 The LimitPremium
join:2007-09-25
Greensboro, NC
kudos:2 | reply to JALevinworth
Re: No Facebook at work? I'll look elsewhere... I'm certainly not trying to say that Facebook is a requirement, it's just another X for people to exercise their self discipline, or lack thereof.
My argument here is that Facebook isn't the problem, being lazy and lacking self discipline is the problem.
For future reference, I've worked at places where lunch was paid. It was a nice incentive, but not a requirement. Our work values differ in that actually "working" towards completing a task efficiently is work vs looking busy, which is more unproductive than sitting around and browsing the web.
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"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010) |
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The LimitPremium
join:2007-09-25
Greensboro, NC
kudos:2 | reply to JALevinworth
And if taking breaks and going on lunch aren't on company time, then should completing tasks that your boss asks you to do while on lunch or break considered work? I think it is.
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"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010) |
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| reply to dave
I wasn't assuming the job-seeker was unemployed. I said, " Being the person without the job" not a job. Meaning if you want said job in question, no matter if you have one or not.
Does that make it more clear now? Obviously, you can't know about all there is about a position you've never held no matter how many times you've held positions similar nor done what appears to be the same type work. Different employers, different needs, different workloads, different expectations, etc, etc. even different economies.
I'm not offended. 
-Jim
2012-09-20 15:42:04 |
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| reply to The Limit
If a person has done all their work and still getting paid then maybe they need to ask for more work.
I agree people shouldn't do things to "look busy". They should be busy with work.
My comments thus far aren't personal, and not aimed at you. It's just a discussion, you know? We're talking about people requiring facebook at work. Requiring is the operative word. I already acknowledged and agree that different jobs have different environments. I get yours may be different, but it's not about you and your particular job. It's about a single item (facebook) being a blanket requirement applied to a broad spectrum of jobs, and I say that because the stat is 1 in 5.
2012-09-20 15:57:06 |
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The LimitPremium
join:2007-09-25
Greensboro, NC
kudos:2 | I see, then we are in agreement it seems.
I just get frustrated when I see people making aimed accusations against college grads, which the accusation in question isn't true.
College is more difficult than holding a job down IMO. I worked full time for a while, and having a job is way easier than the work I'm doing now. I struggle to pass some of the Abstract exams that I take (case in point, I have one tomorrow, and my instructor is requiring us to know information that we just finished covering yesterday and finishing a complex homework on top of the exam, and said homework will be on the exam).
I'm not having a great week, and unfortunately my instructor is the cause of it. Disorganized, scatterbrained, inconsistent, etc. It almost convinces me that formal education is really not worth the effort when I could be teaching myself (which is what I'm doing), but I have two semester left. Might as well just swallow the bitter pill and get it over with. Frustrating, because I love academia.
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"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010) |
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 rcdaileyDragoonflyPremium
join:2005-03-29
Rialto, CA
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to The Limit
That sort of thing happens all the time. If you "volunteer" to do company work on your own time, then don't complain.
As for all this Facebook stuff, many companies and organizations use Facebook in the course of their activities, so that makes Facebook part of their business. That further complicates the issue, doesn't it?
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It is easier for a camel to put on a bikini than an old man to thread a needle. |
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davePremium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8 | It's no "volunteering" per se, at least not in my case. In some sense it's an acceptance of the modern employment condition, but the quid-pro-quo is that we don't have employers watching every minute of the day. Gain: loose hours. Loss: loose hours.
FWIW, I was working throughout today. At home. So the chances of my employer preventing me accessing my non-existing Facebook account were zero. I understand that not everyone (a) has a job that even could work like this - the furniture-factory guy is a good example, (b) has employers that see the world like this. But we could do without people claiming we're pampered, lazy, etc.
Thanks for listening. |
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| reply to The Limit
said by The Limit:I see, then we are in agreement it seems. I had a feeling we weren't that far off.
said by The Limit:I just get frustrated when I see people making aimed accusations against college grads, which the accusation in question isn't true. I didn't see the part in the article about this being aimed at college grads, but if I missed it up thread, I'm sorry. FWIW I wasn't thinking of college grads myself.
I understand your sensitivity, though. I have one in college now and another one heading there. In many ways I can't compare my time in college to now. The costs are even more outrageous, the economy and outlook for college grads wasn't as bleak, and therefore that pressure is higher - yet, like so many groups these days, just being in the group you're stereotyped. "kids these days" - As generations before, My generation was once called that too.
I too get annoyed at some of the things said about students and post-grads because I know how very hard mine have worked to get where they are and they are just starting out. Hard work has been clearly instilled in them, and lack of entitlement has too. I can't speak for all kids of course and some may not have these values - same as some adults.
said by The Limit:College is more difficult than holding a job down IMO.
I believe that's the case for you. But I will offer that there are people who have done both and their job was the harder one. It depends on the job too - And THAT brings our discussion full circle. 
Good luck with your studies and thanks for engaging with me.
-Jim
2012-09-20 21:36:54 |
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 Frankis chillingPremium
join:2000-11-03
somewhere | reply to JALevinworth
said by JALevinworth :said by JALevinworth :doing a work-related task == producing work
producing work == productivity at work
doing a non-work-related task == not producing work
Not producing work == non-productivity at work
said by The Limit:In other words, taking breaks or lunch is considered unproductive.
Your logic is flawed. Doing a work related task != productivity.
However, doing a work related task efficiently and effectively == productivity. If all work is completed, then what work related tasks are left? Being busy for the sake of productivity != productivity.
Taking a break or lunch is of course not on work time. You're not being paid to work then. My logic is not flawed to me, it's flawed to you. We have differences of opinion about work. As dave was just saying, and see my reply - Of course there are different levels of jobs that are structured different. It's not one size fits all as careers and jobs go. Some have more latitude than others depending on type. You can certainly earn the privilege to have that latitude, but it's not a right. Requiring personal facebook access as a job seeker seems to fall into believing it's a right. IMHO - you certainly can disagree. -Jim 2012-09-20 14:20:22 The thing is..........nobody should ever want skilled employees to be producing work 100% of the time, ALL THE TIME, because it accounts for micromanaging, poor planning and is virtually setting up a department to fail.
In other words, If you have skilled employees and they are working every second of the day (with the exception of lunch and two 15 minute breaks) then they wont have time to train on new things and a few people calling out sick or anybody taking a vacation will throw a monkey wrench into the department's workload. Eventually.... the more talented staff will quit and move on to greener pastures due to burnout which will make things worse.
Of course..... you can attempt to replace the people who quit, but while you're in the process of doing that your current resources will be strained significantly causing even more burnout and worse work output. Unlike unskilled employees, It can take weeks to find the right person with the right experience for a high-skill job and months to train them (which is time the current staff wont have time to do very well).
How does this relate to facebook? It's pretty simple... There has to be a balance. In other words, we're all adults, as long as a reasonable expectation is set and everybody does their work then everything is peachy, morale is high, and nobody cares if an employee does some occasional web surfing. If someone is slacking and not doing their job then they get fired and there are resources available to comfortably cover the work while a replacement is being found. If an emergency occurs and a few employees cant make it to work then it doesn't throw a monkey wrench into the operation of the department because it can still operate at 100% capacity if needed. |
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| I agree with all that specifically related to skilled office professionals that you describe.
Since the topic is, per the article, that 1-5 job seekers wouldn't take a job without access to facebook; I wonder how many employers would reject a candidate that made that inquiry in the interview? I have a feeling higher than 1-5. I could be wrong or it could be double that.
Signing off..
-Jim |
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 wxbossThis is like Deja vu all over again.Premium
join:2005-01-30
Fort Lauderdale, FL
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| reply to StuartMW
I understand the spirit of the conversation thus far, but I will submit my opinion, or maybe a better word would be acceptance of the employer's expectations from me.
I am contractor. As such, I have to abide by the client's rules whether or not I have a personal affinity towards said rules. I have the option of accepting their terms and receiving a paycheck along with it, or rejecting them and looking for a job elsewhere.
My real need for a paycheck (for practically obvious reasons) far outweighs any personal needs I may have for access to certain websites while at work. In short, I do what my client wants and they pay me. What a concept!
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"I do not believe in a fate that falls on men however they act; but I do believe in a fate that falls on them unless they act." --- G. K. Chesterton |
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The LimitPremium
join:2007-09-25
Greensboro, NC
kudos:2 | reply to JALevinworth
It wasn't, someone had posted something idiotic about how college students are lazy and usually unemployed.
I would jump at a job in a second if that meant that I could continue in my studies while working. Being a math major, I don't have that option. I literally spend my entire day on campus, and I am swamped. What breaks I take set me behind in SOME class, and it's usually the one that this particular instructor has scheduled to be "let's take an exam on Friday, and then have a mathematical proof paper that usually takes about 4-5 pages of math symbols to write due in a week, and then a quiz that following monday, and then a homework that spans 4-5 pages two days after the quiz, and then the final corrections due two days after that."
This instructor is terrible with keeping a schedule, and contradicts herself when she wants us to be particular, but the solutions that she posts after we have turned in said homework are all shorthand and sloppy, and in some places not copied well.
I am not dropping the class, this is not an option. I want to get out of this class with a passing grade, and if that means a C, then that's what I'll accept I guess. I'm working 4 times as hard to make up for her mistakes.
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"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010) |
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SukunaiPremium
join:2008-05-07
kudos:1 Reviews:
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·TekSavvy DSL
| reply to StuartMW
The problem with Facebook is mainly how easy it is to get to Facebook.
And we all know that people simply can't not live without their*&#@* cellphone in their hand.
And there isn't much in the way of work out there that prevents a person from having a cell phone in their pocket. And if people are commonly incapable of driving and shutting up, or walking down the street and not texting, then I can't picture ANY job where a person will be disinclined to not take their phone out of their pocket and fiddle with it.
And that includes factory floors and contruction sites. As well as nice white collar yuppie jobs.
I'd be inclined to tell an employee cells were a 3 strike process. 1st and second are warning and final warning with 3rd offense being 'you are fired'. People expect all manner of job security and perks just because they work for someone. I myself, would expect an employee to be working every last second they are on the clock. Use your break/lunch time to Facebook.
For those on non structured employ, well that is their call. As long as the work gets done on schedule, I doubt the employer cares what you are doing.
Which is why it is nice to get those sort of yuppies forms of employment. |
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davePremium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8 | said by Sukunai:Which is why it is nice to get those sort of yuppies forms of employment.
A little class warfare going on here?
Re: phones. The average office employer has a simple choice:
- let me make a personal phone call on company time, cost to productivity, 5 mins.
- require me to make a phone call on my own time, I'll leave the office on the dot after 8 hours, or else take a full lunch hour; cost to productivity unclear, could be from half-an-hour up.
That is, it's not a case of someone wanting to give me a free ride, it's a case of someone wanting me in the office for as many hours as possible. Letting me make necessary personal phone calls increases the company's bottom line.
You seem to be of the opinion that if I can use a phone at all, I will automatically be yakking on it all the time. That's a little insulting, doncha think?
(FWIW, I'm also working while typing this. That's how it is with computers.) |
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 ROCINANTEOriginal Member 007Premium
join:1999-06-29
Hartsdale, NY | reply to The Limit
said by The Limit:Is that so? Lazy? Maybe unemployed, but lazy? I work harder than most people do in a REAL job. People with REAL jobs get BREAKS. People like me DO NOT. So piss off and take your generalizations elsewhere.
Notice how I used the word "many" and not "all" or even "most" to prevent the "HE'S TALKING ABOUT ME!" type of emotional outbursts that proved two of my points I listed.
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CRUNCH THIS! |
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The LimitPremium
join:2007-09-25
Greensboro, NC
kudos:2 | reply to dave
I find that those who say "WORK EVERY SECOND ON THE CLOCK! MICROMANAGEMENT!" are usually the same people who actually don't work every second on the clock, or are in a nice position to tell us peons that this is how it should be for us, just because.
I've found that these same people don't hold up their end of the bargain either. You work hard, get your work done, etc but that other person who complains about unproductivity ends up being the unproductive one.
Some of you need to chill out. This isn't a matter of life and death, and I can tell you from experience and observation that employees are less productive when a manager is hovering over their shoulder every 5 minutes. Just because one person has a problem with self control, doesn't mean that everyone has a problem with self control.
The American way of thinking really bothers me. We work so that we can live, not the other way around. Work shouldn't be idolized, or become someone's identity. Period.
I am in agreement with you Dave.
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"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010) |
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The LimitPremium
join:2007-09-25
Greensboro, NC
kudos:2 | reply to ROCINANTE
I don't care what word you used, it's not true. I don't see sources, citations, no proof. What I see is an opinion that ignorant "elders" like to pass off on the younger generation when in fact, we have it much harder than they ever did.
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"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010) |
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The LimitPremium
join:2007-09-25
Greensboro, NC
kudos:2 | reply to ROCINANTE
If you want to call my post out as being emotional, then by all means, do so. But I had a right to do so, because that kind of information is misinformation and has not been proven as far as I can tell.
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"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010) |
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Reviews:
·AT&T Southwest
| reply to neonturbo
said by neonturbo:Facebook is not always a time waster, it is how many young people communicate nowadays.
Communicate what? Are you discussing work related stuff on Facebook for all the world to see? I'd fire you, too. |
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| reply to The Limit
said by The Limit:What I see is an opinion that ignorant "elders" like to pass off on the younger generation when in fact, we have it much harder than they ever did.
Enough with the pity party.
You do not have it harder than your elders, your expectations are different. You never worked in a coal mine at age 6, or starved through the depression, or worked on a farm. Working through lunch and breaks has gone on for years.
The difference is your elders were raised from the beginning with the idea they would have to work, not doted on in schools. They were prepared, our young ones weren't. So let's not get carried away here, and welcome to the real world. |
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