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dillyhammer
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reply to Hanks

Re: [Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplu

Wow.

The police need to be involved in this.

Mike



I_H8_Spam

join:2004-03-10
St Catharines, ON
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to Hanks

said by Hanks :

No need for a specific user to come forward a TON of people know about cloning modems on both Rogers and Cogeco networks.

Here is Karl Bode in 2010: »FBI Arrests Another Cable Modem Hacker

It's the nature of the beast it seems, leaving the trust to the end user device, the same device that can be modded. Maybe another layer of authentication needs to be added to prevent this type of abuse.

Look at the card cloning in the Nagavision 2 days, if they build it, people will steal it.
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agtle

@teksavvy.com
reply to I_H8_Spam

the thumb on the scale is the oldest trick in the book

(I can't be the only one who has worked a butcher counter)

however I'm torn... cogeco is also a notoriously incompetent company, and everyone knows the saying about not assuming malfeasance when stupidity is a very real possibility.

haven't been a cogeco customer since 2004. they couldn't bill properly then, and that was during the "flat rate" days.



urbanriot
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reply to dillyhammer

said by dillyhammer:

The police need to be involved in this.

You'd think they'd be involved if this was a real thing since people are, y'know, allegedly stealing.

I'm aware that plenty of people were jerking Cogeco around with modems 'off the grid' a few years back but I haven't heard any of that since they locked their shit down a number of years ago now.


dillyhammer
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In order for them to be involved there would have to be a complainant.

Doubt very much Cogeco would be willing, seeing as how the activity results in revenue.

So what does that make them?

Complicit?

Mike



urbanriot
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said by dillyhammer:

Doubt very much Cogeco would be willing, seeing as how the activity results in revenue.

If people are sharing services, some unwittingly by the allegations, it's lost revenue not increased revenue.


Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
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said by urbanriot:

If people are sharing services, some unwittingly by the allegations, it's lost revenue not increased revenue.

Well, there's a few different ways to look at it. If they're making $50 on overages, the revenue has been recovered and in fact the profit margin is higher because they don't have to factor costs for the maintenance of a full-time subscriber. The other thing to consider is that the revenue from the customer with a cloned mac may have never been legit revenue at all.

I can see the point they're trying to make. I've had discussions with Cogeco techs out there and while mac cloning isn't rampant as it used to be, it's still around. It probably just isn't to the level where it's worthwhile to get the police involved.


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said by Gone:

I've had discussions with Cogeco techs out there and while mac cloning isn't rampant as it used to be, it's still around.

Cogeco knows about it then, and knows the behaviour could result in overage charges for a customer that in fact had nothing to do with the usage.

Pathetic.You know, at one time I was thinking that cable actually had a foot up on UBB accuracy over DSL. Not any more.

said by Gone:


It probably just isn't to the level where it's worthwhile to get the police involved.

I suppose.

But the government needs to be involved. Not just on this fiasco, but on UBB overall. This is just another example of why this needs some oversight and regulation.

I wonder how long they're going to let this go on, customers getting bilked like this. It's horrendous.

Mike
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Cogeco - The New UBB Devil -»[Burloak] Usage Based Billing Nightmare
Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged


Gone
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Something needs to be done about the metering in general, but I'm not sure how you can regulate something that does not physically exist.



dillyhammer
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Electricity doesn't physically exist does it?

Notwithstanding that the bits end of things may need some thinking, we certainly need government intervention in terms of what can be billed, what can't, a dispute mechanism, and some price sanity.

Mike
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Cogeco - The New UBB Devil -»[Burloak] Usage Based Billing Nightmare
Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged



Gone
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said by dillyhammer:

Electricity doesn't physically exist does it?

No, but you can use mechanical methods of measuring it where you can verify the calibration. You can't do that with data.


dillyhammer
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said by Gone:

said by dillyhammer:

Electricity doesn't physically exist does it?

No, but you can use mechanical methods of measuring it where you can verify the calibration. You can't do that with data.

Yeah? Why not?

I have a conveyor belt at the shop at my client's plant. Product comes of a line. It comes down this belt. It crosses a line and hits a small piece of metal that's attached to a switch. That switch is attached to a controller. The controller causes a UDP packet to hit a port on a server where I have a daemon listening. That daemon increments the inventory of that product up by one.

What's the problem?

Mike
--
Cogeco - The New UBB Devil -»[Burloak] Usage Based Billing Nightmare
Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged


Gone
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You have the ability to visually watch those products come off the conveyor belt to ensure that the information being sent to that daemon is correct.

You can't do that with data.

And yes, I know you're going to say that that you can't "see" electricity either, but there are ways to 100% verify a level of voltage or amperage being provided beyond digital means, as electricity existed before digital equipment.



dillyhammer
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Something has to be done about this, sure as eggs is eggs.

People can argue until they're blue in the face about how data can't be regulated because it can't be accurately measured.

If that's truly the case, if it can't be accurately measured, then it should be billed for at all.

That is the spirit of Weights & Measures. What's their motto again?

Fair Measure for All

How about some of that.

In the Telecommunications Act

27. (1) Every rate charged by a Canadian carrier for a telecommunications service shall be just and reasonable.

How about some of that.

What part of the regulatory environment allows a telecommunications company to bill a customer for something they did not give to the customer.

In my world, that's fraud.

F. R. A. U. D.

Mike
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Cogeco - The New UBB Devil -»[Burloak] Usage Based Billing Nightmare
Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged



urbanriot
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said by dillyhammer:

27. (1) Every rate charged by a Canadian carrier for a telecommunications service shall be just and reasonable.

How about some of that.

What part of the regulatory environment allows a telecommunications company to bill a customer for something they did not give to the customer.

How about that? Who decides what is just and reasonable. Presumably that's debated by those who moderate these acts and the carriers. If you don't feel it's just, start writing your letters. If plenty of people write letters to the appropriate people, that they're being treated unjustly, perhaps something can be done.

As far as allowing a telecommunications company to bill a customer for something they did not give to the customer, did the friend of a friend concerning this thread get a bill for something they didn't receive? Without proof these are simply "friend of a friend" stories... if you really want something to happen, you need to encourage people to post their stories with copies of their bills like the guy in that thread many months ago with the super large bill.


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON

said by urbanriot:

said by dillyhammer:

27. (1) Every rate charged by a Canadian carrier for a telecommunications service shall be just and reasonable.

How about some of that.

What part of the regulatory environment allows a telecommunications company to bill a customer for something they did not give to the customer.

How about that? Who decides what is just and reasonable. Presumably that's debated by those who moderate these acts and the carriers. If you don't feel it's just, start writing your letters. If plenty of people write letters to the appropriate people, that they're being treated unjustly, perhaps something can be done.

As far as allowing a telecommunications company to bill a customer for something they did not give to the customer, did the friend of a friend concerning this thread get a bill for something they didn't receive? Without proof these are simply "friend of a friend" stories... if you really want something to happen, you need to encourage people to post their stories with copies of their bills like the guy in that thread many months ago with the super large bill.

Something doesn't seem right.....

In reality, if I'm a hacker and an "evil person" and I'm benefitting from this, I'm going to take it to the max...so to just use "40gb" in a month with a hacked modem doesn't sound right to me, if its me, and I know of a way to max it out, I'm gonna max it out and screw that other person to the $50 overage...not just go "Oh, I feel sorry and I'm only going to make them pay $15/month more"....that's just not how criminal elements work...you'd see Angelos and Angelos of usage....not just 40gb...

I feel like some people don't quite understand what they're getting themselves into, especially when you see the increased upload usage.

Example: World of Warcraft....if you haven't turned off the peer to peer functionality even after you've downloaded the patch, your computer is still going to serve uploads of data to other users who still need the patch so long as they've left their P2P on...

I'm sure most other MMOs like WOW are like this as companies would rather not pay for extra bandwidth.... So while you're looking to plug a potential hole or looking at it from that standpoint, I feel as though education about what programs are actually doing with your connection is important...and also to educate yourself on the options...

With start you'd still run into the same potential pitfalls...since its ALL on Cogeco's network, you could still clone that cable mac and go to town....

Anywho, something in this story just doesn't ring true.....I'm not saying that people don't clone macs, but if you were one of those people, you just wouldn't magically stop at 40GB...it just doesn't make sense....

diskdocx

join:2005-09-26
Burlington, ON

1 recommendation

said by nitzguy:

said by urbanriot:

said by dillyhammer:

27. (1) Every rate charged by a Canadian carrier for a telecommunications service shall be just and reasonable.

How about some of that.

What part of the regulatory environment allows a telecommunications company to bill a customer for something they did not give to the customer.

How about that? Who decides what is just and reasonable. Presumably that's debated by those who moderate these acts and the carriers. If you don't feel it's just, start writing your letters. If plenty of people write letters to the appropriate people, that they're being treated unjustly, perhaps something can be done.

As far as allowing a telecommunications company to bill a customer for something they did not give to the customer, did the friend of a friend concerning this thread get a bill for something they didn't receive? Without proof these are simply "friend of a friend" stories... if you really want something to happen, you need to encourage people to post their stories with copies of their bills like the guy in that thread many months ago with the super large bill.

Something doesn't seem right.....

In reality, if I'm a hacker and an "evil person" and I'm benefitting from this, I'm going to take it to the max...so to just use "40gb" in a month with a hacked modem doesn't sound right to me, if its me, and I know of a way to max it out, I'm gonna max it out and screw that other person to the $50 overage...not just go "Oh, I feel sorry and I'm only going to make them pay $15/month more"....that's just not how criminal elements work...you'd see Angelos and Angelos of usage....not just 40gb...

I feel like some people don't quite understand what they're getting themselves into, especially when you see the increased upload usage.

Example: World of Warcraft....if you haven't turned off the peer to peer functionality even after you've downloaded the patch, your computer is still going to serve uploads of data to other users who still need the patch so long as they've left their P2P on...

I'm sure most other MMOs like WOW are like this as companies would rather not pay for extra bandwidth.... So while you're looking to plug a potential hole or looking at it from that standpoint, I feel as though education about what programs are actually doing with your connection is important...and also to educate yourself on the options...

With start you'd still run into the same potential pitfalls...since its ALL on Cogeco's network, you could still clone that cable mac and go to town....

Anywho, something in this story just doesn't ring true.....I'm not saying that people don't clone macs, but if you were one of those people, you just wouldn't magically stop at 40GB...it just doesn't make sense....

Well, maybe. But think of it like hacking a bank account or stealing a credit/debit card. You could drain it of a million dollars, but that would set off red flags everywhere.

A few hundred here and there is much more likely to go unnoticed.

If you can clone a MAC, you can clone a number of MACs.

Perhaps better to run up a small number of gigs spread across a whole bunch of MACs than to blow the wad on one and get it shut down.

Just a thought.


dillyhammer
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said by diskdocx:

Well, maybe. But think of it like hacking a bank account or stealing a credit/debit card. You could drain it of a million dollars, but that would set off red flags everywhere.

A few hundred here and there is much more likely to go unnoticed.

If you can clone a MAC, you can clone a number of MACs.

Perhaps better to run up a small number of gigs spread across a whole bunch of MACs than to blow the wad on one and get it shut down.

Just a thought.

Precisely. It's about doing it undetected for as long as possible. I try not to confuse a thief and a hacker - two completely different animals.

Mike
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Cogeco - The New UBB Devil -»[Burloak] Usage Based Billing Nightmare
Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged


Barry

join:2008-11-04
Burlington, ON
Reviews:
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reply to I_H8_Spam

Here's a comparison of my WNDR3700 monthly traffic/average and Cogeco's. A convienient 1133.71MB difference. Not worth fighting for, but annoying nonetheless.


ruddypict

join:2010-03-24
kudos:2
reply to I_H8_Spam

I wonder, would this also affect TPIA?



Davesnothere
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1 edit
reply to nitzguy

said by nitzguy:

Something doesn't seem right.....

In reality, if I'm a hacker and an "evil person" and I'm benefitting from this, I'm going to take it to the max...so to just use "40gb" in a month with a hacked modem doesn't sound right to me, if its me, and I know of a way to max it out, I'm gonna max it out and screw that other person to the $50 overage...not just go "Oh, I feel sorry and I'm only going to make them pay $15/month more"....that's just not how criminal elements work...you'd see Angelos and Angelos of usage....not just 40gb....

...Anywho, something in this story just doesn't ring true.....I'm not saying that people don't clone macs, but if you were one of those people, you just wouldn't magically stop at 40GB...it just doesn't make sense....

 
If this 'MAC Clowning' is as easy to do as some say, then why use so much per subscriber that it leaves ZERO DOUBT as to what is going on ?

Stopping at 40GB or some moderate amount is just enough to cause dissent between the provider and some of their subscribers (and some customers will not even notice, just paying up blindly), but not enough for all parties to agree that something serious (nor what exactly) is wrong.

EDIT : As I read further, I see that the next 2 posters have made a similar point to mine.

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brian5

@cgocable.net
reply to I_H8_Spam

The cell companies measure it too. How is everyones cellphone bill data usage? I find mine is pretty accurate(when compared to usage showing in Android---- virginmobile).



Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
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said by brian5 :

The cell companies measure it too. How is everyones cellphone bill data usage? I find mine is pretty accurate(when compared to usage showing in Android---- virginmobile).

The difference is that cellcos also metre business/corporate accounts, and those kind of customers are far more likely to make a stink up to and including lawsuits if they feel the metreing is inaccurate and charging them for usage they didn't actually use.

Contrast this with Internet providers, where business and corporate accounts are almost universally unmetred, and the only ones who have to deal with it are residential users who are far more likely to just roll over and take it if there is an error.

If the same kind of metre inaccuracy was happening to Cogeco's business users, there would be suck a stink that they'd either have to correct the error or face the wrath of customers who are far more likely to take legal action if they feel they're being wronged.

resa1983
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North York, ON
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reply to nitzguy

said by nitzguy:

Example: World of Warcraft....if you haven't turned off the peer to peer functionality even after you've downloaded the patch, your computer is still going to serve uploads of data to other users who still need the patch so long as they've left their P2P on...

Actually, Wow only uses P2P during the patch process. Once you're done patching, all repairs are done via direct download from a Blizzard server. Its possible an installation is highly corrupted and downloads quite a bit from servers to replace corruption, but it couldn't account for anything near 40GB, as the game itself is only 25GB... Unless the system itself is unstable (like the Dell XPS630i with the faulty motherboards)..
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ruddypict

join:2010-03-24
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reply to ruddypict

So does anyone know if the MAC cloning issue is also an issue for TPIA providers? I was going to re-evaluate my current configuration now that TPIA has been available for a while. But I don't want to end up in a situation where I'm paying overages because some clown decided to dodge fees.



urbanriot
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Canada
kudos:3

... we don't even if it's a real issue on the MSO side. Considering that no one knows the truth of that scenario, it's unlikely you'll get anything more than hearsay for your answer. Friend of a friend or "I heard this story" kind of thing.



tristen1230

join:2010-12-26
Belleville, ON
reply to I_H8_Spam

Isn't cogeco just great.


MaynardKrebs
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reply to I_H8_Spam

I'd like to see somebody order a brand new service and get it installed in the presence of their lawyer.

Once the cableco technician finishes the install and tests (consuming maybe a few MB in the process), the cable modem is disconnected and handed to the lawyer who then hands it to a lawyer from anther firm to be placed in the 2nd lawyer's office safe. The cable outlet is physically capped with a tamper-evident wax seal or some other means of showing whether the connection was used.

Then the cableco bills are monitored by the lawyers for a period of say 4 months to see what usage is billed.

Total cost = 4 months cable internet bill + maybe a $1000 for lawyers. These are the sort of costs that should be shared by interested customers - or maybe even by CIPPIC - in order to get to the bottom of these 'phantom' usage bills.



dillyhammer
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Love it.

Mike


EdmundGerber

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reply to MaynardKrebs

said by MaynardKrebs:

I'd like to see somebody order a brand new service and get it installed in the presence of their lawyer.

Once the cableco technician finishes the install and tests (consuming maybe a few MB in the process), the cable modem is disconnected and handed to the lawyer who then hands it to a lawyer from anther firm to be placed in the 2nd lawyer's office safe. The cable outlet is physically capped with a tamper-evident wax seal or some other means of showing whether the connection was used.

Then the cableco bills are monitored by the lawyers for a period of say 4 months to see what usage is billed.

Total cost = 4 months cable internet bill + maybe a $1000 for lawyers. These are the sort of costs that should be shared by interested customers - or maybe even by CIPPIC - in order to get to the bottom of these 'phantom' usage bills.

This - a million times this!