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elitefx

join:2011-02-14
London, ON
kudos:2

4 edits
reply to Hooter

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

said by Hooter:

......but a temporary solution until Rogers gets their act together!

Doesn't look like that's going to happen anytime soon according to Rogers TOS:

said by Rogers :

To the maximum extent permitted by applicable law:
• neither Rogers nor Yahoo! guarantees or warrants the performance, availability, coverage,
uninterrupted use, security, pricing or operation of the Services, the Equipment or any
products, content, applications, services, facilities, connections or networks used or provided by
us or third parties (collectively, the “Offering”);
• you bear the entire risk as to the use, availability, reliability, timeliness, quality, security and
performance of the Offering connections or networks; and
• neither Rogers nor Yahoo! makes any express or implied representations, warranties or
conditions, including warranties of title or non-infringement, or implied warranties of
merchantable quality or fitness for a particular purpose, with regard to the Offering.
All representations, warranties and conditions of any kind, express or implied, are excluded to the
maximum extent permitted by applicable law. To the maximum extent permitted by applicable law,
no advice or information, whether oral or written, obtained by you from Rogers, Yahoo!, or our
agents, dealers or representatives, creates any term, condition, representation or warranty not
expressly stated in the Service Agreement.
You are solely responsible for the following matters:
• any access to the Equipment;
• maintaining the security and privacy of your property and your transmissions using the
05/07
Services, the Equipment or our facilities or network; and
• protecting against any breaches of security or privacy or other risks involved in installing,
using, maintaining or changing the Services or the Equipment.
28. Unless otherwise specifically set out in the Service Agreement, to the maximum extent permitted by
applicable law, neither Rogers nor Yahoo! will be liable to you or to any third party for:
• any direct, indirect, special, consequential, incidental, economic or punitive damages
(including loss of profit or revenue; financial loss; loss of business opportunities; loss,
destruction or alteration of data, files or software; breach of privacy or security; personal
injury; death or any other foreseeable or unforeseeable loss, however caused) resulting or
relating directly or indirectly from or relating to the Offering or any advertisements,
promotions or statements relating to any of the foregoing, even if we were negligent or were
advised of the possibility of such damages.......

IMHO Rogers is under no obligation to guarantee service, performance, uninterrupted use, equipment reliability or even a connection to the network.....


pmd

join:2012-08-08
Manotick, ON

After 4 or 5 calls to tech support, I got bumped up to Customer Service, who finally promised me "management" would phone me after I complained that their "firmware" is being pushed to my equipment, which I cannot block, resulting in problems which prevent me from using my 2 PVRs as I unplug them when not in use (rather than keeping them on 24/7 and recording music at night to prevent standby).
The call from "management" finally connected a week later and I was offered a 1-month rebate - about $80. Very fair IMO. I told them I'd rather have a fix but accepted the rebate. I will start the process again if it's not fixed in another month.
--
Computing 46 years and still get stumped by tech problems.


LeadFoot

join:2012-09-21

In 2010 when the firmware update to the 8300HD started the hard drive cycling on and off every few minutes and after a number of calls to Rogers, I finally told them "As far as I was concerned they were damaging my purchased PVR and that I was going to unplug them until they fixed the problem and I expected a free rental". The CSR said that sounded reasonable to him and made a call to Customer Relations (I think) and I picked the rental up later that day. Months later after another update left the drives spinning 24/7 (an acceptable fix), I went to return the rental and was told it was free for a year, so might was well keep it. When the year was up (early 2012), I tried to return it and was told I could keep it for another year (long time good customer promotion). I'm glad I did. Since my purchased PVR is really a spare, I've unplugged it again.



batkinson001

join:2006-08-07
Oshawa, ON

1 edit
reply to pmd

Thanks for all who posted here, it has influenced my decision to NOT purchase/Rent the Rogers Nexbox PVR device at this time... My LG LRH-780 is not dead yet (getting there though), just need a new Digital Cable box... will wait for the bug fixes.



tinytommy

@bell.ca

Hey, Rogers_Chris, how about an update?


Hooter

join:2009-08-17
Scarborough, ON

He has no updates. I posted on Facebook today and this is what I got from Chris.

When we have more information we'll be sharing it. @Rogers_Chris

AND THIS!

Of course we've checked with Cisco and we have no updates to share at the moment. I'd tell you more but we don't have anything to tell! Sorry. @Rogers_Chris

It is getting ridiculous, but Rogers is being no help at all! I wonder if they even care!


Ree

join:2007-04-29
h0h0h0
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

1 recommendation

said by Hooter:

It is getting ridiculous, but Rogers is being no help at all! I wonder if they even care!

Maybe there's a large number of people who own these boxes, and this is their way of getting them to buy a new box...sure dslreports users might know how to replace the HD on the cheap, but I'll bet the majority of users don't, so they'll shell out another $500 to replace the whole thing.

(I don't really believe this is true, although at the same time it wouldn't surprise me at all if it was!)


sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13

1 recommendation

Using Occam's razor a little here ... "Don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by pure incompetence"


Rogers_Chris
VIP
join:2010-12-15
Toronto, ON
reply to tinytommy

We're working with our vendor on a solution. We'll have more information to share as it becomes available.



sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
reply to pmd

I think you'll find the lack of confidence Rogers_Chris, is because it took many months to sort out the last time, and then bam, it's like deja vu all over again.



elitefx

join:2011-02-14
London, ON
kudos:2

Why don't folks just return these things to Rogers? 100 thousand people saying "We don't want it, it doesn't function properly" would send a serious message that customer's demand quality hardware for their dollars spent.

This dancing with Rogers is just a big waste of time.........



tinytommy

@bell.ca

Hard to return a PVR I bought six years ago... I think most of us own our boxes or have modified them to the point where the warranty no longer covers them.



elitefx

join:2011-02-14
London, ON
kudos:2

1 edit

said by tinytommy :

Hard to return a PVR I bought six years ago...

I hear ya. 6 years old though. That's ancient in tech terms. Could be half the problem. Me, I'd be trashing the thing and getting a 2011-2012 model. I have 3 year old high end rig parts nobody wants. 6 years in this biz is..........I can't even imagine the manufacturer worrying about patching firmware for something that old. Time marches on........


sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
reply to elitefx

elitefx ... you know how it goes ... it will cost money to downgrade the service then upgrade again ... and it will be too much of a hassle for people to visit the Rogers store.


puzz1ed

join:2005-02-20
Markham, ON
reply to elitefx

I've had mine for 8 years. What's most surprising to me is that in all that time the current models are essentially the same with maybe a larger hard drive and still way overpriced for what they are. They never even bothered to incorporate more modern encoding to increase storage. Rogers or Cisco is making a ton of money on these things.

I'm thinking of getting a 32" HDTV for $300 and to get an HD box or PVR would cost as much or even more than the TV.



LFoot

@rogers.com
reply to elitefx

elitefx... I have a 2011 model rental PVR along with my 5 year old purchased unit both running different versions of the SARA firmware. The newer PVR also suffers from the drive cycling off and on every few minutes with a couple of differences. The drive in the 2011 unit is much quieter making the cycling almost un-noticeable and since it's a rental, I don't care if the drive fails prematurely.



elitefx

join:2011-02-14
London, ON
kudos:2

Has anyone ever actually had a drive fail because of the cycling? I know drives are supposed to be good for 50,000 power cycles and I also know newer drives park the recording heads and spin down when not in use even though they are still under power.

My main rig does the same thing in AHCI mode. My 2 internal Seagate 1TB storage drives hibernate when not in use. When I access them I hear the "click click" of the heads unlocking and the drives spinning up. Of course my main Mushkin Chronos SSD system drive is dead silent and always operational.

Point being, this could be the nature of the beast when using disk drives these days and have little to do with the actual PVR design or firmware itself...........IMHO Any drive failure could be attributed to a drive not performing to manufacturer design specs.

I've had to RMA 4 Hard Drives in the past 5-7 years both Seagate and WD out of about 15 drives purchased new.


LeadFoot

join:2012-09-21

In 2010 when this cycling first started we had 2 PVRs purchased at the same time. The one I was using, I kept running by setting wake-up timers and dummy recordings. The one my son was using was allowed to cycle on and off when powered off. After about 3 months of cycling the drive failed. I contacted Western Digital Engineering and they said that cycling the drive that frequently would likely shorten the drive's life. Using the 50,000 cycle number, if your PVR was powered off and cycling every 5 minutes for 16 hours a day, it would only take 261 day to reach 50,000 (12 cycles per hour X 16 hours per day X 261 days = 50,112 cycles). I think it's the high frequency not the total number of cycles that aggregates the problem. I blame Rogers/Cisco for the failure of my son's drive. At that time IDE drives were cheap and plentiful. That's not the case now.



elitefx

join:2011-02-14
London, ON
kudos:2

3 edits

said by LeadFoot:

At that time IDE drives were cheap and plentiful. That's not the case now.

For a device of this nature to be based on an obsolete IDE PATA Hard Drive platform is inexcusable. The hard drive capability is the very reason for the PVR's existence.

Taking the high PVR retail price factor into consideration, common sense says they would want the very latest SATA 3 technology incorporated into newer systems. SATA 2 at the very least for older units...........I mean, recording/data writing speed alone would be a prerequisite factor in capturing the higher framerates of HD video...........

decx
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Vancouver, BC
reply to pmd


It's not a system dealing with raw uncompressed HD or a highly used server serving numerous streams to many users. The 8300 just records a maximum of 2 compressed streams and doesn't even have WHPVR capability an old slow PATA drive has far more than enough read/write performance for the job.



sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13

anyway, you can always pick up a $10 sata/pata convertor.


decx
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Vancouver, BC

True but I'm not sure whether it'll fit inside the 8300 so I can't recommend that as a solution.


LeadFoot

join:2012-09-21

1 edit
reply to pmd

The answer is for Rogers/Cisco to fix the SARA firmware and stop shutting off the hard drive. Other makes of PVRs like Motorola keep the drive spinning 24/7 as does the Cisco 8642 with the newest firmware. It's been decades since I've done any programing, but it could be as simple as a 1 bit change in the code. They need to find the routine that's turning the drive off and change it. This is not rocket science.


Warhorse

join:2007-09-25
Orleans, ON
reply to pmd

This has definitely gone on long enough!!! As an engineer, I sincerely wonder if Rogers has anyone in their Tech Dept. who has the foggiest notion on how upgrades/firmware changes should be made so that the customer is kept in the loop and for the minimum period of disruption!

From my engineering experience (38 years), what should occur is an in-house test period of sufficient depth to proof the firmware upgrade. Then there should be a BETA trial on a sufficient number of volunteers to ensure everything is working OK. Finally, all customers should be advised what is to be done, and a feedback link provided if the customer has problems to report.

As this is the second time this problem has occurred, it seems Rogers has not learned from the experience and customers are still being treated with total disrespect!!! Customers pay for service and many purchased the PVR.

I sincerely feel a class action suit should be initiated ASAP! Maybe that would wake up "the powers that be but don't care" when their money is involved!!!



sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·TekSavvy Cable

Rogers treat customers as Revenue Units ... The fact that Rogers is supposed to provide service is a fact that they conveniently overlook to maximize revenue.

Sadly, that's the way with most Corporations. Maximizing the remuneration for the officers of the company and maximizing shareholder return is what it's all about. It's the modern corporate morality (immorality) after all, officers and boards of corporations get tossed on their ears if they don't maximize returns. It's fiduciary responsibility by being morally irresponsible. Strangely socially and morally responsible companies can generate fiduciary responsibility. The reverse is not necessarily true, although fiduciary success can allow a company to show social responsibility.



HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21

With SSD's being cheap now, I wonder if a SATA SSD would work with a SATA/IDE converter? It'd be silent, and use less power no matter what Rogers did with their firmware...


decx
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Vancouver, BC
reply to pmd

I'm not sure this would be a good application of SSDs. When the the STB is on the PVR is constantly buffering stream from the channel on which it is tuned this would put excessive write/erase cycles on the SSD. And while it would be silent and save some power, the STB wouldn't benefit from any performance gain switching to SSD.



avernar

join:2002-05-23
Mississauga, ON
reply to Warhorse

I wish the CRCT had the intestinal fortitude to mandate CableCard. Ah well. Back to reality. Sigh.


Hooter

join:2009-08-17
Scarborough, ON
reply to pmd

Both of our boxes rebooted over night. Another new SARA version was pushed out - 1.93.15.1. Too early to tell if it provides fixes for the last update - but just thought I would provide a heads up this morning!



HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·TekSavvy Cable

said by Hooter:

Both of our boxes rebooted over night. Another new SARA version was pushed out - 1.93.15.1. Too early to tell if it provides fixes for the last update - but just thought I would provide a heads up this morning!

Seems my 8300HD rebooted overnight too, it was on Channel 01.

I'll check the firmware when I get home. I'm also in Scarborough.
--