dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
2921
share rss forum feed


Irun Man
Spartan up
Premium
join:2002-10-18
Walden, NY
reply to dogma

there's another choice

I leased a 2012 Toyota Prius PHV (Plug-in Hybrid Vehicle) two months ago. Granted the battery range is less than half the Volt's, HOWEVER it gets better overall fuel economy in mixed EV/hybrid driving. When I was plugging it in at home and work (a 45 mile round trip commute) I was getting about 72 MPG. Also, the PHV charges in 2.5 hours on a 110V, 15 amp circuit... that's not really an option with the Volt which requires 220.

Leasing offers are on par with the Volt.
--
I turned on my computer for this?


guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by Irun Man:

Granted the battery range is less than half the Volt's

that's not really an option with the Volt which requires 220.

The Volt is 38 miles to the Pip 11 EPA electric range

The Volt Charges just fine on 120V as that's the charge cord that comes with the car

My lifetime average mpg is in the 220mpg range as I only use gas when I drive to see family and hour away, otherwise its all EV 100% of the time.


Cho Baka
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·Cogeco Cable
reply to dogma

Re: Chevy Volt justification

I suspect the reference was to 240V providing a more usable charge time on the Volt.

Time to charge on 120V for the Volt is somewhat more leisurely at 10.5 hours.

»www.insideline.com/chevrolet/vol···mpg.html
--
The talented hawk speaks French.



stev32k
Premium
join:2000-04-27
Mobile, AL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Mediacom
·DIRECTV
·AT&T Southeast
reply to dogma

I realize this is an old thread, but one thing I didn't see in the analysis is the cost of batteries.

How many charge cycles are they good for? What is the cost of replacement? And finally as they get older and start to wear out what happens to the travel range? Instead of 50 miles per charge do they now get 40, or 25 miles? That could be a real bummer if you got stranded. I don't know if AAA can deliver a few KWs to get you home.


guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

The Volt is battery is warranted for 100K , 8 years with no reduction of range.

The Actual capacity of the battery's is 16kw, but the car only uses 11kw ( computer controlled on the range ), the rest is a buffer for both optimum life and as the battery range declines over-time, the range the user sees is constant due to the buffer

CA cars are warranted for 150K miles , 10 years

Cost for replacement pack from GM is listed as $3,000

You never get "stranded" in the Volt, when the battery is depleted, the engine/generator seamlessly takes over producing electricity. In 20 years, even if the battery is minimal range, you still have a car that gets 37MPG


Dodge
Premium
join:2002-11-27

said by guppy_fish:

....
You never get "stranded" in the Volt, when the battery is depleted, the engine/generator seamlessly takes over producing electricity. In 20 years, even if the battery is minimal range, you still have a car that gets 37MPG

From my experience with GM cars, in a few years nothing in that car will be "seamless".

And as far as the warranty goes, who cares if the battery itself is covered for 8 years, what about the electric systems surrounding it? Those computers are probably ten times more expensive than the battery, and considering how "popular" the car is, it's not like you'll be able to pick up parts from a junk yard in a few years.

And on a side note, will the car's computer even allow the car to operate fully if the battery craps out?

guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

The Volt has the highest owner satisfaction of an car being produced, its number 1. You can choose to poo-poo, I choose to drive it and enjoy

All power train electronics are 100K / 5 years and one is free to purchase an extended warranty, just like any other modern car which is full of computers and other electronics.

I'd like to see some hard figures that the electronics are any more expensive than any other 40K vehicle. No one will be repairing cars themselves like the old days and junk yard hunting for parts, only dealers have the tools for diagnostics and the Volt is far from alone in this regard.

Lets meet in 10 years and compare notes ... its all guess what will happen then


Dodge
Premium
join:2002-11-27

said by guppy_fish:

The Volt has the highest owner satisfaction of an car being produced, its number 1. You can choose to poo-poo, I choose to drive it and enjoy

Out of 13,497 sales (as of 9/1/2012) of a heavily rebated and subsidized car. Yeah people are happy because they feel like they got a great deal, since GM is just short of blowing customers and dealerships to move this.

said by guppy_fish:

I'd like to see some hard figures that the electronics are any more expensive than any other 40K vehicle. No one will be repairing cars themselves like the old days and junk yard hunting for parts, only dealers have the tools for diagnostics and the Volt is far from alone in this regard.

Lets meet in 10 years and compare notes ... its all guess what will happen then

We don't have to wait 10 years, your statement proves my point. "Only dealers have the tools". For most cars good local shops have the tools to deal with popular cars. A diagnostic shop not far from where I live has dealer computers for most popular cars. Seeing how they'll probably never encounter a Volt, I doubt they'll buy any specific hardware / software for it.

Local shops labor rate is about 60% of the dealer. Parts are discounted vs dealer, and you have an option for aftermarket parts, but again seeing how well the Volt is selling, i doubt there will be a lot of those, and if there will be they'll all be special order (as in you'll see you are in a week or 3)

guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

The sales are interesting, certain groups and media like to claim the Volt is a failure for its sales, which are over 20K now for the year, while it handily beats more that 50% of the cars on the market in sales

»www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelan···failure/

Many vehicles get special government tax treatment, like all pickup and large SUV's that can take a 25K section 179 deduction because they are over 6000 lbs, yah for gas guzzlers

On dealer only parts and service, most cars are now that way unless they are in the top 10 list in sales. The days are numbered were independents have the tools are skills to work on any hybrid, or high end car like Audi, BMW, Porsche and Mercedes-Benz. Need something for a Corvette?, no one is complaining that is no different than a Volt in regards to service. Want anything for the Prius or Honda Hydrids, factory only for that as well.

Its sad so many have such mis-informed opinions about a car the was design and is built in the US and is a leader in advanced technology. Its one of the few cars that the US exports, which is has over 7,000 this year to EU in both the Volt and Ampra badge


Dodge
Premium
join:2002-11-27

said by guppy_fish:

The sales are interesting, certain groups and media like to claim the Volt is a failure for its sales, which are over 20K now for the year, while it handily beats more that 50% of the cars on the market in sales

Did you see what it outsold? Luxury cars, sports cars, etc.. Most (if not all if you exclude Lexus performance hybrids), hybrids were selling better than volt, so that statistic means nothing and is just something GM wants to be out there.

said by guppy_fish:

On dealer only parts and service, most cars are now that way unless they are in the top 10 list in sales. The days are numbered were independents have the tools are skills to work on any hybrid, or high end car like Audi, BMW, Porsche and Mercedes-Benz. Need something for a Corvette?, no one is complaining that is no different than a Volt in regards to service. Want anything for the Prius or Honda Hydrids, factory only for that as well.

This may be a regional thing, but in NYC, good / reputable shops can take care of most of these things. On the other hand, in NYC a car like volt is utterly useless since there is nowhere to charge it.

said by guppy_fish:

Its sad so many have such mis-informed opinions about a car the was design and is built in the US and is a leader in advanced technology. Its one of the few cars that the US exports, which is has over 7,000 this year to EU in both the Volt and Ampra badge

Built in the USA, great...so is my Nissan and half of Toyota fleet, whereas not counting volt most of GM is made in Mexico or Canada. As far as being a leader in advance technology, What technology? What is the volt doing that no other car is doing or they were the first to do?


Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
reply to guppy_fish

said by guppy_fish:

The sales are interesting, certain groups and media like to claim the Volt is a failure for its sales, which are over 20K now for the year, while it handily beats more that 50% of the cars on the market in sales

»www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelan···failure/

Many vehicles get special government tax treatment, like all pickup and large SUV's that can take a 25K section 179 deduction because they are over 6000 lbs, yah for gas guzzlers

On dealer only parts and service, most cars are now that way unless they are in the top 10 list in sales. The days are numbered were independents have the tools are skills to work on any hybrid, or high end car like Audi, BMW, Porsche and Mercedes-Benz. Need something for a Corvette?, no one is complaining that is no different than a Volt in regards to service. Want anything for the Prius or Honda Hydrids, factory only for that as well.

Its sad so many have such mis-informed opinions about a car the was design and is built in the US and is a leader in advanced technology. Its one of the few cars that the US exports, which is has over 7,000 this year to EU in both the Volt and Ampra badge

my car is a gas guzzler v6

I get a whopping 17mpg city 19mpg highway filler up with 89octane.


bobjohnson
Premium
join:2007-02-03
Orlando, FL
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·T-Mobile US
·Sprint Mobile Br..

I'm considering getting one for the wife since our lease of the 20 mpg Malibu is up beginning next year. I personally wouldn't buy one but will lease it. I'm not sure I want to pay for the maintenance and things breaking in 6 years... Things usually break outside the warranty period.



bobrk
You kids get offa my lawn
Premium
join:2000-02-02
San Jose, CA
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to dogma

My place of employment has electric hookups with free electricity for employees. I would estimate 400-600 workers at this location.

Yesterday, I noticed the following collection of plug-in vehicles:

4 Leafs
3 Volts
2 Tesla Model S

I think the Leaf count is low, but 3 Volts is new.


Dodge
Premium
join:2002-11-27

1 recommendation

reply to dogma

I just did some math based on pure MSRP since people's negotiations skill vary:

Volt with leather and floor mats ~41000
Altima 2.5 SL with leather, floor mats and random useless garbage ~29000. I think Camry will come out around the same amount and so would Accord. The cars were chosen based on something I recently looked at and seem comparable to Volt in size.

That's 12000 difference.

By choosing a cheaper car that sacrifices nothing in terms of size, luxury, performance, etc.:

If you keep the car for 3 years that's $333.33 per month difference that you can spend on gas on gas

Over 5 years 200 dollars a month you can spend on gas

Over 10 years that's a 100 a month difference.

Now this assumes that volt uses no gas over that period of time, which is a very big assumption. Add to that the cost of electricity to charge this thing and I am not sure what's being won here by purchasing a Volt?

Now I don't know how well Volt leases out, but I would guess in a lease situation it won't win either.



bobrk
You kids get offa my lawn
Premium
join:2000-02-02
San Jose, CA

There's a $7500 tax credit.


Dodge
Premium
join:2002-11-27

said by bobrk:

There's a $7500 tax credit.

Do you actually get $7500 or does it lower your AGI by $7500? Because if it just lowers you AGI for most people it will not result in enough savings.

But even if you get $7500 cash (which I highly doubt), that still leaves almost 5 grand unaccounted for in the price differences.


bobrk
You kids get offa my lawn
Premium
join:2000-02-02
San Jose, CA

I think it's just a tax credit. So if your taxes are more than $7500 then you subtract that from them. If less, then you don't pay tax.


guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to dogma

There are number ways you can benefit from the tax credit

1) you earn enough $$ to have a tax liability of 7500, so get it all back when you file your taxes

2) you can increase you withholding, but take care to match what is expected as the tax credit would yield

3) if you lease, Ally and US Bank through the increasing the residual value reduce the lease payment, to the tune of about 5K, leases are in the low 300's for a 36K/3 year lease on a base Volt

FYI:

The average discount right now is about 5K on a Volt, that's 3K below MSRP and 2K GM kicks in


Dodge
Premium
join:2002-11-27

said by guppy_fish:

3) if you lease, Ally and US Bank through the increasing the residual value reduce the lease payment, to the tune of about 5K, leases are in the low 300's for a 36K/3 year lease on a base Volt

a lease on a fully loaded 2.5 SL altima is under 300, a lease on a base altima is $169-$199. Again roughly the same numbers on camry and accord.

So no matter how you spin it, the dollars just don't work out.

said by guppy_fish:

FYI:

The average discount right now is about 5K on a Volt, that's 3K below MSRP and 2K GM kicks in

The average discount on the cars I've used to compare is about 2-3k off MSRP easy, plus variable rebates that vary by region.

So I am sorry, but no matter how people try to spin the numbers, from TCO stand point it will take a very, very long time to break even on a Volt, if at all possible.


TheTechGuru

join:2004-03-25
TEXAS
kudos:2
Reviews:
·HughesNet Satell..
·WesTex Connect
reply to dogma

I would go with a VW TDI Diesel for now. Hybrids are just a fad and are not the future.

Hydrogen Fuel Cells are the future.

Something I'd consider if someone made one is a Diesel-Electric (like a train). Diesel engine turns generator only and unlike a Hybrid is not connected to the drive train.
--
CompTIA Network+ Certified


guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by TheTechGuru:

Something I'd consider if someone made one is a Diesel-Electric (like a train). Diesel engine turns generator only and unlike a Hybrid is not connected to the drive train.

That's the Volt drive train, its 100% electric ( aka serial Hybrid ) from the battery, the gas engine drives a generator.

On the Fuel Cell, it will never match the efficiency of battery electric as you have to somehow create the Hydrogen which isn't a fuel at all, its a carrier of energy and you have to make it somehow.

As for efficiency creating hydrogen to then use a fuel cell is less than half as efficient as just using a battery which already will provide electricity back without the need for a fuel cell.

»www.ecoworld.com/energy-fuels/th···oax.html
»www.kvab.be/downloads/lezingen/h···rier.pdf