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Name Game
Premium
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7

1 recommendation

reply to StuartMW

Re: No Facebook at work? I'll look elsewhere...

To clear up some confusion...there are many businesses who use facebook and have a business page. This is not a personal page and they will soon be charge under a new model.

»wcni.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/fa···profile/

»www.latimes.com/business/technol···56.story

That is not an uncommon event even for the "older folks"..we called it networking even before there was a facebook. I also know two people who got jobs because of a facebook account.
--
Gladiator Security Forum
»www.gladiator-antivirus.com/


scelli
Native New Yorker
Premium
join:1999-08-07
FLOT/FEBA
kudos:1
reply to The Limit

said by The Limit:

I don't care what word you used, it's not true. I don't see sources, citations, no proof. What I see is an opinion that ignorant "elders" like to pass off on the younger generation when in fact, we have it much harder than they ever did.

What I see is an opinion that ignorant "elders" like to pass off on the younger generation when in fact, we have it much harder than they ever did.

Congratulations! In my mind at least, you've managed to completely negate some fairly decent defenses of your position in this thread with the little ditty above.

Since you seem to demand sources, citations and proof, then I also demand the same: Just what empirical evidence in your possession would possibly justify one of the more patently offensive and downright ridiculous statements foisted upon these boards in quite a while?
--
The maximum effective range of an excuse is ZERO meters!


rcdailey
Dragoonfly
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join:2005-03-29
Rialto, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
reply to dave

I have a Facebook account, but I go there very infrequently. OTOH, I go to this site on a daily basis, mostly for useful information, but I also make comments, which probably is a waste of time. I certainly have seen employees using company equipment during lunch hours, but that is approved by the owner of the business.
--
It is easier for a camel to put on a bikini than an old man to thread a needle.



scelli
Native New Yorker
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FLOT/FEBA
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reply to goalieskates

said by goalieskates:

said by The Limit:

What I see is an opinion that ignorant "elders" like to pass off on the younger generation when in fact, we have it much harder than they ever did.

Enough with the pity party.

You do not have it harder than your elders, your expectations are different. You never worked in a coal mine at age 6, or starved through the depression, or worked on a farm. Working through lunch and breaks has gone on for years.

The difference is your elders were raised from the beginning with the idea they would have to work, not doted on in schools. They were prepared, our young ones weren't. So let's not get carried away here, and welcome to the real world.

He's also obviously never fought in a world war that nearly decimated half the planet, built a bomb shelter, been denied equal rights because of Jim Crow laws, gotten drafted, lived through numerous assassinations...and on and on and on.
--
The maximum effective range of an excuse is ZERO meters!


rcdailey
Dragoonfly
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·Time Warner Cable

1 recommendation

reply to Name Game

I am pretty sure that if they made businesses pay for all of the tools at Facebook, many of those businesses would just drop their accounts. If they simply add a charge for services that provide more advertising punch than the free tools, then they will get some more revenue. Facebook has to prove that this is cost effective advertising, of course.
--
It is easier for a camel to put on a bikini than an old man to thread a needle.


dave
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not in ohio
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Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

reply to goalieskates

said by goalieskates:

You do not have it harder than your elders, your expectations are different. You never worked in a coal mine at age 6, or starved through the depression, or worked on a farm. Working through lunch and breaks has gone on for years.

... or had to write software with only zeroes, because you couldn't afford the ones.

Gimme a break. We're talking about whether people applying for office jobs (which was implicit in the original article) expect to have access to a web site blocked.

Yeah, you're right, some of us have had a relatively safe life, but this is not the exclusive domain of the young (I'm old enough that the AARP have started sending me snail-main), and the walk-uphill-both-directions-in-the-snow rant can't be taken seriously, even if our young friend was exaggerating a little about how hard he had it. He's probably spot-on in that competition for advancement is stiffer, though.

Sukunai
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reply to dave

said by dave:

said by Sukunai:

Which is why it is nice to get those sort of yuppies forms of employment.

A little class warfare going on here?

Re: phones. The average office employer has a simple choice:

- let me make a personal phone call on company time, cost to productivity, 5 mins.

- require me to make a phone call on my own time, I'll leave the office on the dot after 8 hours, or else take a full lunch hour; cost to productivity unclear, could be from half-an-hour up.

That is, it's not a case of someone wanting to give me a free ride, it's a case of someone wanting me in the office for as many hours as possible. Letting me make necessary personal phone calls increases the company's bottom line.

You seem to be of the opinion that if I can use a phone at all, I will automatically be yakking on it all the time. That's a little insulting, doncha think?

(FWIW, I'm also working while typing this. That's how it is with computers.)

I can't seem to walk down the street without having a dozen people inside of ten blocks nearly walk into me because they are walking looking at a screen and madly pushing buttons. I actually DO think some of society actually CAN'T put the things down.

I've had situations where some people actually get annoyed that I won't run to the phone just because it rings. I find it amusing to see people aghast that a ringing phone can be ignored. No I don't feel a need to use every second of my day not doing something else, on a phone.

I call just about everyone under 30 a potential yuppie. Especially if they a laptop and definitely if they have a tablet.

I wasn't aiming to be a 'little insulting' actually, I am never a 'little' anything

I think cell phone users are more addicted than chain smokers. At least they have come to finally realise there are places we don't want them

I have a friend, who has told me the consequences of not being available for unpaid bonus efforts at the office. They get let go first when the office needs to downsize. As such, he has remained employed often when almost everyone was let go. I suppose it just depends on your desire to remain employed.

Sure leave precisely on the dot, you are not obligated to stay unpaid. The boss is also not required to pick you to remain when 5 out of 7 people have to be laid off either.

Another friend of mine, he can routinely do the work of 3 people. As such, he's considered a keeper. In fact, they tend to let people go if they can't look worth the saving.

The only real way to safeguard a job, is to be considered valuable.

Because even though only a pampered spoiled brat actually would state that life is harder today than even say only as far back as my own young adult years, the facts are, there is simply merely more people fighting for your spot on the pay roll.
That doesn't = harder life, that = good reason to pick the right college course or learn to be self employed.

I'd rather be dealing with a climate change conditioned future, than a nuclear wasteland. I was completely stressed out for my entire 20s thanks to the Soviet Union. Job stress, phah, get real.


The Limit
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Greensboro, NC
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reply to goalieskates

How about I was raised on a farm? I know what hard work is? You have no idea what my life has been like, and I didn't start the generalizations, let's bring this full circle shall we?

It was stated that "many" grad students are lazy and unemployed or underemployed. I have a right to make my defense. The generalization had absolutely nothing to do with the article in question.

There is no pity party, because that implies that I complain about the work I do, when in fact I am here because I want to be here. What I DON'T like is when people start generalizing large groups of people, which in retrospect, I did out of anger which isn't justified so I own up to that conclusion.

However, in light of what I said, I think it's fair to stand up for my generation rather than watch the previous generation demonize this one. Sure, we haven't had to work in a coal mine, or walk miles and miles to get to school. Let me ask you this: do you think we would still do it if we had to? I have a feeling that we would, hell, I would if I had to. I would get used to it eventually.

The whole purpose that I even posted here in the first place was because I feel like Facebook gets way more hate than it needs to, and that it's "popular" to hate on them because people are unproductive BECAUSE of facebook. That is not true, and I think it's sad now that we have individuals who cannot muster up the self discipline to work rather than play.

And then the implication of "lazy grad" students came into play, which I was not going to allow go unchallenged, because I am obligated to speak up. It's a public forum, and even though the topic was "possibly" in the bounds of the OP, it shouldn't have been said at all. It contributed nothing to the discussion, and made sweeping gestures over a large population of individuals.

So before you go demonizing my post, realize the context of my post.

I am sure that if I lived back then, I would have conformed with the times.
--
"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010)



The Limit
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Greensboro, NC
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·Windstream
reply to scelli

...Which is really not fair to compare me to as I wasn't even born then. In the context of the post, which is jobs, and your topics (which have nothing to do with the context of the post), I was referring to the fact that it's damn near impossible for some of us to get jobs out of college no matter how hard we work. Read the stats for yourself.

But humor me for a minute, if I were alive then, I wouldn't know what I would have been like then. I wouldn't be the person that I am now, that's for sure. I can, however, state that if I was raised then like I have been raised in this generation, I would be fine.
--
"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010)


Sukunai
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reply to StuartMW

I for the record like Facebook, and have zero interest in even caring about privacy.

I make it known, don't friend me if you don't want the everyone to know anything about them that will in effect get exposed to the whole of the net just by connecting with me.

I WANT the entire planet to see my comments. All of them. I wouldn't be online if I was paranoid.

But I tend to use Facebook in the morning when I am just getting up to speed. Then I might check it if I am relaxing from doing something else. But considering I live a retired senior citizens existence there is nothing to stop me.

Now if I could be all day at the shop, that would be so much better.
And the computer would be at home not the shop, and the only communications tool in the shop, would be the phone. An ordinary business phone. No special functions, just a phone you answer when someone calls the business.

All my electronics would be at home.
And I'd expect all my employees to be observing the same level of dedication to the work day as myself.



The Limit
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Greensboro, NC
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Reviews:
·Windstream

Hey I totally agree, if I worked in a trade shop, I wouldn't be hoisting my electronics anywhere and I would observe the same standard. I would also expect everyone else to follow this standard, because those individuals are at work to work, not to play. At the same time, if they want to check facebook on their break, or browse the web, then that's their prerogative. As long as they aren't browsing the web while they should be productive, then hey, all is fair to me.

If all the work is completed for that day, then I would let them take the day off early. I mean, if they are full time, then I have already planned to pay the employee a full time wage, so why should they be hanging around when the work is completed for that day? I mean, that's just my opinion, and I don't expect anyone else to think that way.
--
"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010)



scelli
Native New Yorker
Premium
join:1999-08-07
FLOT/FEBA
kudos:1

2 recommendations

reply to The Limit

said by The Limit:

...Which is really not fair to compare me to as I wasn't even born then. In the context of the post, which is jobs, and your topics (which have nothing to do with the context of the post), I was referring to the fact that it's damn near impossible for some of us to get jobs out of college no matter how hard we work. Read the stats for yourself.

But humor me for a minute, if I were alive then, I wouldn't know what I would have been like then. I wouldn't be the person that I am now, that's for sure. I can, however, state that if I was raised now like I was then, I would be fine.

If you are stating I (and apparently some others as well) took your remarks out of context, than I'm willing to take you at your word.

However: Please don't tell me what is fair and what's not fair, because that is exactly the reason why a number of us took umbrage to your remarks. Life isn't always fair or particularly very nice for that matter, as you're sure to learn along the way throughout the upcoming years. It's how a person handles such adversity which separates the wheat from the chaff...and always has, too.
--
The maximum effective range of an excuse is ZERO meters!

Sukunai
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reply to StuartMW

So many of today's college grads are sadly also products of a butchered approach to education (not their fault though).

But still, a lot of today's youths, with 'higher education' can barely hold their own in a conversation with me.

And too many have gone to college and gotten entirely stupid college degrees worth nothing in the real working world.

Told my son the other day, of all the shop classes at high school the best one was the boring one, welding. Welders get paid well. Any doofus can do construction though.

A college course in RUNNING a business will do more for you than a lot of course that seemed 'neat' but have already been over done.

We don't need any more high techy graphics designer IT types.

My niece is getting work in social worker activities. No shortage of screwed up youths out there. I think she might get good use out of the course.

You need to have training someone actually wants, not just what you wanted to do. I always tell people, you don't need to like the job, you only need to like the money.
But too many times, people will turn down too many jobs that they simply don't want to do. And then people whine that foreigners are taking all the jobs. Well why not, no one wanted them. They bust their ass, live in big groups in small homes, and save like crazy, and then in a few years time, you end up asking THEM for a job at their store.

There's a lesson in there.


Sukunai
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reply to StuartMW

Life by the way has never been fair even once. You get lucky occasionally, but life, life doesn't give a damn about you.

Life sure didn't give a damn about me, when it turfed my dreams into the round file. But I at least was lucky enough to be crapped on by life in Canada.



The Limit
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Greensboro, NC
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Reviews:
·Windstream
reply to Sukunai

No I totally agree, that's why I'm getting a degree in something that is flexible and stretches my mind in using formal logic (Mathematics).

There are many uses for Mathematics in the IT industry (networking and coding). In fact, Mathematics has helped me write better programs because my logical skills have increased ten fold.

I know that I won't have a glamorous job coming out of college, that's understandable, and if all I had to choose from was working at convenience store making minimum wage then I'd take it. I don't complain about work, even if it's work that I don't necessarily like.

Mathematics is used in EVERY field, and it's not an easy degree to get. I didn't go to school with the notion that I would be guaranteed to get a job, I went with the notion that I would be guaranteed an education, and maybe a job if I work hard.

But you make good points, and they have been noted.
--
"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010)



rcdailey
Dragoonfly
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·Time Warner Cable
reply to The Limit

I grew up on a farm. When I was young, there was no TV and the phone had a crank on the side and the line was shared by several neighbors. I feel privileged to have witnessed the advance of technology to the point that in the area where I was born, everyone has cell phones and other more sophisticated technology. A cousin who owns a farm not far from my childhood home was a Microsoft employee and is retired now. He also grew up farming but became a software developer for an independent company that was bought out by MS. Needless to say, he has modernized the old farmhouse where he lives now to state of the art when it comes to energy efficiency and connectivity. OTOH, I have never checked to see whether he has a Facebook account.
--
It is easier for a camel to put on a bikini than an old man to thread a needle.



The Limit
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reply to scelli

I've noted it, and I should have stated explicitly what I was talking about in regards to the context. I do apologize to anyone that I offended that grew up in the generation before me. The context was supposed to be in the set of all "office" jobs.

And I agree, complaining about it does nothing to solve it. I just got my underwear in a knot because of a false statement that was made about college graduates.
--
"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010)



The Limit
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Greensboro, NC
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reply to scelli

And I don't think I said anything about fairness, most of my comments were in defense of my generation. Unless I missed something.



The Limit
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Greensboro, NC
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reply to rcdailey

Haha. That would be awesome to see!



rcdailey
Dragoonfly
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·Time Warner Cable

I broke down and tried a search for his name on Facebook, but do not see him. So, maybe he's smarter than me (he probably is)

I did find his address via a company listing, so he is not secret. I know it is him because I recognize the address.
--
It is easier for a camel to put on a bikini than an old man to thread a needle.



The Limit
Premium
join:2007-09-25
Greensboro, NC
kudos:2

I think there is a security measure in place where you can "hide" your name from random searches.



scelli
Native New Yorker
Premium
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FLOT/FEBA
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reply to The Limit

said by The Limit:

I've noted it, and I should have stated explicitly what I was talking about in regards to the context. I do apologize to anyone that I offended that grew up in the generation before me. The context was supposed to be in the set of all "office" jobs.

And I agree, complaining about it does nothing to solve it. I just got my underwear in a knot because of a false statement that was made about college graduates.

Unfortunately, the intended meaning of a statement on a message board such as this one can sometimes be incredibly misconstrued by readers. We all have done it and the past and am quite sure we all will inadvertently do it in the future.
--
The maximum effective range of an excuse is ZERO meters!


The Limit
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·Windstream

Ah yes, and ironically it's something I am learning when proving complex theorems. Everything must be explicitly stated, not assumed, and if something is assumed, it must be proven true unless otherwise stated as a definition.

Practice makes perfect. The more I post here, and the more I do proofs ironically, the more I will learn how to do this.
--
"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010)



scelli
Native New Yorker
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FLOT/FEBA
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reply to The Limit

said by The Limit:

And I don't think I said anything about fairness, most of my comments were in defense of my generation. Unless I missed something.

said by The Limit:

...Which is really not fair to compare me to as I wasn't even born then. In the context of the post, which is jobs, and your topics (which have nothing to do with the context of the post), I was referring to the fact that it's damn near impossible for some of us to get jobs out of college no matter how hard we work. Read the stats for yourself.
--
The maximum effective range of an excuse is ZERO meters!


The Limit
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1 recommendation

Yes, I see. I do think, in regards to the topics you presented, that it is a bit unfair to compare my life today vs the life of a generation ago. I didn't have the opportunity to do any of those things. Yes, I said opportunity, because those are opportunities. You said yourself that a person is molded from how he/she hold up in adversity.

So yes, I missed out, and I don't see those opportunities as necessarily bad ones. I know that it sounds like I can say that with ease, and I do not by any means. I feel like I would have been a better person in the end for those experiences.

But, it's really OT. There was a miscommunication issue on both ends. It's impossible to visualize some struggles unless one has actually lived through said struggle. So yes, I don't really think the comparison to me and my values are necessarily equivalent.
--
"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010)



Name Game
Premium
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7
reply to StuartMW

I did some research. for a commercial break.

The information the article refers to was in a white paper called "Tomorrow's Workforce" done by Hays and they surveyed more than 870 employers and job candidates. "The report looks at four issues affecting the future of Australia’s workforce: the advancement in technology, globalisation of the jobs market, diversity, and the rise of the “orange collar” worker."

"The survey results suggest employees now and in the future will expect to be allowed a reasonable level of access to social media for personal use."

Background:

Hays recruits for a wide range of industries and professions, including:
Mining, Procurement, IT, Human Resources, Construction & Property, Office Support, Accountancy & Finance etc

Specialties include:
Recruitment, Construction, Logistics, Manufacturing, Mining, Engineering, Resources, Energy, Oil and Gas, Information Technology, Executive Search and Selection

There is a new bred of workers out there called "orange collar" workers which is the focus of Hays today.This article explains the details and types of jobs.

“ORANGE COLLAR” WORKERS IN DEMAND
»www.quarrymagazine.com/Article.a···-demand-

This has prompted some very good article....

Start-ups urged to not overlook social media policies
»www.startupsmart.com.au/managing···619.html

»www.b2bmarketing.net/blog/posts/···ess-case

Hays has a facebook page...
»www.facebook.com/HaysAustralia

The article they posted on their facebook page is this one from The Australian Financial Review

Nick Deligiannis, managing director of Hays in Australia, urged employers to have clear policies in place, with more than half of the candidates saying they used company devices to access social media and a quarter saying they did not know how to represent their employer.

“It is important to have a social media policy covering how social media is used for work-related matters, the use of it for personal matters at work, and what employees can and cannot say about your organisation,” he said.

Fiona Inverarity, an employment partner at Truman Hoyle Lawyers, said employers should avoid banning social media at work “because as soon as you catch someone using it, you are going to have to discipline them and also everyone is using their own technology”, she said.

She urged employers to establish social media policies that banned staff making derogatory remarks about fellow employees or the company. She also recommended companies establish whether they or their employee owned connections on an employee’s Linked In profile and include this in the staff member’s employment contract.

»afr.com/p/national/cut_off_socia···OR4PD06H

The article StuartMW posted has Shane Little from Hays commenting on the white paper..
This is his background..

Since 2005 I have been a Regional Director with responsibility for mulitple business areas across NSW & ACT. Based in Sydney and with responsibility across 6 different offices I am responsible for the growth and budget delivery for a significant portion of the regional budget.

»au.linkedin.com/pub/shane-little/18/77b/172

This is what Hays suggests to get a job..
»www.hays.com.au/press-releases/H···aign=aus
--
Gladiator Security Forum
»www.gladiator-antivirus.com/


Name Game
Premium
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Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7

1 edit
reply to StuartMW

If you would like to read the white paper Tomorrow's Workforce" here it is

»www.hays.com.au/prd_consump/grou···5986.pdf

Look at page 16 !



Name Game
Premium
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Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7

1 edit
reply to StuartMW

Blogs Forums Facebook Twitter LinkedIn

The survey was not just about Facebook..it was really about Social Media. That was defined best in this part of the white paper.

Social media should be considered for its ability to connect
with potential recruits. According to our survey of employers,
organisations are slowly beginning to use such tools to
communicate their employee value proposition, although the
uptake is far from universal. Of those that are using such tools, it
is most common to use LinkedIn (68.2 per cent). In addition, 35.5
per cent are using Facebook, 23.4 per cent are using forums, 20.6
per cent are using blogs and 18.7 per cent are using Twitter.
According to a study by employer branding consultancy
Potentialpark, 58 per cent of young people expect employers to
be present on Facebook, and 52 per cent expect them to be on
LinkedIn. 73 per cent agree to the statement: ‘If I find content on
Facebook that can help me in my career, I am open for looking at
it’. More than a third (36 per cent) believe employers should be
present on Twitter


Our own survey of candidates found that when they look for a new
job, 69.3 per cent use LinkedIn, 26.8 per cent use forums, 16.7 per
cent use blogs, 15.9 per cent use Facebook and 4.1 per cent use
Twitter.

When looking for a new job, do you use any of the following?

Blogs Forums Facebook Twitter LinkedIn

According to our survey, 82.2 per cent of candidates use these
tools to find jobs of interest. 69.3 per cent use them to research
the organisation while 47.3 per cent use them to see what others
have to say about the organisation. 26.1 per cent use them to
promote their own skills and abilities, such as by blogging or via
Facebook.

We also asked candidates if they use social networks to remain in
contact with people for potential future job opportunities.

Almost half of our candidates said yes, with 7.5 per cent citing this as the
main reason they use social networks and 40.3 per cent indicating
it is one reason for their use of social networks.

--
Gladiator Security Forum
»www.gladiator-antivirus.com/


Exidor
Premium
join:2001-05-04
Brampton, ON
reply to rcdailey

said by rcdailey:

I am pretty sure that if they made businesses pay for all of the tools at Facebook, many of those businesses would just drop their accounts. If they simply add a charge for services that provide more advertising punch than the free tools, then they will get some more revenue. Facebook has to prove that this is cost effective advertising, of course.

Good call!

We may find out, one way of the other:

Facebook starts to charge for Offers, woos Wall Street

Social network will charge businesses for daily deals ads

quote:
Computerworld - Facebook plans to start charging businesses to run targeted ads in its Facebook Offers daily deals service.
»www.computerworld.com/s/article/···l_Street


Name Game
Premium
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Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7

Right here is more info on why they think the charges will be accepted.
»Re: No Facebook at work? I'll look elsewhere....