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Grail Knight

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join:2003-05-31
Valhalla
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reply to Mele20

Re: FBI begins installation of $1 bil face recognition system

quote:
TSA has declared that no one can fly after December 31, 2012 without either a current Passport (I have an old Passport but not current) or a National ID driver's license.
Where does the TSA state this?

»www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/···nts.shtm
--
"Paranoia, the destroyer"


Name Game
Premium
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7

Maybe she means fly a plane like in going to flight training school and be a pilot...

»www.dhs.gov/news/2012/07/16/writ···ortation

»www.tsa.dhs.gov/travelers/airtra···x.shtm#3

I would assume if you are not a US citizen one would need a passport from their country and a visa if required.
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Gladiator Security Forum
»www.gladiator-antivirus.com/



SparkChaser
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join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
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reply to StuartMW

Easier to fly than vote in PA

If a voter does not POSSESS PROOF OF IDENTIFICATION FOR VOTING PURPOSES as defined at section 102(z.5)(2) of the Pennsylvania Election Code (25 P.S. § 2602(z.5)(2)) and requires proof of identification for voting purposes, the following applies:

You must declare under oath or affirmation by completing the Oath/ Affirmation Voter ID form that you do not possess any of the following forms of identification: In particular,

-Identification issued by the United States Government that includes my name, a photograph, and an expiration date that is not expired.*

- Identification issued by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania that includes my name, a photograph, and an expiration date that is not expired (unless issued by the Department of Transportation, then the expiration of the identification cannot be more than 12 months past the expiration date).

- Identification issued by a municipality of this Commonwealth to an employee of that municipality that includes my name, a photograph, and an expiration date that is not expired.

- Identification issued by an accredited Pennsylvania public or private institution of higher learning that includes my name, a photograph, and an expiration date that is not expired.

- Identification issued by a Pennsylvania care facility that includes my name, a photograph, and an expiration date that is not expired.

*In the case of a document from an agency of the armed forces of the United States or their reserve components, including the Pennsylvania National Guard, that establishes the voter as a current member or a veteran of the United States Armed Forces or National Guard and that does not designate a specific date on which the document expires, the document must include a notation indicating that the expiration is indefinite.

$13.50 fee for acquiring an Identification Card will be waived for individuals completing the Oath/ Affirmation Voter ID form. All identification documentation is still required to obtain an Identification Card as follows:

Step1
To obtain a Pennsylvania Photo Identification card for voting purposes, an individual needs to visit a Pennsylvania Department of Transportation Driver License Center with a completed Application for an Initial Photo Identification Card; form DL-54A, and the following:

Social Security Card
AND
One of the following:

Certificate of U.S. Citizenship
Certificate of Naturalization
*Birth Certificate with a raised seal

PLUS

Two proofs of **residency such as lease agreements, current utility bills, mortgage documents, W-2 form, tax records

*If they do not have a birth certificate with a raised seal and are a Pennsylvania native; and do not have one of the acceptable, alternative forms of photo identification to vote; and will provide a signed oath/affirmation form, when visiting the PennDOT driver license center, they must:

Tell the PennDOT customer service representative they are a Pennsylvania native who needs a photo ID for voting purposes, and do not have a certified copy of their birth certificate;
Sign an oath/affirmation that they do not have an acceptable form of ID for voting purposes and the photo ID is needed for voting purposes;
Show a Social Security card and two proofs of residence, such as a deed, lease, tax bill, or utility bill;
Fill out a DL-54A form requesting a non-driver photo ID and;
Complete the HD01564F (Request for Certification of Birth Record for Voter ID Purposes Only) form, which collects information such as birth name, mother and father's name and place of birth. This Department of Health form is available at all Driver Licensing Centers.

PennDOT will then forward the completed form to the Department of Health, which maintains birth records. After verifying the birth record is on file, the Department of Health will securely transmit this information to PennDOT. PennDOT will then notify them by letter that their birth record has been confirmed. They may then return to any driver license center, with the above noted documentation, to receive your free photo ID for voting purposes. This verification process will take up to ten days and does not require the payment of a fee.

**Students at least 18 years of age: Accepted proofs of residency include the room assignment paperwork (considered a lease) and one bill with their dorm room address on it. Bank statements, paystubs and credit card bills are all acceptable. Other Individuals who may not have any bills, leases or mortgage documents in their name may bring the person with whom they are living along with their Driver’s License or Photo ID to a driver license center as one proof of residence. Homeless individuals can use the address of a shelter as their residence provided they visit a Driver's License Center with an employee from the shelter that has an employee photo identification issued by the shelter and a letter on the shelter's letterhead indicating that the homeless individual stays at the shelter.

Step 2
When their application and supporting documentation have been reviewed and processed, a Driver License Center staff member will direct the applicant to the Photo Center to have their photo taken for their Photo ID card.

Step 3
Once their photo has been taken, they will be issued a Photo ID card.
»www.dmv.state.pa.us/voter/voteridlaw.shtml
--
--
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"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley

"I’m not familiar precisely with exactly what I said, but I stand by what I said, whatever it was.." - Mitt Romney


StuartMW
Who Is John Galt?
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Galt's Gulch
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reply to Mele20

said by Mele20:

Don't you have to go this year to renew even if your driver's license is still valid?

Not to my knowledge. My current one is only 18 months old.

I do know that some states require a new photo every 5-7 years, That is what I was referring to.
--
Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Name Game

said by Name Game:

Maybe she means fly a plane like in going to flight training school and be a pilot...

»www.dhs.gov/news/2012/07/16/writ···ortation

»www.tsa.dhs.gov/travelers/airtra···x.shtm#3

I would assume if you are not a US citizen one would need a passport from their country and a visa if required.

After December 31, 2012 you must have a Real ID driver's license (or current Passport) if you wish to fly anywhere in the USA. Since Hawaii was one of the last three states to comply with the Real ID Act that meant that Real ID licenses were only begun to be issued earlier this year (with huge lines and many hours wait time).

So, I got my license renewed in 2011 and paid for 8 year renewal (used to be only 4 years and still only 2 years once you hit 75). I had to pay a lot more for it than in the past because it is now an 8 year license and now I have to pay again, plus, the time and hassle. Hawaiian Air has on their site that no one can fly as of January 1 without the Real ID national driver's license now being issued in Hawaii (or a current Passport). Hawaiian says this is a TSA requirement. I had forgotten about it as I certainly was not going to go stand in the long lines when this Real ID crap was first started in Hawaii back about 4-5 months ago. I have to have another picture made and all the extra invasive crap will be in the new license. If I didn't need to fly, I could keep the old, less invasive license for seven more years. Thanks a lot TSA!
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


StuartMW
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Might be cheaper to get/renew a passport. Mine is still valid (I think).

FYI I think all new passports contain an RFID.
--
Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!



RickNY
Premium
join:2000-11-02
Farmingville, NY
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to StuartMW

said by StuartMW:

said by Mele20:

Don't you have to go this year to renew even if your driver's license is still valid?

Not to my knowledge. My current one is only 18 months old.

I do know that some states require a new photo every 5-7 years, That is what I was referring to.

Apparently not in New York.. I'm 41, and the picture on my license is the one that was taken when I was 21.


StuartMW
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Galt's Gulch
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reply to Mele20

said by Mele20:

After December 31, 2012 you must have a Real ID driver's license (or current Passport) if you wish to fly anywhere in the USA.

/Conspiracy theory on

Maybe so the FBI's facial recognition system can identify you more positively.

/Conspiracy theory off

They track you via your mobile phone (already) and soon your car.

Bottom line: we're this close to The Minortiy Report et al type tracking.
--
Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!

dave
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join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8

'The Minority Report' was primarily about pre-cogs; are the feds employing pre-cogs?



StuartMW
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Once the Tom Cruise character was on the run he was tracked by all the camera's around the place. The camera's recognized him.
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Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!



Grail Knight

Premium
join:2003-05-31
Valhalla
kudos:6
reply to Name Game

Who knows what she means.
The link I posted pretty must tells potential travelers what is required to fly inside and out of the US. WFM
--
"Paranoia, the destroyer"



Grail Knight

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reply to StuartMW

This is true and advertisements were catered to his character as he walked or ran by stores. Facial recognition had to have been in play as they were not the kinds in use now triggered by movement and are non-personalized.

Have to watch the movie again.
--
"Paranoia, the destroyer"



NormanS
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San Jose, CA
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reply to Mele20

said by Mele20:

Don't you have to go this year to renew even if your driver's license is still valid? Or when you got yours did your state already have National ID in place? Your comment in this thread reminded me that, although my license is good for seven more years, I have to go before the end of this year and PAY AGAIN to get a new one because mine was issued before our state finally began to comply with the National ID law (or whatever it is called). TSA has declared that no one can fly after December 31, 2012 without either a current Passport (I have an old Passport but not current) or a National ID driver's license. Since the only way to get around Hawaii is to fly, I have no choice but to get the new Big Brother license.

I found some information leading me to believe that DHS extended the compliance deadline to Jan. 15, 2013. It isn't clear to me if California will comply, or not. The state hasn't declared opposition outright, as have Maine, Montana, New Hampshire, and South Carolina; but the DMV doesn't seem to be in a rush to comply.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


Blackbird
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reply to StuartMW

From REAL ID Act:

quote:
The REAL ID Act of 2005, Pub.L. 109-13, 119 Stat. 302, enacted May 11, 2005, was an Act of Congress that modified U.S. federal law pertaining to security, authentication, and issuance procedures standards for the state driver's licenses and identification (ID) cards, as well as various immigration issues pertaining to terrorism. ...
The date for meeting the REAL ID requirements was last changed to January 15, 2013... after which, you will be required to have a REAL-ID-grade driver's license or a current passport to board a domestic aircraft in the US. Paper requirement details to obtain Real ID may vary with the state, but states as a minumum generally require official documentation of birth date (birth certificate), SSN (card), proof of current residence address (utility bill), and photo ID or non-photo ID including full legal name and birthdate ((current driver's license/ID). This is currently the case in Indiana, where both REAL ID and non-REAL-ID driver's licenses are currently available. Obtaining a REAL ID license here requires a trip to the license branch with the necessary legal papers so that they can be physically verified.

There are a number of special requirements about the REAL ID license itself that link it to various databases and contain anti-theft and anti-counterfeiting provisions.
--
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!" -- P.Henry, 1775

Mele20
Premium
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Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to NormanS

Yes, you are right that the actual date was extended and is January 15, 2013 but I told myself when all the newspapers, TV stations, etc. here in Hawaii were covering this earlier this year as Hawaii began to comply, that I would remember the date as January 1 so as to give myself a bit of extra time to get it done in.

I didn't remember that California was a no compliance state! The others I remember as being non compliant but I think several have, like Hawaii, complied this year. It affects Hawaii much greater than other states because we fly here on business, for health reasons, for pleasure, and to visit relatives on other islands, etc. and cannot use another mode of transportation. I would not want to find out what would happen if I were to suddenly need to fly to Oahu next year for urgent medical care and not have a Real ID. If I had to be flown by air ambulance it wouldn't matter but if I had to go by commercial flight immediately (say the next day after I saw my family doctor), well, I sure wouldn't want to be turned away by TSA because I hadn't yet gotten a Real ID.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson



StuartMW
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1 recommendation

reply to Blackbird


MY DL
I'm unclear as to whether this license will be in compliance.
--
Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Blackbird

Yes, it has already been a real headache for some here as they have no birth certificates. Then there are those, like myself, who were born in another state and have to request an original birth certificate from the other state which takes some time. Luckily, I have an original copy with the watermark/seal (that is required...no watermark...no acceptance of the certificate by DMV) in my safe deposit box for years now so I don't have to hassle with that. The thing is almost unreadable though. It was done on an old copying machine that made the background black and you can barely read it.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson



StuartMW
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1 recommendation

said by Mele20:

Yes, it has already been a real headache for some here as they have no birth certificates.

Seems a common problem in Hawaii
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Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!

Mele20
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Hilo, HI
kudos:5

Oh....don't get started on that one!!!



Blackbird
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reply to Mele20

Some time ago, I elected to use my passport for ID when flying, and that's one of the key reasons I always keep it current. As long as I can avoid going through the lines at the license branch to get REAL ID, it's worth it. Bottom line: if you want to fly, you'll have to provide pretty much the same data for REAL ID as you do for a passport.
--
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!" -- P.Henry, 1775



StuartMW
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1 edit

said by Blackbird:

Some time ago, I elected to use my passport for ID when flying, and that's one of the key reasons I always keep it current.

I haven't flown for a few years now (used to all the time for business) so I guess I'll keep my passport current too. In some cases (e.g. to open a PO box) you need two gummint issued photo ID's.

Edit: My bad. Just two ID's.
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Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!


StuartMW
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reply to Mele20

said by Mele20:

I didn't remember that California was a no compliance state!

Not sure if this is current but the list I found is:

quote:
Arizona, Georgia, Oregon, and Washington, with laws forbidding them to comply with Real ID and 8 states, including Colorado, Hawaii, and Illinois, that have enacted resolutions effectively boycotting it.

»news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20039568-281.html
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NormanS
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reply to Mele20

said by Mele20:

I didn't remember that California was a no compliance state!

We are not listed as "no comply" because the matter is still under discussion in Sacramento, as I understand it. DHS seems to think they will comply, eventually. But DMV isn't pressuring license holders to upgrade.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


StuartMW
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reply to StuartMW

BTW i see that (some of) the media is pushing the FBI system as a "crime fighting measure" (also depends on what is a "crime"). Of course the FBI (and others) would never dream of using data it gains from this technology for other purposes.
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Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!



burner50
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Fort Worth, TX
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reply to Grail Knight

said by Grail Knight:

Seriously tho even with horror stories and false IDs
sure to come down the road it could prove useful in the consumer market on smart phones.

My phone and tablet both use facial recognition for unlocking them...

well.... they have the capability of it...
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StuartMW
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I believe it was Mele20 See Profile that pointed out that some Samsung TV's like to look as well.
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Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!


dave
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join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
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reply to Grail Knight

read the short story instead...


OZO
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reply to StuartMW

said by StuartMW:

said by Mele20:

After December 31, 2012 you must have a Real ID driver's license (or current Passport) if you wish to fly anywhere in the USA.

/Conspiracy theory on

Maybe so the FBI's facial recognition system can identify you more positively.

/Conspiracy theory off

I always wonder why seeing the obvious things always require "conspiracy theory" brackets?

Are we now have to think only the way we've been programmed taught to think? And now, when we try to do it by ourselves, we have always to put it in a "conspiracy theory" brackets. I think it's a bad sign for a every free country, isn't?

If FBI is going to spend $1 Bln on face recognition, isn't that obvious that it would work more reliably, if they deal with the latest photos?

To me "the need" to excuse ourselves from a serious talk when we try to tell what we actually think is more important (and actually sad) sign, than the new face recognition project wasting $1 Bln of tax money...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


StuartMW
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1 edit

said by OZO:

I always wonder why seeing the obvious things always require "conspiracy theory" brackets?

Because someone will always post demanding proof for any conjecture. Of course one can't provide any because of the secrecy of the agencies involved but to many unless you have documentation (which wll be "fake" anyway) arguing is pointless.

Unfortunately adding 1 and 1 and getting 2 is often seen as "conspiracy theorism".
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OZO
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1 recommendation

said by StuartMW:

Unfortunately adding 1 and 1 and getting 2 is often seen as "conspiracy theorism".

You're right. But isn't that because we have taught to believe, that the government always knows it better and everyone, who may disagree, should now be labeled as "conspiracy theorist"? It looks like we're losing the ability (and become to be afraid of) to think for ourselves...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...