomhz:

#2 - Organic food is better in many ways. But it wouldn't be possible to prove it.

I always laugh at the term "organic" anyway.

Actually we can prove it:

#1 - organophosphates proven to cause brain problems in children.
#2 - Bhopal India - pesticides manufacturer Union Carbide killed hundreds, poisoned thousands
#3 - pesticides kill bees
#4 - pesticides are carcinogens
#5 - no studies have been done to show pesticides safe in long term
#6 - Maternal exposure to certain pesticides during pregnancy predicts neurological deficits in children during childhood.
#7 - cancer clusters caused by groundwater contamination in California towns
#8 - 500,000 Chinese poisoned each year by pesticides
#9 - Pesticides drift for miles - poison neighbours
#10 - Pesticides kill natural predators, causing the need for more sprays (known as the pesticide treadmill)
#11 - Farmworkers using pesticides not sufficiently trained, apply the pesticides not according to the label.
#12 - Synergy - two pesticides together more toxic than each by itself. Don't eat an apple and a peach at the same time.
#13 - pesticides from one product contaminate others when produce is placed in the used boxes. Banana boxes, for example.
#14 - pesticides banned in Canada used in third world countries, at rates that are obscene. The fruit is then eatne by Canadians.
#15 - Lawyers of pesticide companies are dishonest. When poisoned farmworkers sue the big corporations they lose.

And the lsit can go on and on. We can prove organic is better. But there are a lot of dumb people around who think they're saving money. They're not.

»switchboard.nrdc.org/blo ··· har.html

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1 to yoyomhz

Premium Member

to yoyomhz
Far be it from me to dismiss random blogs found on the internet. But there's a logical stretch between "Pesticides can be harmful if you eat too much of them", and "Food found in the supermarket contains dangerous levels of them."

But carry on believing every random piece of information you come across on the web. That IS the definition of a smart person....

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

urbanriot to Ian1

Premium Member

to Ian1
said by Ian1:

Again,

said by Ian1:

Again, care to cite an example of a product on store shelves right now with toxic levels of pesticides or herbicides?

Why do you write "again"? You haven't previously asked me for anything that I didn't respond to and furthermore, I didn't refer to what you're asking for examples of.

Perhaps you're mixed up and replying to the wrong person or read something other than what I wrote.

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1

Premium Member

said by urbanriot:

said by Ian1:

Again,

said by Ian1:

Again, care to cite an example of a product on store shelves right now with toxic levels of pesticides or herbicides?

Why do you write "again"? You haven't previously asked me for anything that I didn't respond to and furthermore, I didn't refer to what you're asking for examples of.

Perhaps you're mixed up and replying to the wrong person or read something other than what I wrote.

You seemed to be in agreement with "chemist" and I asked him or her for an example in a previous post. But, can you list examples of common purchases made in the supermarket that have toxic levels?
booj
join:2011-02-07
Richmond, ON

booj

Member

Do you wash your fruit Ian?

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

urbanriot to Ian1

Premium Member

to Ian1
said by Ian1:

You seemed to be in agreement with "chemist" and I asked him or her for an example in a previous post. But, can you list examples of common purchases made in the supermarket that have toxic levels?

I was in agreement with "chemist"'s factual response, that "there are indeed things worse, and not at all equal" concerning a variance of toxicity in different foods. I added context to that response with examples of foods that retain more than other foods.

You're attempting to push forward on debating a point that I did not make.

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1 to booj

Premium Member

to booj
said by booj:

Do you wash your fruit Ian?

Yes. And I would wash "organic" produce as well.
booj
join:2011-02-07
Richmond, ON

booj

Member

said by Ian1:

said by booj:

Do you wash your fruit Ian?

Yes. And I would wash "organic" produce as well.

Then why do you ask people to cite for you toxicity levels in supermarket fruits when you know yourself they are present?

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1

Premium Member

said by booj:

said by Ian1:

said by booj:

Do you wash your fruit Ian?

Yes. And I would wash "organic" produce as well.

Then why do you ask people to cite for you toxicity levels in supermarket fruits when you know yourself they are present?

Nice illogical leap there. Did you notice my mentioning that I'd wash organic produce as well?

Wouldn't you? Ever hear of bacteria?
booj
join:2011-02-07
Richmond, ON

booj

Member

I have to leap over the holes in your logic, they are huge.

So, to be clear, you wash your fruit solely because you fear bacteria, not chemicals?

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1

Premium Member

said by booj:

I have to leap over the holes in your logic, they are huge.

So, to be clear, you wash your fruit solely because you fear bacteria, not chemicals?

Solely? Do I consider it possible that the manufacturer or farmer didn't properly rinse off the pesticides/fertilizers? Sure. And since I don't maintain a GC/Mass-Spec system in my kitchen, and also since I need to wash them anyway to remove bacteria, if it happens to knock off any extra chemicals, so what?

Quick question though, when was the last time there was a produce recall in Canada due to excessive pesticides? None that I can remember. Listeria? E-Coli? All the damned time.

So why not answer my question? Do you (or would you) wash organic produce?

If someone wants to worry about chemical exposure, they can quit worrying about their lettuce and look to the thousands of cars and trucks driving by if that's their thing.

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

urbanriot

Premium Member

Well, undoubtedly people would die from eating cars and trucks. Not recommended.

Chemist
@videotron.ca

Chemist to Ian1

Anon

to Ian1
said by Ian1:

said by urbanriot:

said by Chemist :

That depends on the vegetable and/or fruit being sold.

You're absolutely right, as some produce absorbs and retains toxic chemicals more than others, like green beans, apples (there you go yoyo), bell peppers, lettuce, etc., while mangoes, cabbage, and a few others, not so much.

Again, care to cite an example of a product on store shelves right now with toxic levels of pesticides or herbicides?

It may not (or may!) have toxic levels right off the shelves, but... Ian, are all herbicides and pesticides water soluble?

Do none of these herbicides and pesticides metabolize to something more harmful than the pesticide or herbicide itself?

None (either the original species or it's metabolite) are fat soluble and stay in your body to bio-accumulate?

You sure about this? Have you looked into the common North American ones?

How about the food stuffs from Costa Rica?

You made a blanket statement.

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1

Premium Member

said by Chemist :

You made a blanket statement.

No, I'm not the one making blanket statements.

There are people here making entirely unscientific leaps because the idea that organic produce is no better than regular is troubling to them. Some are organic farmers themselves. Some may have needlessly wasted money on organic produce. And by the way, simply "believing" that organic foods may have health benefits could have a beneficial placebo effect. So if that works for you, knock yourself out.

Are pesticides a good idea to eat a lot of? No. But we have entire government departments here and in the US working to try and make sure our food is safe, from the levels of pesticides found to types and quantity of bacteria present. As a Chemist, I know that our ability to detect compounds, even trace amounts, has grown by leaps and bounds. So just because you can find a pesticide in a given piece of fruit doesn't mean that it contains toxic levels of it. Even if accumulated over time. Sorry, but the scientific bar needs to be set a little higher for this kind of discussion. Which is what this Stanford study (and others like it) was trying to do.

If there's a nutrition problem in Canada to be concerned with it's with kids eating nothing but junk. For many families it isn't a question of which type of fresh fruits and vegetables they buy. They don't buy them. They throw a plastic fruit roll-up loaded with sugar and a can of coke into their kids lunch bag and call it food.

Chemist
@videotron.ca

Chemist

Anon

said by Ian1:

Are pesticides a good idea to eat a lot of? No. But we have entire government departments here and in the US working to try and make sure our food is safe, from the levels of pesticides found to types and quantity of bacteria present.

For many families it isn't a question of which type of fresh fruits and vegetables they buy. They don't buy them. They throw a plastic fruit roll-up loaded with sugar and a can of coke into their kids lunch bag and call it food.

Examples are 3 types of corn by Monsanto that had zero testing or evaluation and allowed on the market. All that was required by both health Canada and agriculture Canada was documents from Dow and Monsanto stating they meet guidelines and were safe. End of story. ZERO testing of anything in Canada.

It was France who actually did studies on them and found them containing toxic amounts of something (I forget what now) after 90-days of growth.

So does Canada and the US test everything? No. Not at all. They let the chem companies do it for them and write reports for them.

I believe I posted this in this forum a few years ago, you should be able to find it with a word search of Monsanto or something.

Fact of the matter is, Canada is terrible and not what you are making it out to be in yet another blanket statement. Or maybe you just aren't aware. I wasn't either till a few years ago.

In regards to the second paragraph. heh. Bingo! What's even worse, if I don't toss plastic food in the kids lunch they yell at me that they have no food to eat! Can't f'n win...

But yeah, Canadian food/crop reg's aren't anything to be desired... Maybe we are a leader is doing nothing. That's about it.
Chemist

Chemist to Ian1

Anon

to Ian1
Also, just wish to touch base on this with you Ian.

If one goes and actually reads this study, the researchers clearly state the data they aggregated from some of the various research was biased. In other words..... yup... not really honest data giving honest results and/or honest conclusions.

This is what this study is based on...

This is far from conclusive.
booj
join:2011-02-07
Richmond, ON

booj to Ian1

Member

to Ian1
said by Ian1:

said by booj:

I have to leap over the holes in your logic, they are huge.

So, to be clear, you wash your fruit solely because you fear bacteria, not chemicals?

Quick question though, when was the last time there was a produce recall in Canada due to excessive pesticides? None that I can remember. Listeria? E-Coli? All the damned time.

So why not answer my question? Do you (or would you) wash organic produce?

If someone wants to worry about chemical exposure, they can quit worrying about their lettuce and look to the thousands of cars and trucks driving by if that's their thing.

Listeria and and E-Coli do not taint fruit. They're found on tender vegetables close to black Earth like bean sprouts, scallions and mushrooms. Fruits, aside from rotten ones, are pretty much harmful bacteria free. To answer your question, I wash organic produce when it looks dirty. When you trust the source though, it's good to go.

The instances of chemical traces on fruit are well documented. You will encounter high levels of them if you eat unwashed fruit regularly. Rates in the latest CFIA sampling are about 0.4% of shelf produce having higher than safe amounts of pesticides/preservatives.

For someone so familiar with the state of the art in chemical detection, could you reassure us that such analysis is done on every source that provides produce? Are you not concerned that the food inspection funding, which provides you with the tenuous sense of security you have about pesticide prevalence, is being cut heavily?

From OP's NP article:
quote:
But the Stanford study should be a reminder that there is no compelling reason to make “going organic” a wider policy objective.
The main argument for "going organic" is about a healthy planet and sustainability. Organic food being healthier than non-organic was only a side effect, but it never really had a strong claim. To win on health and (more importantly) taste, freshness (locally grown) matters more.

hm
@videotron.ca

hm

Anon

said by Ian1:

Quick question though, when was the last time there was a produce recall in Canada due to excessive pesticides? None that I can remember.

There was also the Ottawa incident a few years back that was in all the news about strawberries having way too much pesticides. people were ending up in area hospitals with blistering on the lips and tongues and other allergic reactions.

This was about 6 years ago (+/-).

It happens...

Did you not hear of this Ottawa incident? Was on all the news at the time. Alerts were constantly being put out all summer so people would extra wash the berries. Since it wasn't too long ago, is should be findable on google... A quick search didn't show anything. Maybe a google-ninja can find it.

But that is extreme cases. But does that make lower concentrations just peachy and ok?

Lower concentrations of fat soluble DDT (and it's metabolites) won't harm you either in the short term. Should we put it on your eggs?