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fan13027

join:2008-10-26
Winnipeg, MB
Reviews:
·Shaw

1 recommendation

reply to caffeinator

Re: Can U.S. Citizen Shoot Down Domestic Spy Drones?

said by caffeinator:

The U.S.A. hasn't been a Democracy in a long time...if it ever was.

Hmmmm, up here in Canada I was always taught in school that the USA was a Republic not a Democracy.

Your pledge of allegiance ...

"I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands ..."

Just sayin


rcdailey
Dragoonfly
Premium
join:2005-03-29
Rialto, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable

Replace "my flag" with "the flag of the United States of America" and you will have it right so far as it goes. It is a republic, not a democracy. I challenge anyone to name a true democracy among nations. All seem to have representative governments of some sort, at least the legislative part.
--
It is easier for a camel to put on a bikini than an old man to thread a needle.



KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
reply to FF4m3

Sure. If you want to be charged with Terrorism and destruction of Government property and various other charges... and then arrested and imprisoned or maybe just disappeared (terrorism laws, after all.)
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini



KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
reply to DownTheShore

said by DownTheShore:

It might turn into a question of air rights - who owns the air rights above your property, and how far up (or down) does it go?

I can already answer that. You have no rights above your actual property in terms of flying objects passing over.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
reply to FF4m3

the drones do fly pretty high so I doubt most americans have good enough aim to hit it with weapons they commonly have.

That said if some operator is dumb enough to fly really low over some guy's farm house thinking hes funny(say 100ft), I think the farmer has every right to load up 00 Buck and shoot it down.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports



FF4m3

@bhn.net
reply to fan13027

said by fan13027:

said by caffeinator:

The U.S.A. hasn't been a Democracy in a long time...if it ever was.

Hmmmm, up here in Canada I was always taught in school that the USA was a Republic not a Democracy.

Correct.

This is more accurate:
"The United States of America is the self-professed greatest democracy in the world."

A republic is a form of government in which the country is considered a "public matter" (Latin: res publica), not the private concern or property of the rulers, and where offices of states are subsequently directly or indirectly elected or appointed rather than inherited. In modern times, a common simplified definition of a republic is a government where the head of state is not a monarch.

Both modern and ancient republics vary widely in their ideology and composition.

Most often a republic is a sovereign state, but there are also subnational entities that are referred to as republics, or which have governments that are described as "republican" in nature. For instance, Article IV of the Constitution of the United States "guarantee[s] to every State in this Union a Republican form of Government". The subdivisions of the Soviet Union were described as republics and two of them – Ukrainian SSR and Byelorussian SSR – had their own seats at the United Nations. While the Constitution of the Soviet Union described that union as a "unitary, federal and multinational state", it was in reality a unitary state as each Soviet Socialist Republic was dominated by the Communist Party.

Today the term republic still most commonly means a system of government which derives its power from the people rather than from another basis, such as heredity or divine right.

In liberal democracies presidents are elected, either directly by the people or indirectly by a parliament or council. Typically in presidential and semi-presidential systems the president is directly elected by the people, or is indirectly elected as done in the United States. In that country the president is officially elected by an electoral college, chosen by the States, all of which do so by direct election of the electors. The indirect election of the president through the electoral college conforms to the concept of republic as one with a system of indirect election. In the opinion of some, direct election confers legitimacy upon the president and gives the office much of its political power. However, this concept of legitimacy differs from that expressed in the United States Constitution which established the legitimacy of the United States president as resulting from the signing of the Constitution by 9 states.

A distinct set of definitions for the word republic evolved in the United States. In common parlance a republic is a state that does not practice direct democracy but rather has a government indirectly controlled by the people.

However, the term republic is not synonymous with the republican form. The republican form is defined as one in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whom those powers are specially delegated.

Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives. Democracy allows people to participate equally—either directly or through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws. It encompasses social, economic and cultural conditions that enable the free and equal practice of political self-determination.

A democratic government contrasts to forms of government where power is either held by one, as in a monarchy, or where power is held by a small number of individuals, as in an oligarchy or aristocracy.

In the United States, no mechanisms of direct democracy exists at the federal level, but over half of the states (and many localities) provide for citizen-sponsored ballot initiatives (also called "ballot measures", "ballot questions" or "propositions"), and the vast majority of states allow for referendums.

The Founding Fathers of the United States rarely praised and often criticized democracy, which in their time tended to specifically mean direct democracy, often without the protection of a Constitution enshrining basic rights; James Madison argued, especially in The Federalist No. 10, that what distinguished a democracy from a republic was that the former became weaker as it got larger and suffered more violently from the effects of faction, whereas a republic could get stronger as it got larger and combats faction by its very structure.

What was critical to American values, John Adams insisted, was that the government be "bound by fixed laws, which the people have a voice in making, and a right to defend." As Benjamin Franklin was exiting after writing the U.S. constitution, a woman asked him "Well, Doctor, what have we got—a republic or a monarchy?". He replied "A republic—if you can keep it."

From the U.S. Dept. of State:
Democracy:

Democracy and respect for human rights have long been central components of U.S. foreign policy. Supporting democracy not only promotes such fundamental American values as religious freedom and worker rights, but also helps create a more secure, stable, and prosperous global arena in which the United States can advance its national interests.



FF4m3

@bhn.net
reply to Kearnstd

said by Kearnstd:

the drones do fly pretty high so I doubt most americans have good enough aim to hit it with weapons they commonly have.

Evidently you have not read all the previous posts.


Ike1

join:2012-06-02
Newark, NJ
reply to FF4m3

Note that drones have already been used in domestic law enforcement:
»articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/10···20111211



DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to FF4m3

Your Homeland Security is already using Preadator drones for border surveillance.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.



Insight6

join:2012-08-25
reply to fan13027

Officially and legally the United States is a Federal constitutional based Republic. It operates and is colloquially or socially/legally viewed as a republic with strong democratic principles.

It is colloquially or socially commonly referred to as a democracy.



Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to KodiacZiller

said by KodiacZiller:

The difference would be twofold:

1) Commercial airliners are not spy planes.

How do you know what is a spy plane or not a spy plane?

said by KodiacZiller:

2) Commercial airliners have human beings aboard who would be killed. Drones do not.

So use a cheap old Cessna 172 to spy on people as it can't be shot down because there is a human bio life form aboard?

Government spy drones really don't concern me (old in the box thinking meh), but my own spy drones, well they might not concern me either, but perhaps some other folks might be a tad concerned.

So as long as I keep it above a thousand feet I should be in that 'public' air space (unless of course its restricted air space for some reason, like there is something interesting to see there )

I would tend to agree that when outside expecting perfect privacy is an unreasonable expectation, however inside, they likely need a warrant to use evidence thus collected in court.

So what about using thermal imaging of houses to find drug labs and grow ops? They aren't trying to penetrate the walls, only find house which are radiating an unusual amount more then other houses?

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


Drunkula
Premium
join:2000-06-12
Denton, TX
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to FF4m3

We're I live its not even legal to fire an airgun within city limits. They might not take kindly to firearms being fired skyward.
--
There are 10 types of people that understand binary numbers. Those that do - and those that do not...



Blackbird
Built for Speed
Premium
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

said by Drunkula:

We're I live its not even legal to fire an airgun within city limits. They might not take kindly to firearms being fired skyward.

Maybe use a high-tech bottle rocket or potato gun?
--
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!" -- P.Henry, 1775


Drunkula
Premium
join:2000-06-12
Denton, TX
reply to FF4m3

Fireworks are illegal within city limits, too.

EDIT:
Not sure of the local ordinance on potato guns but I bet they are frowned upon as well.



AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
reply to FF4m3

Why shoot them down??

with the number of keywords present in this topic, shout out to the various TLA anal-ists

No one mentioned jamming the gps navigation and landing it in their back yard?
--
--Standard disclaimers apply.--



Blackbird
Built for Speed
Premium
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

said by AVD:

...No one mentioned jamming the gps navigation and landing it in their back yard?

Or in the backyard of that guy you really don't like, down the street... he'll be getting a LOT of "official" attention soon thereafter.
--
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!" -- P.Henry, 1775


EUS
Kill cancer
Premium
join:2002-09-10
canada
reply to FF4m3

Re: Can U.S. Citizen Shoot Down Domestic Spy Drones?

Considering it could target you from at least 7 miles away, how would you shoot it down?
--
~ Project Hope ~



AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1

said by EUS:

Considering it could target you from at least 7 miles away, how would you shoot it down?

the reality is so could a satellite in space.
--
--Standard disclaimers apply.--


jaynick
lit up
Premium
join:2001-02-06
Sterling Heights, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to caffeinator

said by caffeinator:

The U.S.A. hasn't been a Democracy in a long time...if it ever was.

It never was nor intended to be democracy by our founders. Our nation is a constitutional republic. Granted we have employed some democratic principles over time.

sk1939
Premium
join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·T-Mobile US
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Blackbird

Re: Why shoot them down??

said by Blackbird:

said by AVD:

...No one mentioned jamming the gps navigation and landing it in their back yard?

Or in the backyard of that guy you really don't like, down the street... he'll be getting a LOT of "official" attention soon thereafter.

This.


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
reply to jaynick

Re: Can U.S. Citizen Shoot Down Domestic Spy Drones?

said by jaynick:

said by caffeinator:

The U.S.A. hasn't been a Democracy in a long time...if it ever was.

It never was nor intended to be democracy by our founders. Our nation is a constitutional republic. Granted we have employed some democratic principles over time.

democratic republic
--
--Standard disclaimers apply.--

sk1939
Premium
join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·T-Mobile US
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

said by AVD:

said by jaynick:

said by caffeinator:

The U.S.A. hasn't been a Democracy in a long time...if it ever was.

It never was nor intended to be democracy by our founders. Our nation is a constitutional republic. Granted we have employed some democratic principles over time.

democratic republic

Wrong. The US is a constitutional/federal republic, as is:

Argentina, Austria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brazil, Comoros, Ethiopia, Germany, India, Iraq, Mexico, Micronesia, Nepal, Nigeria, Sudan, Pakistan, Russia, South Sudan, Switzerland, and Venezuela.

The only countries that have "Democratic Republic" in their description are anything but.


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to AVD

Re: Why shoot them down??

said by AVD:

with the number of keywords present in this topic, shout out to the various TLA anal-ists

No one mentioned jamming the gps navigation and landing it in their back yard?

Jamming GPS goes without saying. Of course that doesn't stop my spy drones as I said the government likes to think in the box, whereas some of us have a hard time finding the box, never mind getting into it.

I'm already on a number of 'lists' but I've asked them to add you to them as well, so when are we planning to overthrow the government? (that should about do it).

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


jaa
Premium
join:2000-06-13
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Vonage
·Optimum Online
reply to FF4m3

Re: Can U.S. Citizen Shoot Down Domestic Spy Drones?

Only during deer season, except if you use a bow - then you can do it anytime. Best to avoid shooting the arrow straight up in the air though.
--
NOTHING justifies terrorism. We don't negotiate with terrorists. Those that support terrorists are terrorists.

Expand your moderator at work


disconnected

@snet.net
reply to THZNDUP

Re: Can U.S. Citizen Shoot Down Domestic Spy Drones?

Two words:

C02 LASER.

No falling ammo.



AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1

said by disconnected :

Two words:

C02 LASER.

No falling ammo.

you think Saddam didn't think of this?
--
--Standard disclaimers apply.--


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
reply to FF4m3

lets step back for a second.

from time to time, we see postings of police cars parking in private driveways to observe compliance with traffic laws on the public highway. No reasonable person thinks itis legal, or morally justified, to vandalize the police car or endanger the officer. The proper action is to document the trespass, and inform the higher authorities; escalating the issue until the homeowner achieves satisfaction.

I would think that unauthorized intrusions by spy drones fall into the same category, notify the FAA and follow through.
--
--Standard disclaimers apply.--



KodiacZiller
Premium
join:2008-09-04
73368
kudos:2

said by AVD:

lets step back for a second.

from time to time, we see postings of police cars parking in private driveways to observe compliance with traffic laws on the public highway. No reasonable person thinks itis legal, or morally justified, to vandalize the police car or endanger the officer. The proper action is to document the trespass, and inform the higher authorities; escalating the issue until the homeowner achieves satisfaction.

I would think that unauthorized intrusions by spy drones fall into the same category, notify the FAA and follow through.

Not the same at all. A cop in a driveway has a view of maybe a couple hundred feet. A drone can spy on you from miles away -- see in your backyard, etc. If fitted with thermal imaging, it can see you walking around inside your home. A big difference.

Cops do not need this technology. It is nothing but a power grab and a militarization of our police forces. This is something the founders wanted to avoid at all costs.
--
Getting people to stop using windows is more or less the same as trying to get people to stop smoking tobacco products. They dont want to change; they are happy with slowly dying inside. -- munky99999


Blackbird
Built for Speed
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join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
reply to FF4m3

Well, something to consider in all this is that a drone does not have to overfly your property boundaries to gather its information. In fact, much of the best intel data is collected at a slight offset angle so that all three dimensions of objects can be clearly discerned from altitude. That, in many/most situations, will place the drone over somebody else's property. So even if one had the right to "defend" one's airspace by splashing a drone, that does not extend to aggressively "defending" somebody else's.

Constitutional issues aside (and I believe there are some, though they may be murky), as I noted earlier, shooting down or crippling a governmental drone would be an... uhmm... 'extremely unwise' act, simply for the incredible amount of grief it would buy the shooter. "Living Hell" only barely describes what he would consequently experience after he violently confronted the world's largest bureacracy/military... something that needs to be kept soberly in mind. A 'patriot' might come to believe this would be something he needed to do - but he certainly should count the personal and collateral costs, which would be enormous. Assuming he was even "in the right"...
--
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!" -- P.Henry, 1775