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norwegian
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join:2005-02-15
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Re: Whistleblower goes to jail collects $104 Million


Anyone see the hypocrisy in this?

On one hand they want to nail Assange and Manning, and on the other they are 'paying' for whistle blowers who are in fact crooks themselves?

I need 20 litres of white wash for the graffiti on the Internet these days.

Hank
Searching for a new Frontier
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Hank

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With the cases you are comparing, somewhat. One relates to national security the other relates to civil crime. But I do agree that if you commit a crime you should not be able to profit from it. Remember the IRS is different and they will be the ones running your health care system in the near future.

Ian1
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said by norwegian:

Anyone see the hypocrisy in this?

On one hand they want to nail Assange and Manning, and on the other they are 'paying' for whistle blowers who are in fact crooks themselves?

Whistle-blowers who net the Government $800 million. And they did convict him of his crime. If Assange netted the Government of Sweden some money from his alleged crimes there, perhaps he'll get a chunk of that back too when he finishes serving his time if they have such a program. Assange isn't charged with anything in the US, or anywhere else.

Are we now going to bring Assange into any discussion about whistle-blowers from here on out?

red2
@fastwebnet.it

red2

Anon

How would you plan on catching criminal activity unless you use other criminals to inform? Who else will have inside information on the systems used to deceive the IRS? While it might be nice to talk to Snow White, it's unlikely that she'll provide much useful information.

So while I have not read all the articles, nor do I know all the particulars on this guy, the government usually wants to work cases from the bottom on up, using the small fish to incriminate the bigger ones until they can get to the top. Inevitably, in order to get the smaller fish to talk, they have to provide incentive. That's how they got to Martha Stewart.

Often those who inform are offered a plea deal where they won't do time. This guy obviously wasn't so lucky. The money, while a big amount, is a minor issue.

As for Assange, the US government would have probably had little issue with his actions if he stuck to just exposing corporate corruption. But when it related to affairs of state, the issue became whether you let Assange or a private in the army make decisions about what is "corrupt" and what isn't. Perhaps if Manning had restricted himself to just one issue (like the My Lai Massacre exposed years earlier), and wasn't wearing a uniform (like Daniel Ellsberg) he'd have invoked greater public sympathy.

Name Game
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join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI

Name Game to Hank

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to Hank

The Internal Revenue Service on Tuesday assured congressional lawmakers that agents would play no role in enforcing the controversial requirement that Americans buy insurance under President Barack Obama's health care overhaul.

"IRS revenue agents will not be involved. There will not be audits," IRS Deputy Commissioner Steven Miller told a subcommittee of the tax-writing Ways and Means Committee in the Republican-controlled House of Representatives.

The law, passed in 2010 and upheld by the Supreme Court, will charge individuals a fee, or tax, if they fail to buy insurance starting in 2014.

Opponents of the healthcare measure have focused on that requirement, with some Republicans saying they worry the IRS, the agency responsible for tax collection and tax law enforcement, will harass people who fail to buy insurance.

"In most cases, taxpayers will file their tax returns reporting their health insurance coverage, and-or making a payment, and there will be no need for further interactions with the IRS," Miller said.

»www.cnbc.com/id/48990224

Hank
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Hank

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said by Name Game:

The Internal Revenue Service on Tuesday assured congressional lawmakers that agents would play no role in enforcing the controversial requirement that Americans buy insurance under President Barack Obama's health care overhaul.

"IRS revenue agents will not be involved. There will not be audits," IRS Deputy Commissioner Steven Miller told a subcommittee of the tax-writing Ways and Means Committee in the Republican-controlled House of Representatives.

The law, passed in 2010 and upheld by the Supreme Court, will charge individuals a fee, or tax, if they fail to buy insurance starting in 2014.

Opponents of the healthcare measure have focused on that requirement, with some Republicans saying they worry the IRS, the agency responsible for tax collection and tax law enforcement, will harass people who fail to buy insurance.

"In most cases, taxpayers will file their tax returns reporting their health insurance coverage, and-or making a payment, and there will be no need for further interactions with the IRS," Miller said.

»www.cnbc.com/id/48990224

Lets see what really happens.

norwegian
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norwegian to Ian1

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said by Ian1:

Are we now going to bring Assange into any discussion about whistle-blowers from here on out?

No, it was a recent case, no more.

I was trying to initially bring to the conversation that being a whistle blower can theoretically mean 2 totally different things, and morality or ethics may have very little to do with which side of the fence you find yourself.

This case is about money, more and more decisions about legal affairs are about money and big corporation, than actually what is right or wrong. He should not have received a cent. Am I to now think I can do wrong and find ill gains from that exposé?
norwegian

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So we are to become lenient and forgive wrongs because it will benefit us personally in the long run? We are obviously thinking the same way, but we should not bend our morals and allow 'bad' to be forgiven over possibly gains for our own selves, singularly or entity.

Does blackmail suddenly become a good thing for example?

Hank
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Hank

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said by norwegian:

So we are to become lenient and forgive wrongs because it will benefit us personally in the long run? We are obviously thinking the same way, but we should not bend our morals and allow 'bad' to be forgiven over possibly gains for our own selves, singularly or entity.

Does blackmail suddenly become a good thing for example?

I am not sure where you are coming from. Who said anything about forgiving wrongs for personal benefit. I live by my core values and I do not modify them to fit the situation. I will not vote for someone if their core values differ from mine, I do not support anyone who's core values differ. So no where did I mention about ignoring any value system to support blackmail in any form.

Snowy
Lock him up!!!
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Snowy to red2

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said by red2 :


The money, while a big amount, is a minor issue.

What are the larger issues?

Ian1
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said by norwegian:

I was trying to initially bring to the conversation that being a whistle blower can theoretically mean 2 totally different things, and morality or ethics may have very little to do with which side of the fence you find yourself.

I think it's much simpler than that. The person engaged in two distinct activities. Committing an illegal act, for which he was tried and convicted, and helping the IRS recover punitive damages, for which he was entitled to compensation under the existing laws. Disagree with the law? ok.

But again, it has nothing whatsoever to do with Assange's very real raping troubles in Sweden, or even with any entirely hypothetical espionage charges made against him.

norwegian
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norwegian to Hank

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said by Hank:

said by norwegian:

So we are to become lenient and forgive wrongs because it will benefit us personally in the long run?

I am not sure where you are coming from. Who said anything about forgiving wrongs for personal benefit.

That comment was not specific to you and me, it was about the general public as a whole, should society bend to allow these behaviors on the premise that we get more money back from the whistle blower by rewarding him.
said by Hank:

said by norwegian:

We are obviously thinking the same way

But I do agree that if you commit a crime you should not be able to profit from it

This is where we thinking the same.

Sorry for the confusion, sometimes words over the airwaves do not come come out as expected.
norwegian

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said by Ian1:

I think it's much simpler than that. The person engaged in two distinct activities. Committing an illegal act, for which he was tried and convicted, and helping the IRS recover punitive damages, for which he was entitled to compensation under the existing laws. Disagree with the law? ok.

Yes I do then, it's documented now. He could have theoretically been planning all this knowing the final out come - to me that is worst than the act itself.

As for the second part, I'm not going there to keep this all on topic, but the fact remains a whistle blower should do it out of moral duties, not funds and rewards. That is basically where I stand.

red2
@fastwebnet.it

red2 to Snowy

Anon

to Snowy
said by Snowy:

said by red2 :

The money, while a big amount, is a minor issue.

What are the larger issues?

I thought I made that clear in the first part of that very paragraph:
said by red2 :

Often those who inform are offered a plea deal where they won't do time. This guy obviously wasn't so lucky.

So are we basically making money into an issue when the government offers plea deals all the time with criminals WALKING so they can obtain testimony to get to bigger fish? If you take issue with deals being made, are you suggesting that money is a bigger issue than letting criminals walk?

Insight6
join:2012-08-25

Insight6 to Ian1

Member

to Ian1
said by Ian1:

said by norwegian:

Anyone see the hypocrisy in this?

On one hand they want to nail Assange and Manning, and on the other they are 'paying' for whistle blowers who are in fact crooks themselves?

Are we now going to bring Assange into any discussion about whistle-blowers from here on out?

Just the Assange fanbois, just the fanbois! LOL!

Snowy
Lock him up!!!
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said by red2 :

said by Snowy:

said by red2 :

The money, while a big amount, is a minor issue.

What are the larger issues?

I thought I made that clear in the first part of that very paragraph:
said by red2 :

Often those who inform are offered a plea deal where they won't do time. This guy obviously wasn't so lucky.

I'd call the guy very lucky not to mention very wealthy.
40 months Federal with $104 million on the other side?
That's a great deal, shit, I'd take that deal in a heartbeat & I'm not even guilty.
I wouldn't do that for free though so yeah, the money must be the issue.

red2
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red2

Anon

said by Snowy:

I'd call the guy very lucky not to mention very wealthy.
40 months Federal with $104 million on the other side?
That's a great deal, shit, I'd take that deal in a heartbeat & I'm not even guilty.
I wouldn't do that for free though so yeah, the money must be the issue.

So what. To you money is the overriding factor. While to others of us freedom is a lot more important and has no price.

Are you also against the practice of paid informants? You seemed to be focused solely on the amount not on the concept. So if he only got paid $10,000, then it would be ok?

The money was decided by the IRS when they instituted this program, and my understanding is that it was independent of his conviction. He didn't turn himself in to get the money (which I'd take issue with), but informed on the bank. That's somewhat different than a mass murderer writing a book about HIS OWN exploits for profit.

norwegian
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said by Insight6:

Just the Assange fanbois, just the fanbois! LOL!

I mentioned it once as a way to gauge a difference between whistle blowers, but not be specific, next time I'll use another example.

So we understand Wikileak principles means nothing as a whistle blower because of a charge in Sweden, but a paid informant is okay? I didn't want to even continue on this path, so can we get back to the topic of people being paid as whistle blowers possibly for their own ends, and even possibly caressed into making the decision?

Although the Wikipedia [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Birkenfeld]entries seem conflicting?

Here he was employed to do the job?
quote:
In October 2001, Birkenfeld began working at UBS in Geneva, Switzerland as a private banker. His principal job responsibility was to solicit wealthy Americans to invest in the bank and thus avoid paying U.S. taxes. Although UBS was not permitted to give investment advice in the U.S., the bank instructed Birkenfeld and other similar employees to lie about the purpose of their trips to the U.S. Birkenfeld advised American clients how to avoid IRS scrutiny, including placing cash and jewels in Swiss safe deposit boxes. One of Birkenfeld's wealthiest clients was a California real estate developer, Igor Olenicoff. In 2001, Olenicoff and Birkenfeld met in Geneva, the result of which was a transfer of $200 million to UBS accessible by credit cards supplied by Birkenfeld.
Now there is a morality issue?
quote:
According to Birkenfeld, in 2005, he learned that UBS's dealings with American clients violated an agreement between the bank and the IRS. He resigned from UBS in October 2005 and complained to UBS compliance about the bank's "unfair and deceptive business practices".
And here takes advantage of the system?
quote:
In 2007, Birkenfeld decided to tell the DOJ what he knew about UBS's practices. At the same time, he wanted to take advantage of a new federal whistleblower law that could pay him up to 30% of any tax revenue recouped by the IRS as a result of Birkenfeld's information. Birkenfeld also wanted immunity from prosecution for his part in UBS's transactions.
I understand it is hard to take wikipedia on it's words and sometimes can be factual and sometimes can stretch the story due to the input sources, and I'm not allowed to specifically say he did or didn't, but the Internet can weave all sorts of stories, true or false, but if half of that is true, over a few years he decided to 'repent for his sins' and accept payment too? Hard to understand really....but that is the joys of journalism isn't it? What is fact and what is not?

Snowy
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said by red2 :

So what. To you money is the overriding factor. While to others of us freedom is a lot more important and has no price.

Trading 40 months Federal for $104 million isn't a bad deal.
The $104 million would be an offset against my shallowness.
said by red2 :

Are you also against the practice of paid informants?

I'd pay for information.
IM me if you've got anything good.
said by red2 :

You seemed to be focused solely on the amount not on the concept.

What concept?
said by red2 :

So if he only got paid $10,000, then it would be ok?

What would be OK?

rcdailey
Dragoonfly
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If I recall correctly, the IRS has been rewarding those who turn in tax cheats for a long time. You don't necessarily have to be a criminal to get a reward. You could turn in your neighbor and you might get some money. The difference here is the sheer size the the reward and the circumstances. I'm not sure about hypocrisy, but there does seem to be irony in this case.

red2
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red2 to Snowy

Anon

to Snowy
said by Snowy:

Trading 40 months Federal for $104 million isn't a bad deal.

Snowy, I'll try one last time, then I'll leave you to your interpretation.

There was NO deal. They were two INDEPENDENT events. He got paid for providing info on the bank not reporting its income. Independent of that, he was convicted for what I imagine was a lesser white collar offense while working at that bank.

He could have been paid and been innocent (though unlikely he'd have insider info on a bank's dealings without being part of it) or be guilty and collect nothing.

You state that "I'd pay for information.". PRECISELY. That's what the IRS program is all about, independent of who you are, and it's been in place for some time. This is news solely because of the size of the corruption and therefore the size of the payout.

You take issue with the amount that this guy received, but that is directly related to the tax revenue he helped collect. If the bank hid $100 billion, he'd have gotten even more.

Informants on the street are paid all the time. They are often not 'clean" but their crimes are considered far less important that the ones that they provide info on. THAT is the concept.

It isn't always a black and white world, and sometimes compromises are made. Now, whether you agree with that concept or not, I'll leave you to your interpretation of events.

Name Game
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join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI

Name Game

Premium Member

Would he have been what we so fondly call "whistle blowing"..if there was no monetary gain ? I am glad it took him 4 years to figure out it was illegal then 2 more years before he went to the DOJ..but I call that a crock of shit..6 years.

1. the DOJ does not consider him to be a whistleblower.
2. He left his job over a dispute about a bonus
3.He smuggled diamonds for one of his customers.
4. Even after "whistleblowing". he still advised some of his personal clients to hide money from the IRS.
Read even more here..

»www.time.com/time/busine ··· ,00.html

Maybe the DOJ will fine him $104m.

red2
@fastwebnet.it

red2

Anon

NameGame,

That's a great article. But while you presented a few details, the article DEFENDS this guy more than it vilifies him. It states while not a saint, he hasn't been treated fairly. It also sugests that after this, NO ONE will cooperate with the DOJ again.

"Considering Birkenfeld's help, many observers wonder why the Justice Department decided to arrest and prosecute him. In the end, he pleaded guilty to a single fraud conspiracy count;"

"Many critics believe the decision to prosecute Birkenfeld, whom some consider the most important whistle-blower in years, sends the worst possible message to other financial-industry insiders who might be considering coming forward."

"Birkenfeld voluntarily approached U.S. authorities in May 2007 offering details on the illegal tax shelters run by UBS,"

"When he realized that actual practices were violating stated bank policy, he raised his concerns internally;"

"After talking with the IRS, Justice and the Securities and Exchange Commission and appearing before the Senate — and being told on at least one occasion by DOJ officials that they were not looking to prosecute him — Birkenfeld was arrested"

"What is clear is that Justice was playing hardball. It refused to grant Birkenfeld a cooperating witness agreement — at which point some lawyers would have advised their client to cease cooperation"

Name Game
Premium Member
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI

Name Game

Premium Member

Could care less what the article defends... To me he has no defense..smart guy like him knew it was illegal from day one but when he had a tift with his bosses about a bonus..he waits another two years to blow the whistle..that's 6 years total and he knew one day the whole thing would get found out...but everyone in this thread defending him thinks if he did not blow it would have never been found out..I don't buy that either..feds were cracking down hard on the offshore hiding thing and they had a mandate to do so.

»mobile.bloomberg.com/new ··· urope%2F

Snowy
Lock him up!!!
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Snowy to red2

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said by red2 :

There was NO deal.

It's of no importance at all to the matter, but for accuracies sake there was a deal with the prosecutor. He plead guilty to one count of something or other for which he was sentenced.
said by red2 :

They were two INDEPENDENT events.

A whistle blowing matter with the IRS matter & a criminal prosecution, had that all along.
said by red2 :

This is news solely because of the size of the corruption and therefore the size of the payout.

I completely agree with that but that seems to contradict your earlier statement
(the thing I originally commented on)
said by red2 :

Often those who inform are offered a plea deal where they won't do time. This guy obviously wasn't so lucky. The money, while a big amount, is a minor issue.

You say the money is a minor issue then say if not for the amount of money we wouldn't even be aware of the events.
Yeah, that's confusing me.