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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7
reply to Styvas

Re: What's reasonable to expect in this case?

said by Styvas:

Now that we are going through this process, we are realizing that the manufacturer's warranty doesn't even technically transfer to a subsequent home owner, so any warranty coverage we are getting is because of the generosity of the furnace company.

What brand is the furnace? For a residential application, usually the parts warranty would transfer.


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
reply to Styvas
said by Styvas:

Now that we are going through this process, we are realizing that the manufacturer's warranty doesn't even technically transfer to a subsequent home owner, so any warranty coverage we are getting is because of the generosity of the furnace company.

What's the manufacturer? Im curious to read their warranty policy.
My Lennox furnace's basic coverage is transferable. That's for parts.

Also, sometimes the installer has to register the furnace, meaning that the manufacturer could know who installed it.

Im surprised there is no sticker on the furnace saying who installed it.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
said by alkizmo:

Also, sometimes the installer has to register the furnace, meaning that the manufacturer could know who installed it.

Im surprised there is no sticker on the furnace saying who installed it.

Again it could very well be the "flipper" That's exactly how many of them maximize their profits. Maybe that's why the OP doesn't know?

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
reply to Styvas
said by Styvas:

We knew what brand it was, but not the name of the HVAC company that installed it.

Just to clarify, the furnace was manufactured by one company and the AC is of an entirely different brand. Is this correct?


Styvas
Go Canucks Go
Premium
join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON
reply to cdru
said by cdru:

said by Styvas:

Now that we are going through this process, we are realizing that the manufacturer's warranty doesn't even technically transfer to a subsequent home owner, so any warranty coverage we are getting is because of the generosity of the furnace company.

What brand is the furnace? For a residential application, usually the parts warranty would transfer.

The furnace is branded Payne which I believe is a cheap brand of Carrier/Bryant).
--
"Moving your Tylenol to the low shelf in your medicine cabinet is not the way to prevent children from falling off a stool when reaching for the top shelf." (said by Savant, May 2008)


Styvas
Go Canucks Go
Premium
join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

said by alkizmo:

Also, sometimes the installer has to register the furnace, meaning that the manufacturer could know who installed it.

Im surprised there is no sticker on the furnace saying who installed it.

Again it could very well be the "flipper" That's exactly how many of them maximize their profits. Maybe that's why the OP doesn't know?

We went through the realtor to contact the seller/flipper and learned who had installed it. That's why we had that particular company come out to complete repairs when the A/C guys told us the problem was the furnace and not the A/C unit. We could have had the A/C guys repair it, but we'd have had no warranty coverage on the furnace through them (at least that's what I originally thought).

Why there was no sticker on the furnace is anyone's guess.
--
"Moving your Tylenol to the low shelf in your medicine cabinet is not the way to prevent children from falling off a stool when reaching for the top shelf." (said by Savant, May 2008)


Styvas
Go Canucks Go
Premium
join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON
reply to robbin
said by robbin:

Just to clarify, the furnace was manufactured by one company and the AC is of an entirely different brand. Is this correct?

Yes, the furnace is Payne (as posted above) and the A/C is KeepRite (associated with Carrier, but perhaps not manufactured by them).
--
"Moving your Tylenol to the low shelf in your medicine cabinet is not the way to prevent children from falling off a stool when reaching for the top shelf." (said by Savant, May 2008)


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
reply to Styvas
said by Styvas:

The furnace is branded Payne which I believe is a cheap brand of Carrier/Bryant).

quote:
If you're the original homeowner and you register your eligible product within 90 days of installation, you will receive a 10-year parts limited warranty*. Check with your Payne® contractor for the latest warranty information. You'll find your Payne warranty certificate included with the Owners Manual.
quote:
*Warranty period is five (5) years if not registered within ninety (90) days. Jurisdictions in which warranty benefits cannot be conditioned on registration will automatically receive a ten (10) year parts limited warranty. R-22 compatible air conditioner and heat pump units receive a 5 year parts limited warranty and are not eligible for a 10 year parts limited warranty regardless of jurisdictions.
So you have minimum 5 years.

Go claim for the blower. But labor isn't covered, sadly.


Styvas
Go Canucks Go
Premium
join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON
said by alkizmo:

said by Styvas:

The furnace is branded Payne which I believe is a cheap brand of Carrier/Bryant).

quote:
If you're the original homeowner and you register your eligible product within 90 days of installation, you will receive a 10-year parts limited warranty*. Check with your Payne® contractor for the latest warranty information. You'll find your Payne warranty certificate included with the Owners Manual.
quote:
*Warranty period is five (5) years if not registered within ninety (90) days. Jurisdictions in which warranty benefits cannot be conditioned on registration will automatically receive a ten (10) year parts limited warranty. R-22 compatible air conditioner and heat pump units receive a 5 year parts limited warranty and are not eligible for a 10 year parts limited warranty regardless of jurisdictions.
So you have minimum 5 years.

Go claim.

I was just Googling for that myself. lol! Note that it says "original homeowner" and it is not transferable. I don't see the non-transferable part in the section you've quoted. It's on the registration card available at »www.docs.hvacpartners.com/idc/gr···P459.pdf.

OWNER-OCCUPIED, RESIDENTIAL APPLICATIONS
This warranty is to the original purchasing owner only and is not transferable. Except as otherwise stated, if the product is installed in an owneroccupied
residence and is properly registered within 90 days after original installation (see Warranty Conditions below for registration
instructions), then the warranty period will be ten (10) years from the date of installation. Otherwise the warranty period is five (5) years
from the date of installation. The warranty period on the heat exchangers is twenty (20) years.


--
"Moving your Tylenol to the low shelf in your medicine cabinet is not the way to prevent children from falling off a stool when reaching for the top shelf." (said by Savant, May 2008)


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
said by Styvas:

I don't see the non-transferable part in the section you've quoted.
»www.docs.hvacpartners.com/idc/gr···P459.pdf.

»www.payne.com/warranty.html

What you have is the registration card to get 10 years instead of 5 years. You can't get 10 years unless you're the original owner OR unless Ontario forbids registration requirements.

Either way, you have at least 5 years. Even without the receipt, they'll calculate the 5 years started 90 days after the manufacturing date (In the product links in that page). I doubt that the furnace was stored for years after it was manufactured.


Styvas
Go Canucks Go
Premium
join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON
said by alkizmo:

said by Styvas:

I don't see the non-transferable part in the section you've quoted.
»www.docs.hvacpartners.com/idc/gr···P459.pdf.

»www.payne.com/warranty.html

What you have is the registration card to get 10 years instead of 5 years. You can't get 10 years unless you're the original owner OR unless Ontario forbids registration requirements.

Either way, you have at least 5 years. Even without the receipt, they'll calculate the 5 years started 90 days after the manufacturing date (In the product links in that page). I doubt that the furnace was stored for years after it was manufactured.

I see your point. The only further complication, if this is correct, is that it is highly likely, but not certain, that the A/C unit shorting cause the furnace problem (notwithstanding those who disagree with this hypothesis). If that's the case, then the warranty would not apply, because the problem was not due to defect but external damage.

I'm still operating on the assumption that the blower will be replaced under warranty as was the control board. It's only the fact that the owner of the company suggested that it might not be covered that I am worried about this. If it's covered, then my total outlay is about $400, which is labor charges and not covered.

Unless the A/C company will reimburse me that amount, it's out of my pocket for damages caused by their product. Hence my original question as to whether it was reasonable to expect that I would be compensated for expenses by the company whose product caused the damage and incurred the expense.
--
"Moving your Tylenol to the low shelf in your medicine cabinet is not the way to prevent children from falling off a stool when reaching for the top shelf." (said by Savant, May 2008)


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
A shorted compressor IMO does not cause the damage to other equipment you describe. How do you plan to convince the AC Manufacturer the damages are their responsibility? I would fight you in court. Compressor yes, other no.


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
said by Jack_in_VA:

A shorted compressor IMO does not cause the damage to other equipment you describe. How do you plan to convince the AC Manufacturer the damages are their responsibility? I would fight you in court. Compressor yes, other no.

In that logic, the furnace manufacturer cannot claim the damage was done by another appliance.


Styvas
Go Canucks Go
Premium
join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON
reply to Jack_in_VA
I hear you, and I'm not going to try and argue because I have no expertise on which to do so. In the absence of other technical opinions here, the only other person I've spoken with is an electrician who disagrees with you. The scenario he laid out based on the factors involved appeared logical and well argued.
--
"Moving your Tylenol to the low shelf in your medicine cabinet is not the way to prevent children from falling off a stool when reaching for the top shelf." (said by Savant, May 2008)


Styvas
Go Canucks Go
Premium
join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON
reply to alkizmo
said by alkizmo:

said by Jack_in_VA:

A shorted compressor IMO does not cause the damage to other equipment you describe. How do you plan to convince the AC Manufacturer the damages are their responsibility? I would fight you in court. Compressor yes, other no.

In that logic, the furnace manufacturer cannot claim the damage was done by another appliance.

That's correct, which is why I'm caught in the middle. Both sides have a vested interest in blaming the other.
--
"Moving your Tylenol to the low shelf in your medicine cabinet is not the way to prevent children from falling off a stool when reaching for the top shelf." (said by Savant, May 2008)


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to Styvas
said by Styvas:

I hear you, and I'm not going to try and argue because I have no expertise on which to do so. In the absence of other technical opinions here, the only other person I've spoken with is an electrician who disagrees with you. The scenario he laid out based on the factors involved appeared logical and well argued.

Ok I'm done with this. I've been around the field for more than 40 years so please have your electrician explain how he determined his analysis.

Otherwise good luck. You will need it plus divine intervention to prove your assertions.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to alkizmo
All is needed is to prove how a shorted compressor caused the control board and blower fan to "burn" up some time after the compressor failed.

Compressors on Heat Pumps fail all the time. Just turn the condenser unit off/pull the fuses and continue on using strip heaters and fan.

scross

join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN
reply to Styvas
Well, from a fragility perspective - knowing that the control board is only 24V while the compressor is 240V, and the wiring for each reflects this - the logical conclusion is that whatever killed the compressor side (the loose wires there) is also what took out the control board; I have no ready explanation for the blower motor, but since it is only 120V then I guess the same logic applies.

In other words, from an electrical perspective, the control board is a light-weight, the blower motor is a medium-weight, and the compressor is a heavy-weight. A failure that might take out the control board wouldn't necessarily be powerful enough to take out the other two, but a failure that takes out the compressor might easily take the other two with it. On the flip side, the 24V wiring that ties the control board to the compressor isn't going to handle much of a surge before it blows, but if the fuses blew and the board still died then whatever occurred must have happened fairly slowly (in relative terms) - slow enough that the fuses didn't have time to blow out completely first and protect the circuits.

I actually suffered a similar set of failures a while back, on my 25+ year-old system. First a wire to the compressor failed, due to rust, age, and vibration fatigue; this was easily fixed (by me) for a few pennies; I don't recall that it tripped the breaker. Then a few months later the control board failed with a burned/blown trace; this was also easily repaired by me for a few pennies. (At the time I did not connect the two events because they were so far apart in time.) Then the next season I had another wiring failure right at the compressor (harder to fix given its location but still cheap), which definitely tripped the breaker, followed a few weeks later by another control board failure (a burned out relay), which was not worth fixing. (Thanks to eBay, at $50 it was cheaper to go ahead and replace the whole board than it was to try and replace that relay.) So based on the sequence and timing of events here, in retrospect I would have to say that two separate compressor wiring failures led to two separate control board failures - although there was a considerable delay between these failures both times.


nunya
LXI 483
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
·Charter
·voip.ms
reply to Styvas
Here's my theory. Inside the Cheapazz brand condenser, the line voltage spade terminal or screw rumbled off the contactor and hit the LowV spade (They are about 1/2" apart). When the 120V hit the LowV, it fried the circuit board in the furnace. On some CB's that control circuit going out to the condenser isn't going to be fused.
That's a plausible scenario in my mind. Who's responsible? Clearly the A/C manufacturer or installer. My guess is the installer, as most contactors use screw terminals for the line side.

The furnace guy has no liability. Especially since system changes were made (not by him) AFTER he did his install.

Now on to the blower motor: I can't fathom how this previous scenario would damage the blower motor. I think it was probably just bad on it's own. This one falls on the furnace guy.

Unfortunately, you fall into the "too many cooks" scenario. Seeing as how the original furnace installer didn't immediately tell you to "shove off" (they easily could have), I'd say I'd have them handle everything, and see if they can handle the warranty work on the Cheapazz compressor going forward. Fire the A/C installer.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.

Zach1
Premium
join:2006-11-26
NW Minnesota
Sounds plausible. Also, if the blower motor is a variable speed ECM, the high voltage on the control circuit will smoke it. Another idea would be a plugged condensate drain causing a pan overflow which floods the ECM blower motor, smoking the internal VFD and causing high voltage to appear on the control circuit(s). Either way, the furnace or the furnace installer isn't at fault.
--
Zach


whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
kudos:9
reply to nunya
said by Jack_in_VA:

The amount and type of damage you describe is more indicative of a large electrical surge either from the power company or lightning strike. A simple shorted compressor would not likely do the damage to other components especially the fan motor.

said by nunya:

line voltage spade terminal or screw rumbled off the contactor and hit the LowV spade ...fried the circuit board in the furnace. ...
Now on to the blower motor: I can't fathom how this previous scenario would damage the blower motor. I think it was probably just bad on it's own.

I agree with both Jack & nunya. Yeah, the short in the compressor may have fried the furnace board. It didn't do anything to the blower motor - nor could it. The blower motor likely went bad on its own. Really, only a nearby lightning strike or similar transient event on the utility side could 'fry' the blower. And if that happened, you would likely have a lot of other noticeable damage in the house.


Styvas
Go Canucks Go
Premium
join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON
If the blower ran for a bit without the compressor running, is it possible that something with the evaporator that could have caused the blower failure? For example, would running in this state possibly cause condensation that could have dripped onto the blower and caused it to short? I have no idea of the configuration inside the furnace, so it could be a ridiculous suggestion.
--
"Moving your Tylenol to the low shelf in your medicine cabinet is not the way to prevent children from falling off a stool when reaching for the top shelf." (said by Savant, May 2008)


nunya
LXI 483
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join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
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Not really. Ex: My blower runs 24/7/365 irregardless of whether the A/C or heat is on.
The blower is simply a fan. That's it. It's no different in principle than any other fan.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.


Styvas
Go Canucks Go
Premium
join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON
Does it make any sense that the furnace tech was able to make some change (rewiring?) so that the fan would run at a slower speed while we wait for the new part?

He warned us to be careful that the AC doesn't freeze up while using it like this. It was already showing condensation after a couple of hours so we just turned it off. It hasn't been too hot, anyways, so we're just living without it.
--
"Moving your Tylenol to the low shelf in your medicine cabinet is not the way to prevent children from falling off a stool when reaching for the top shelf." (said by Savant, May 2008)


nunya
LXI 483
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join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
·Charter
·voip.ms
Yes. Most blower motors are 2 to 4 speed motors. The high speed winding burned up and he moved it to the low or medium speed winding.
When in heat mode, the motor usually runs at a lower speed. When on A/C mode, the motor usually runs at a higher speed. The copious amount of air keeps the evaporator coil (A-coil) from icing over and freezing up.
A dirty air filter or dirty A-coil will cause a freeze-up too.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.


Styvas
Go Canucks Go
Premium
join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON
Interesting. What is the consequence of a freeze up?


nunya
LXI 483
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
On some systems, it could possibly damage the compressor.


Styvas
Go Canucks Go
Premium
join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON
Could it cause the short that we've been discussing?


whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
kudos:9
said by Styvas:

Simply put, wires inside the compressor were loose and, presumably, the vibration of the frequent fan activity caused them to touch and short out.

Isn't this how the short was caused?


Styvas
Go Canucks Go
Premium
join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON
Yes, the wires inside the compressor were loose as described. I'm just curious as to any other possible explanation.