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WhyMe420
Premium
join:2009-04-06
kudos:1
reply to Ukiah Jim

Re: Can I get some opinions on my 2WIRE training history.

said by Ukiah Jim:

said by WhyMe420:

Your downstream attenuation is certainly high, but your SN Margin is still sorta decent. Doesn't leave much room for line variations though, possibly why there are so many CRC errors. If there is nothing that they can/will do about the attenuation then your only options are either interleaving or ideally (in terms of latency and stability) dropping the profile down to 3Mbps.

Well, if you look back at my first post, and the stats from the 2WIRE, my attenuation was about the same with the 3mbps, does that mean anything?

Also, last year, after this 5 month long fiasco
»IP-DSLAM 3.0 and continuing loss of sync issue.
with 20+ tech visits, my almost daily loss of sync issue was pretty much resolved. It would drop once in a few months, or whatever, so it was no big deal. Then last month I noticed it lost the signal about 4 or 5 times, so I emailed the U-verse care team, just to see if they saw anything weird. Naturally, the guy put me on interleaving right away.....typical. I emailed back and said I didn't want it on interleaving, so he put it back on fast path, but he said he had to upgrade me to 6mbps to do so, and would put it back to 3mbps, after the system reset.....something like that. He did put a nice promotion in place, and said his tests showed that all the numbers were good enough for the 6mbps to run smooth and stable, if I wanted to keep it there. Naturally I said keep it that way, especially since my 3mbps promotion would end in December.

So, I start getting more ERR_SIG_INTERRUPT, with the 6mbps, as opposed to ERR_LOS_LIMIT, with the 3mbps. Now, I don't claim to be an expert on this stuff, or anything close, but it seems I'd get more loss of sync when going to a higher speed, not just the signal being interrupted. The Tier II guys says it's getting enough code violations to interrupt it, but not lose it. WTF?? Seems odd to me, but what do I know....I'm just trying to use logic.

All that being said, I wonder what's better.....switch back to the 3mbps, no interleaving, and possibly get loss of sync once a day, or whatever, or put it on interleaving, and get latency, or leave just the way it is right now....6mbps, so far, not dropping the signal, just getting "interrupted", and have no latency??

The ideal thing would be AT&T actually resolving the real issue, but that's wishing for a lot.

Your attenuation will remain constant regardless of the profile rate and SNR. The only thing that changes attenuation is line length and line quality. If you were to add interleaving, your SNR would see a rise to a more acceptable value that has more tolerance for line interference/variances. Same goes for if you were to keep fast path and drop the profile rate. More room for variances.

Interleaving adds on average around 13ms to your latency. So it's up to you to determine if you can live with it or not. U-verse VDSL (such as what I have) makes interleaving MANDATORY as otherwise hardly any lines could support 18-24Mbps Internet. I think that my line could handle the 32/5 with ease without interleaving however I am only 750ft from the VRAD and as I said AT&T won't even let me disable interleaving. I still have very decent latency, sure it's nothing to brag about but it serves the purpose :-



Now... Back to you. If you can't get AT&T to do anything with the outside wiring then as I said those are your other two options (other than dropping AT&T.)

What the tech you spoke to was ATTEMPTING to describe to you was something called IMPULSE NOISE. Impulse noise can cripple an otherwise-healthy line as this type of interference comes and goes. One major factor in the case of xDSL would be LIGHTNING. Ever heard an AM RADIO? Ever heard that crackling in the background even when storms are so far away you don't even hear thunder?

Consider this: xDSL uses the same frequency range as AM radio. Thus, not only does it make unbalanced pairs susceptible to AM radio interference, but also to lightning in much the same way as AM radio. There are plenty of other things that can cause IMPULSE NOISE as well, such as street lights, HAM radios, wind blowing the lines, squirrels chewing the lines, etc.

So INHERENTLY xDSL is quite susceptible to interference, especially when coupled to the fact that many of the telephone lines are VERY old, and when installed were NEVER intended to be a roadway for broadband communication. They were designed to carry BASEBAND VOICE.

Think about the old dialup modem. Remember how SLOW it was? THAT is BASEBAND. Even dialup wasn't 100% consistent in the least.

Anyway long story short, three options:

1.) Get AT&T to fix the problem (if possible, highly unlikely they will even if it is)
2.) Go on interleaving and keep your 6Mbps.
3.) Stay on fast path, downgrade to 3Mbps.

PremTechLife

join:2012-09-16
reply to Ukiah Jim

Do you have a land line? I assume since one tab is a different color on the line module that it is a adsl splitter. I'd hope so, havent seen that one. Like the other poster said, I wouldn't imagine IW causing that many CRC errors. IF thats not an adsl splitter, and just a line module, you are bridgetapped to your red/green IW, not a HR. I have seen crc errors due to inside and outside bridgetap. Get it fixed, youre paying for it
--
I do not speak on behalf of At&t. Everything I write should be considered opinion and fiction; and in no way a reflection on At&t, its empoyees, or partners.


Ukiah Jim

join:2011-04-21
Ukiah, CA

said by PremTechLife:

Do you have a land line? I assume since one tab is a different color on the line module that it is a adsl splitter. I'd hope so, havent seen that one. Like the other poster said, I wouldn't imagine IW causing that many CRC errors. IF thats not an adsl splitter, and just a line module, you are bridgetapped to your red/green IW, not a HR. I have seen crc errors due to inside and outside bridgetap. Get it fixed, youre paying for it

It's an adsl splitter, beyond the shadow of any and all doubt.
»www.hometech.com/hts/products/wi···dsl.html


Forosnai

join:2011-09-30
kudos:2
reply to Ukiah Jim

My money is on just a bit of grounding that needs to be retouched. That much shielding on inside wiring is notoriously prone to charge buildup, which could cause those errors on what is otherwise a good looking line.


Ukiah Jim

join:2011-04-21
Ukiah, CA

1 edit

Click for full size
said by Forosnai:

My money is on just a bit of grounding that needs to be retouched. That much shielding on inside wiring is notoriously prone to charge buildup, which could cause those errors on what is otherwise a good looking line.

But where?
I've attached a pic of how it's done.....all by AT&T, so you'd think they'd know.........wait, did I say that?
You can see the ground wire going to what is a brand new 8 foot copper ground rod, and you can also see the other wire coming down off the house ground, inside the panel, to that same ground rod. They also put a brand new 8 foot ground rod at the pedestal, as well as replace the pedestal(and drop).

Ukiah Jim

join:2011-04-21
Ukiah, CA
reply to WhyMe420

said by WhyMe420 See Profile

Anyway long story short, three options:

1.) Get AT&T to fix the problem (if possible, highly unlikely they will even if it is)
2.) Go on interleaving and keep your 6Mbps.
3.) Stay on fast path, downgrade to 3Mbps.

Well, I'll stay on them to fix it......did it before, but the fight almost isn't worth fighting again, unless the send the tech that pretty much got it stable last year.

The other two choices seem like a no brainer to choose between, if I have to choose. It makes the most sense to stay with the 6mbps, even if I settle for interleaving, because even with a little latency....it's still considerably faster than 3mbps, on fast path, correct? Or would you say it's a wash? When he switched my 3mbps to interleaving, I could tell web pages were loading slower.

I attached a screenshot of my ping test a little while ago.


Ukiah Jim

join:2011-04-21
Ukiah, CA

 
 
 
 
 
 
Here's 6 ping tests in a row.

WhyMe420
Premium
join:2009-04-06
kudos:1
reply to Ukiah Jim

If it were me personally and I've exhausted my other options (I would be bugging AT&T just like you... Had to bug them for the longest time because of static on the POTS) then I'd probably go for the 6Mbps interleaved.


Ukiah Jim

join:2011-04-21
Ukiah, CA

1 edit

said by WhyMe420:

If it were me personally and I've exhausted my other options (I would be bugging AT&T just like you... Had to bug them for the longest time because of static on the POTS) then I'd probably go for the 6Mbps interleaved.

That's what I've been thinking.

The emails the last few days have basically been ignored, even though the guy was curious to see what would happen with the new RG(I knew......nothing), so I expressed that I didn't appreciate being ignored. Here's the email this morning:

"Ive ran the tests showing not too much of a difference in the line, it may be a little more stable than before but we are still getting the code violations as well."

And that's it. Says a lot.

Ukiah Jim

join:2011-04-21
Ukiah, CA

Click for full size
FWIW, here's how my NID looks now, and it's been just like this since last year, when my loss of sync issue was resolved.

Ukiah Jim

join:2011-04-21
Ukiah, CA

Click for full size
Click for full size
Speaking of possible grounding issues......you saw how my NID looks now, with the tracer wire from the shielded Cat5 attached as it should be, as well as everything else in the NID being as it should, as far as grounding, and you can see in the other picture how one ground wire goes down to the new ground rod, and the ground wire from the house ground also going to that same ground rod.

The tech that was here(last year) said the tracer wire doesn't do what it should unless there is a ground at the other end.....but that's the jack, or the RG, so I'm not sure what he meant, or if he was even right. He was the one guy out of all the techs that thought outside the box, and got my service to stop losing sync just about daily, so I have to assume he could be right.

Just curious what some of you here think. Any chance that's where the errors are coming from? I've also heard of creating a ground loop, and that causing problems too, but not sure if that's what I've got going on now.

Ukiah Jim

join:2011-04-21
Ukiah, CA

First thing this morning, and email from U-verse care:

"Jim,

Since we didn’t see a change with the new modem on the 6.0 speeds I am going to take you back down to the 3.0 and see if we have any difference in quality. If the quality doesn’t change out next step would be to change your line to interleaving."

Thank you,

xxxxxx

First thing I did was talk to Tier II, and get it put back to 6.0......furious at this lame "fix". The first email back was to inform this guy you don't switch anything until I say so.

The initial email was to see if they saw anything strange with my line, as it had dropped the signal 4 or 5 times in about a month. Prior to that it was pretty stable for almost a year, with a drop every few months, or whatever, on fast path!

First thing he does is put me on interleaving. I tell him to put it back to fast path. He does, but has to upgrade me to 6.0, and will put it back to 3.0 when the system resets, or whatever, but his tests are giving him numbers that show it will run smoothly at 6.0.Fine....leave it there. And he gives me a good promotion.
It doesn't drop the signal at 6.0, but gets too many code violations, and the signal is being interrupted, but now dropped. Why is it dropping at 3.0, but at 6.0 it's just being "interrupted"? Both on fast path.
They send me a new RG, it doesn't change anything.
They try NOTHING else, hence the email today, with the "band aid" fix.

Here is my email back to him:

Robert,

The first time you replied back to my initial email a while back, you stated you put me on interleaving, without trying anything else. Prior to that email, I had been at 3mbps, with fast path, for close to a year, with pretty stable connection.....maybe a drop every few months....no biggie. So you jumping right to interleaving was the "band aid" method, especially when it's been going for a year the way it was. Prior to the initial email you replied to, it had dropped the signal at least 5 times in about a month, and I asked if anything looked strange.

Then, after I told you I wasn't happy about the interleaving, you upgraded me to 6mbps(with a promotion, which I appreciated) to get me back on fast path, and you also said the numbers from the tests you ran looked good for the 6mbps to run smoothly. But, instead of it dropping the connection, there were interruptions, but no drops. Odd that it dropped with 3mbps, and fast path, but no drops, but significant interruptions with 6mbps, and fast path. The modem didn't do anything, and right away you want to put me back to 3mbps , where we now it actually dropped the signal.

You see why I got pissed? Nothing personal, and you can see on my account all I went through last year with AT&T. It just seems like the right way is to take steps backward, if need be. First, get Jxxxs Mxxxxxs, or someone that knows their shit, back out here. Then maybe try interleaving on the 6mbps......maybe. But dropping back to 3mbps with interleaving, when nothing was even done to see why it was dropping the signal at 3mbps, with fast path, when it rarely had in about a year prior........is just the quick and easy, "shut this guy up" approach.

I'm the wrong guy.

Jim

Essentially........screw them. Right now I can't afford the extra expense of cable, or I'd cut them loose, landline and all. I can't tell you how many people I know that have nothing but bad things to say about AT&T. It's really incredible.


Ukiah Jim

join:2011-04-21
Ukiah, CA

Just curious if anyone knows what the little icon that stands for "site marked" means, next to this thread title, on the page that lists the discussions?