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Blackbird
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reply to ashrc4

Re: Australia won't back away from data retention plan

said by ashrc4:

said by norwegian:

said by StuartMW:

ASIO would also be given the power to install, delete and manipulate software on people's computers without their knowledge, according to the provisions laid out in the proposal, putting an ethical question mark over the legitimacy of evidence gathering when it comes to prosecuting suspects.

That point currently, does not carry as much weight here as it does for US citizens.
The size and ability to affect more than a hand full of people at one time on the scale of misuse at any given time from ASIO would be far from the notion that some of these powers being allowed in the US. ...
said by norwegian:

Storing info to save police force expense is not regulating, well it is if you are a militia I guess, this is meant to be the free world, is it not?

... To think that ASIO is concerned with the general public that use the internet and therefore all must be scrutinized within an inch of there freedom's and then make out some/any are going to be set-up for whatever reason in this instance is pushing it a bit.
There is no secret malitia that i know of that is combing through peoples search history looking to affect change other than private enterprise.

Not being a citizen of Oz, I have no pony in their races. But it ought to be noted by the folks who are citizens there that data squirreled away by ASIO has two elements that need to be considered as possible risks: first, it may ultimately be made public as it passes into Australian National Archives. Second, and more important, ASIO has been accused of bias and agenda-based manipulation in the past regarding how information is used (abused?) and selectively released. Regardless of whether one is left or right in their orientation, it becomes dangerous (as I noted earlier, profoundly dangerous) when an arm of the government is given power to manipulate data on a person's computer while that same government has the power to prosecute a person for what is on their system. If an agency has demonstrated past willingness to follow a political agenda with its data troves and practices, what makes anyone believe it will not also manipulate data on "opponents' " systems for those same political agendas? Regardless of who is in power (left or right), the laws and precedents will already be in place for the other side to abuse once they come to power... and this is the stuff oppression is made of.

From Australian National Archives: Personal information in ASIO records – Fact sheet 53:
quote:
... Most ASIO records held by the Archives relate to the investigation and surveillance of individuals, groups and organisations. ... These records, like most other Commonwealth records, are eligible for public release under the Archives Act 1983.
...
Because ASIO records are exempt from the Freedom of Information Act, subjects of ASIO records, unlike subjects of most other Commonwealth agency records, are unable to request that information which is recorded about them on ASIO records be changed if it is incomplete, incorrect, out of date or misleading. ... The subject of an ASIO file may, if he or she wishes, provide the Archives with a written statement identifying information contained in the file that is believed to be inaccurate.
...
From Australian Security Intelligence Organisation:
quote:
... ASIO has been accused of executing an agenda against the Left of politics since its inception. In the 1960s, ASIO was also accused of neglecting its proper duties because of this supposed preoccupation with targeting the Left. Like other Western domestic security agencies, ASIO actively monitored protesters against the Vietnam War, Labor politicians and various writers, artists and actors who tended towards the Left. Other claims go further, alleging that the Organisation compiled a list of some 10,000 suspected Communist sympathisers who would be interned should the Cold War escalate.
...
--
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!" -- P.Henry, 1775


ashrc4
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australia
I would love to look at my archive.....especially if it were accurate.
I'd be more interested in it, if it could be used enmasse to do things like intern people these days.
Oh wait Asylum seekers, Muslims of interest.
The problem with this approach is that once they initiate such a proposal (intern) they also have to live with the consequence of doing just that.
Today ASIO plays a secondary role in investigating (clearing mainly) Asylum Seekers and most that don't pass are only detained until alternative arrangements can be made.
That political landscape has long since changed.
In some countries and sphere's the radicalization of some Muslim groups has well and truely taken the main focus.

Yet no allegations of doing anything other than gathering intelligence and archiving it seems to be worth mention at this time. Allowing, should protocol be followed, warrants/search orders etc. to look at a persons search history seems reasonable IMHO.

said by Blackbird:

left or right in their orientation, it becomes dangerous (as I noted earlier, profoundly dangerous) when an arm of the government is given power to manipulate data on a person's computer while that same government has the power to prosecute a person for what is on their system.

ASIO would also be given the power to install, delete and manipulate software on people's computers without their knowledge

Just to clarify are we not seeing the word "software".

I know this is not a draft from the legislation but to manipulate the content of someone's documentation or images would fall outside of this.
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norwegian
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said by ashrc4:

Just to clarify are we not seeing the word "software".

I know this is not a draft from the legislation but to manipulate the content of someone's documentation or images would fall outside of this.

I haven't read all of the document, but page 48 of the document at the getup.org link suggests they didn't have permissions but would be happy for it to change. "Authority for acts necessary to execute a computer access warrant"
About allowing previously prohibited actions, how much are they expecting?
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



Blackbird
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reply to ashrc4
said by ashrc4:

... Just to clarify are we not seeing the word "software".

I know this is not a draft from the legislation but to manipulate the content of someone's documentation or images would fall outside of this.

From the GetUp! text of the document (Discussion Paper)...

Page 10, section 11, para c:
quote:
Enable the disruption of a target computer for the purpose of a computer access warrant
Page 11, Section 17, para a:
quote:
Using third party computers and communications in transit to access a target computer under a computer access warrant
Page 48, Section 3.2, second and third paragraphs on page:
quote:
Subsection 25A(5) currently restricts ASIO from doing anything under a computer access warrant that adds, deletes or alters data or interferes with, interrupts, or obstructs the lawful use of the target computer by other persons. This prohibition operates regardless of how minor or inconsequential the interference, interruption, or obstruction may be.

To address this, section 25A could be amended so that the prohibition does not apply to activity proportionate to what is necessary to execute the warrant.
page 50, Section "Use of third party computers...", third para:
quote:
... it may be appropriate to amend the ASIO Act to enable a third party computer or communication in transit to be used by ASIO to lawfully access a target computer.
I suppose one could argue that this all only applies to legally forcing the turnover of encryption keys and the interception of data flow to/from the computer of an alleged criminal computer. But it seems to me that terms such as "disruption of a target computer", "using third party computers... to access a target computer", and lifting the prohibition against ASIO of action that "adds, deletes or alters data... of a target computer" all sound like the target computer and its software/data will be allowed to be remotely "messed with" by ASIO. This, coupled with the accusations over the years about ASIO's political agendas, are what I believe raise the concern about the thrust of the discussion paper.

Obviously, a great deal depends on the independence and judicial integrity of the warrant process, and how effectively it is policed. Perhaps that's no problem in Australia, but I'd not bet that way...
--
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!" -- P.Henry, 1775


norwegian
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reply to Blackbird
quote:
The subject of an ASIO file may, if he or she wishes, provide the Archives with a written statement identifying information contained in the file that is believed to be inaccurate.
I believe even police records are held in the same way. After a certain time you can request by a paid document to un-list events from affecting future record requests / clearances, but the facts never go away and if the case is serious enough it still has strength in today's world or the future.

quote:
Other claims go further, alleging that the Organisation compiled a list of some 10,000 suspected Communist sympathisers who would be interned should the Cold War escalate.
There was always a communist risk that was discussed even at public speaking levels; even including missing prime-ministers. That is not new, but it seems the events were enough to make everyone watch their back and I gather to some extent those insecurities have or had caused shifts in ways forward, ultimate control will always feel safest, but without mistakes and wrongs, how do you grow in character. Bit like that movie "Demolition Man".
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke