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Name Game
Premium
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7
reply to Juggernaut

Re: No Facebook at work? I'll look elsewhere...

said by Juggernaut:

said by Name Game:

Get an ipad and we will give you updates and briefs.

Jump from the cliff before you do that!

That also happens sometimes with trap street
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_street


The Limit
Premium
join:2007-09-25
Greensboro, NC
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Windstream
reply to ROCINANTE

Is that so? Lazy? Maybe unemployed, but lazy? I work harder than most people do in a REAL job. People with REAL jobs get BREAKS. People like me DO NOT. So piss off and take your generalizations elsewhere.

I like how many of you make the implication that having access to Facebook automatically makes you unproductive. That's the fallacy, and completely incorrect. What about reddit? Or any other X that makes someone unproductive.

If we really want to get down to the nitty gritty, how about a 15 minute lunch? How about no breaks? I'm sure some of you would bitch and moan about that. Sure, it breaks labor laws, but some of you are pathetic in your "bandwagon" hate for Facebook. It's not secure. I get that. I can see why an employer would block said site. But unproductivity? I guess it's just the new trend to hate Facebook.

Some of you need to get off your high horse and realize that not all of us are lazy, and we are DEFINITELY not beneath you. I don't care what you do for a living, we are the same and your career shouldn't become your identity. But no, we are all lazy ingrates who don't know how to make do for ourselves.
--
"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010)



Name Game
Premium
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7

Glad you got that off your chest.. On average, how many games did you have to simulate before reaching a pat flush?



vaxvms
ferroequine fan
Premium
join:2005-03-01
Wormtown
kudos:3
reply to Name Game

How do I get a job as a "researcher"?
--
i before e, except after c... weird?



StuartMW
Who Is John Galt?
Premium
join:2000-08-06
Galt's Gulch
kudos:2
reply to Name Game

said by Name Game:

too much facebook is for the birds

quote:
Compulsive Woodpecker: Can't resist reading email posts at all hours of the day and night.

That sounds strangely familiar...
--
Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!


StuartMW
Who Is John Galt?
Premium
join:2000-08-06
Galt's Gulch
kudos:2
reply to Name Game

said by Name Game:

Glad you got that off your chest..

Sounds to me like someone needs a break...
--
Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!


StuartMW
Who Is John Galt?
Premium
join:2000-08-06
Galt's Gulch
kudos:2
reply to vaxvms

said by vaxvms:

How do I get a job as a "researcher"?

You apply for a gummint grant then wait for that check for $10 million.
--
Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!

Sukunai
Premium
join:2008-05-07
kudos:1
Reviews:
·ELECTRONICBOX
·TekSavvy DSL

1 recommendation

reply to StuartMW

There sure is a lot of signs out there these days how truly little people truly wish to truly need to actually work, when ostensibly at work.

Anyone able to Facebook at work is either making too much money already and/or living in a society a bit too soft and thus is not sufficiently worried about being unemployed at all, or simply doesn't understand the meaning of the term 'work'.

Shit the only reason I am on the internet at all, is disability told me to piss off about my plans to be running a business.

Nothing personal guys, but I wish I had never met any of you I'd rather be covered in sawdust busy making money and being an employer, and of course, there wouldn't even be internet access on my factory floor. Your cell phones and whatever would be locked in your locker in the lunch room. You'd be busy making my company's furniture if you were an employee of mine that's for sure.


Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
reply to StuartMW

The rate employers are going today, You may not want to have a Facebook at all when you apply. Considering some now demand your social media logins(which actually giving would violate the TOS of most social sites).
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports



The Limit
Premium
join:2007-09-25
Greensboro, NC
kudos:2
reply to Name Game

Something like ~500 games. For two players, ~20,000 games. For 5? Yea. Lol



The Limit
Premium
join:2007-09-25
Greensboro, NC
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Windstream
reply to StuartMW

Having access to facebook != unproductivity.

Being lazy == unproductivity.

Lacking self discipline == unproductivity.

Yes, I need a break, but apparently here breaks are frowned upon. Gotta live to work in this country.
--
"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010)



JALevinworth

@embarqhsd.net

doing a work-related task == producing work
producing work == productivity at work

doing a non-work-related task == not producing work
Not producing work == non-productivity at work

2012-09-20 13:28:12



Name Game
Premium
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7
reply to The Limit

Cool good work..I understand your posting and agree with many of your thoughts and don't think the analogy was fair for recent
graduates.

But there is a concern from a business standpoint about what access a company's system should have facing the internet. As an example this link is a reference to one of the most secure facilities we might find out there...yet they are now bankrupt because of a hacker.
»Old news on DigiNotcar CA ..new News Bankruptcy auction
--
Gladiator Security Forum
»www.gladiator-antivirus.com/


dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 edit
reply to Sukunai

See, there's the thing that people seem to be overlooking - not all jobs are the same. For example, I don't work at a job where I have a 'locker', I have a desk. And as a general rule, it's fine for me to just leave for an hour in the middle of the day; the assumption is that I'm taking care of what needs to be taken care of, and I have a reasonable reason for skipping out. (I offer this as an example of differing work conditions, nothing more).

This might sound soft to some, but on the other hand, I'm expected to get done what I said I'd get done, and minor issues like going home after 40 hours don't really figure into it. The measurement points are project milestones, not hours. The consequence is that you tend not to leave work at work. Hasn't happened lately, but the 3AM phone call telling me that Some Big Customer is in crisis is not unknown to me. Even though I don't do customer support.

I can see that a guy making furniture on a factory floor probably shouldn't be checking his Facebook status. The guy writing code and waiting for the sysbuild to complete, not so much.

(If I were an employee of yours, your bottom line would likely be safer if you *didn't* make me make furniture...)



The Limit
Premium
join:2007-09-25
Greensboro, NC
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Windstream
reply to JALevinworth

In other words, taking breaks or lunch is considered unproductive.

Your logic is flawed. Doing a work related task != productivity.

However, doing a work related task efficiently and effectively == productivity. If all work is completed, then what work related tasks are left? Being busy for the sake of productivity != productivity.
--
"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010)



The Limit
Premium
join:2007-09-25
Greensboro, NC
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to dave

Thank you for pointing out this counter example. I fall into this category.



Name Game
Premium
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7
reply to The Limit

I think some work environments are changing..I even know of a few companies who have computers in the break rooms for employees to do their personal business..affording them this so they have less need to use their workstations for personal business..



JALevinworth

@embarqhsd.net
reply to dave

I agree Dave. There are different types of jobs with different types of work; levels of experience, etc. Some work is hourly, some is salary. Salary, traditionally, is (supposed to be) less about the hours worked but getting the job done. The more senior of your career, the more you earn latitude as well.

But, in relation to 1 in 5 job seekers requiring Facebook access? Being the person without the job, and without knowing about said job you are not yet doing, having unlimited access to facebook for personal use as a requirement seems to be a misplaced priority to me. IMHO

-Jim
2012-09-20 14:08:02



JALevinworth

@embarqhsd.net
reply to The Limit

said by JALevinworth :

doing a work-related task == producing work
producing work == productivity at work

doing a non-work-related task == not producing work
Not producing work == non-productivity at work

said by The Limit:

In other words, taking breaks or lunch is considered unproductive.

Your logic is flawed. Doing a work related task != productivity.

However, doing a work related task efficiently and effectively == productivity. If all work is completed, then what work related tasks are left? Being busy for the sake of productivity != productivity.

Taking a break or lunch is of course not on work time. You're not being paid to work then.

My logic is not flawed to me, it's flawed to you. We have differences of opinion about work.

As dave was just saying, and see my reply - Of course there are different levels of jobs that are structured different. It's not one size fits all as careers and jobs go. Some have more latitude than others depending on type.

You can certainly earn the privilege to have that latitude, but it's not a right.

Requiring personal facebook access as a job seeker seems to fall into believing it's a right.

IMHO - you certainly can disagree.

-Jim
2012-09-20 14:20:22

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to JALevinworth

You're making the assumption that a "job-seeker" has no job at present, and that this is the only offer he's got. Maybe that is inherent in the term (I think the British government bureaucracy uses "job-seeker" as a synonym for the rather negative "unemployed"), but I wasn't taking that as a given - I took it that we're talking about a guy interviewing for a particular vacant position.

Where'd you get the "without knowing about the job you're not yet doing" part? I'm not criticizing you, but I just looked at it from the point of view of weighing the pluses and minuses of a job offer.



The Limit
Premium
join:2007-09-25
Greensboro, NC
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Windstream
reply to JALevinworth

I'm certainly not trying to say that Facebook is a requirement, it's just another X for people to exercise their self discipline, or lack thereof.

My argument here is that Facebook isn't the problem, being lazy and lacking self discipline is the problem.

For future reference, I've worked at places where lunch was paid. It was a nice incentive, but not a requirement. Our work values differ in that actually "working" towards completing a task efficiently is work vs looking busy, which is more unproductive than sitting around and browsing the web.
--
"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010)



The Limit
Premium
join:2007-09-25
Greensboro, NC
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Windstream
reply to JALevinworth

And if taking breaks and going on lunch aren't on company time, then should completing tasks that your boss asks you to do while on lunch or break considered work? I think it is.
--
"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010)



JALevinworth

@embarqhsd.net
reply to dave

said by dave:

I wasn't assuming the job-seeker was unemployed. I said, " Being the person without the job" not a job. Meaning if you want said job in question, no matter if you have one or not.

Does that make it more clear now? Obviously, you can't know about all there is about a position you've never held no matter how many times you've held positions similar nor done what appears to be the same type work. Different employers, different needs, different workloads, different expectations, etc, etc. even different economies.

I'm not offended.

-Jim
2012-09-20 15:42:04


JALevinworth

@embarqhsd.net
reply to The Limit

If a person has done all their work and still getting paid then maybe they need to ask for more work.

I agree people shouldn't do things to "look busy". They should be busy with work.

My comments thus far aren't personal, and not aimed at you. It's just a discussion, you know? We're talking about people requiring facebook at work. Requiring is the operative word. I already acknowledged and agree that different jobs have different environments. I get yours may be different, but it's not about you and your particular job. It's about a single item (facebook) being a blanket requirement applied to a broad spectrum of jobs, and I say that because the stat is 1 in 5.

2012-09-20 15:57:06



The Limit
Premium
join:2007-09-25
Greensboro, NC
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Windstream

I see, then we are in agreement it seems.

I just get frustrated when I see people making aimed accusations against college grads, which the accusation in question isn't true.

College is more difficult than holding a job down IMO. I worked full time for a while, and having a job is way easier than the work I'm doing now. I struggle to pass some of the Abstract exams that I take (case in point, I have one tomorrow, and my instructor is requiring us to know information that we just finished covering yesterday and finishing a complex homework on top of the exam, and said homework will be on the exam).

I'm not having a great week, and unfortunately my instructor is the cause of it. Disorganized, scatterbrained, inconsistent, etc. It almost convinces me that formal education is really not worth the effort when I could be teaching myself (which is what I'm doing), but I have two semester left. Might as well just swallow the bitter pill and get it over with. Frustrating, because I love academia.
--
"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010)



rcdailey
Dragoonfly
Premium
join:2005-03-29
Rialto, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
reply to The Limit

That sort of thing happens all the time. If you "volunteer" to do company work on your own time, then don't complain.

As for all this Facebook stuff, many companies and organizations use Facebook in the course of their activities, so that makes Facebook part of their business. That further complicates the issue, doesn't it?

--
It is easier for a camel to put on a bikini than an old man to thread a needle.


dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

It's no "volunteering" per se, at least not in my case. In some sense it's an acceptance of the modern employment condition, but the quid-pro-quo is that we don't have employers watching every minute of the day. Gain: loose hours. Loss: loose hours.

FWIW, I was working throughout today. At home. So the chances of my employer preventing me accessing my non-existing Facebook account were zero. I understand that not everyone (a) has a job that even could work like this - the furniture-factory guy is a good example, (b) has employers that see the world like this. But we could do without people claiming we're pampered, lazy, etc.

Thanks for listening.



JALevinworth

@embarqhsd.net
reply to The Limit

said by The Limit:

I see, then we are in agreement it seems.

I had a feeling we weren't that far off.
said by The Limit:

I just get frustrated when I see people making aimed accusations against college grads, which the accusation in question isn't true.

I didn't see the part in the article about this being aimed at college grads, but if I missed it up thread, I'm sorry. FWIW I wasn't thinking of college grads myself.

I understand your sensitivity, though. I have one in college now and another one heading there. In many ways I can't compare my time in college to now. The costs are even more outrageous, the economy and outlook for college grads wasn't as bleak, and therefore that pressure is higher - yet, like so many groups these days, just being in the group you're stereotyped. "kids these days" - As generations before, My generation was once called that too.

I too get annoyed at some of the things said about students and post-grads because I know how very hard mine have worked to get where they are and they are just starting out. Hard work has been clearly instilled in them, and lack of entitlement has too. I can't speak for all kids of course and some may not have these values - same as some adults.

said by The Limit:

College is more difficult than holding a job down IMO.

I believe that's the case for you. But I will offer that there are people who have done both and their job was the harder one. It depends on the job too - And THAT brings our discussion full circle.

Good luck with your studies and thanks for engaging with me.

-Jim
2012-09-20 21:36:54


Frank
is chilling
Premium
join:2000-11-03
somewhere
reply to JALevinworth

said by JALevinworth :

said by JALevinworth :

doing a work-related task == producing work
producing work == productivity at work

doing a non-work-related task == not producing work
Not producing work == non-productivity at work

said by The Limit:

In other words, taking breaks or lunch is considered unproductive.

Your logic is flawed. Doing a work related task != productivity.

However, doing a work related task efficiently and effectively == productivity. If all work is completed, then what work related tasks are left? Being busy for the sake of productivity != productivity.

Taking a break or lunch is of course not on work time. You're not being paid to work then.

My logic is not flawed to me, it's flawed to you. We have differences of opinion about work.

As dave was just saying, and see my reply - Of course there are different levels of jobs that are structured different. It's not one size fits all as careers and jobs go. Some have more latitude than others depending on type.

You can certainly earn the privilege to have that latitude, but it's not a right.

Requiring personal facebook access as a job seeker seems to fall into believing it's a right.

IMHO - you certainly can disagree.

-Jim
2012-09-20 14:20:22

The thing is..........nobody should ever want skilled employees to be producing work 100% of the time, ALL THE TIME, because it accounts for micromanaging, poor planning and is virtually setting up a department to fail.

In other words, If you have skilled employees and they are working every second of the day (with the exception of lunch and two 15 minute breaks) then they wont have time to train on new things and a few people calling out sick or anybody taking a vacation will throw a monkey wrench into the department's workload. Eventually.... the more talented staff will quit and move on to greener pastures due to burnout which will make things worse.

Of course..... you can attempt to replace the people who quit, but while you're in the process of doing that your current resources will be strained significantly causing even more burnout and worse work output. Unlike unskilled employees, It can take weeks to find the right person with the right experience for a high-skill job and months to train them (which is time the current staff wont have time to do very well).

How does this relate to facebook? It's pretty simple... There has to be a balance. In other words, we're all adults, as long as a reasonable expectation is set and everybody does their work then everything is peachy, morale is high, and nobody cares if an employee does some occasional web surfing. If someone is slacking and not doing their job then they get fired and there are resources available to comfortably cover the work while a replacement is being found. If an emergency occurs and a few employees cant make it to work then it doesn't throw a monkey wrench into the operation of the department because it can still operate at 100% capacity if needed.


JALevinworth

@embarqhsd.net

I agree with all that specifically related to skilled office professionals that you describe.

Since the topic is, per the article, that 1-5 job seekers wouldn't take a job without access to facebook; I wonder how many employers would reject a candidate that made that inquiry in the interview? I have a feeling higher than 1-5. I could be wrong or it could be double that.

Signing off..

-Jim