 BlackbirdBuilt for SpeedPremium
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:3
 ·Frontier Communi..
| reply to plencnerb
Re: [WIN8] Windows 8 --- What benifits over W7-64? said by plencnerb:... there is the side that Microsoft wants to try to have the same interface on all your devices, regardless of what it is (the whole reason behind Metro, as far as I can tell). If you're using a Windows Phone, Smartphone, Tablet, Desktop, Surface Table, or Laptop, your "User Interface" is the same. The strategm of aiming for the same interface on all devices is a Microsoft corporate tactical decision designed to increase market share/dominance across those devices... to my observation, it has not been "demanded" by users in the marketplace, particularly the desktop-using universe.
said by plencnerb:... While allowing the end user to select their "start" GUI, Microsoft may have felt that if they give the end user the choice, few people would actually use it, which would defeat the purpose of having a new interface. If users were to largely opt out of the Metro UI, then it would certainly prove it was never demanded by them. Instead, removal of choice is proof positive of Microsoft placing their corporate strategy ahead of meeting many users' wants/needs in their product. Not providing the user the opportunity to select their interface smacks of corporate arrogance: Microsoft will drag users kicking and screaming into a world that is dominated by Microsoft's one-size-fits-all corporate strategm aimed at cross-market domination, regardless of the wants and needs of a whole class of desktop users whose productivity will seriously suffer as a result. This is the same pathway they chose with the ribbon concept in Office products, and at least for some time, user productivity has suffered... but that's not a cost element Microsoft has to deal with; instead, users have to.
said by plencnerb:... So, I feel Microsoft is in a sort of "rock and a hard place" with this. The question they probably asked themselves is which group of people do we upset? That can be a tough decision to make, as every person is your customer, and if at all possible, you don't want to upset any customer. The only rock and hard place Microsoft is in has been a place they've chosen to put themselves. Nowhere is there written some natural requirement that all products must have the same interfaces. When I use a phone, I don't expect it to look or work just like an FM radio, nor do I expect a desktop computer to look or work just like a cell phone. In areas where their usages do overlap, there's no reason on earth why the interfaces can't be similar in those usage cases. But an interface that makes sense on a handheld (with its micro-display) makes no inherent sense on a computer used for... computing.
said by plencnerb:... Finally, there is the side of this that goes along with change. Its a new version, new interface. You either adapt and learn, or you get left behind. I have no inherent problem with change, other than that it costs. So I want that cost to be truly needful, not just to enhance the corporate master strategy of somebody else. Whenever a major change is made in how work is done, especially repetitive work like usually performed on a computer, there is both an immediate and a lingering negative impact on efficiency in doing that work... and loss of efficiency carries a cost in time, output, and dollars. This was one of the most immediate negative impacts in the business environment from MS switching Office software to the ribbon instead of menus, and it will have a similar costly impact in changing how the desktop looks and acts. But Microsoft will not experience the costs... its users will. Unless the changes to how a class of software has long worked are truly necessary for sound, cost-effective, technical reasons, they will result in wasted resources. It should prove illuminating to watch how readily business accepts Windows8, considering the negative impact to corporate user training and ongoing productivity.
A real question is what the tangible, real-world benefits of Win8 might be? Especially to the desktop using world, particularly those whose computer usage is heavily into "computing", business, etc.
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"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!" -- P.Henry, 1775 |
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 JohnInSJPremium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA | reply to Jan Janowski
Of course one real benefit of W8 over W7 would be if you were running the OS on a touch enabled desktop/laptop. Which will be all of the new ones.
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My place : »www.schettino.us |
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| (Touch Enabled) No, I upgraded to a Jog/Shuttle knob in W98/XT, and that allows me to build macros per button... Touch... No... That doesn't give me any improvements over Keyboard shortcuts, JogShuttle Knob, and/or Mouse control...
The whole point of my post is not for a new computer.... but is it worth the $$ to upgrade existing computer? The XT to W7-64 had very obvious feature Improvements that I'm not seeing in W8... XT to W7-64 was a "No-Brainer".... and I jumped...
These 'No-Brainer' features that I'm searching for in W8.... (That jumped right out to be Obvious in W7) seem to be lacking... That was the whole point of my post...
Still Searching.....
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Looking for 1939 Indian Motocycle |
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Reviews:
 ·Cox HSI
| reply to JohnInSJ
said by JohnInSJ:Of course one real benefit of W8 over W7 would be if you were running the OS on a touch enabled desktop/laptop. Which will be all of the new ones.
I really fail to see why anybody would resort to smearing greasy fingers all over the screen of their laptop/desktop when they have a superior input method available in front of them, aka a keyboard and mouse/trackpad. I've tried to be open minded about it, I really have, but...
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Ron Paul 2012 »www.ronpaul2012.com
Beyond AM. Beyond FM. (((XM)))
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| said by BillRoland:I really fail to see why anybody would resort to smearing greasy fingers all over the screen of their laptop/desktop when they have a superior input method available in front of them, aka a keyboard and mouse/trackpad. I've tried to be open minded about it, I really have, but... Ergonomically, it doesn't work in a normal office setting. I chuckle when I watch Daily Planet on Discovery channel, the tech segment, with their big wall display and grand, exagerated gestures, to open a window (probably powered by something like Kinect). It would give you a full body workout, but I can't see doing it all day long. |
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OZOPremium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2 | reply to BillRoland
said by BillRoland:said by JohnInSJ:Of course one real benefit of W8 over W7 would be if you were running the OS on a touch enabled desktop/laptop. Which will be all of the new ones.
I really fail to see why anybody would resort to smearing greasy fingers all over the screen of their laptop/desktop when they have a superior input method available in front of them, aka a keyboard and mouse/trackpad. I've tried to be open minded about it, I really have, but... Absolutely...
I don't know how the people will be able to work with it all day long. Just try to imagine you have to keep your hands not on the top of your desk, but constantly pointing with their fingers to something on the screen.... It's weird how the designers of new (and "preferred" now user interface) don't see any problems here. Don't they know some (if not many) people are buying keyboard and mouse pads to rest their palms on during all day of their work with computers? Why do they're doing that? It's because they are getting tired. And now they have to lift their hands to rich the screen directly... IMO It's dumb (from ergonomic perspective) to force people to do it whole day long.
There is a place for UI for smartphone and there is a place (and the need) for UI for old desktop environment (proven by many years to work just well in business environments). Forcing the new UI will shoot MS in the foot and push businesses to invest in another OS's. Is that the goal behind this change?
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Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself... |
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JohnInSJPremium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA Reviews:
 ·PHONE POWER
·Comcast
| reply to BillRoland
said by BillRoland:said by JohnInSJ:Of course one real benefit of W8 over W7 would be if you were running the OS on a touch enabled desktop/laptop. Which will be all of the new ones.
I really fail to see why anybody would resort to smearing greasy fingers all over the screen of their laptop/desktop when they have a superior input method available in front of them, aka a keyboard and mouse/trackpad. I've tried to be open minded about it, I really have, but... Yep. If you use touch devices for everything else (tablets, phones, ereaders) and then sit in front of your compute device, your natural inclination to continue doing the same actions to achieve the same results is there. Especially for non-technical people (you know, the ones who spend the most money on stuff.) The "smearing" thing - you wipe the glass now and then 
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My place : »www.schettino.us |
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JohnInSJPremium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA Reviews:
·PHONE POWER
·Comcast
| reply to Jan Janowski
said by Jan Janowski:The whole point of my post is not for a new computer.... but is it worth the $$ to upgrade existing computer?
And the answer has been given. If you need or want any of the new features, yes. If not, no. For you, it's a no (at release, anyway.)
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My place : »www.schettino.us |
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 EricthornIt only hurts when I laughPremium
join:2001-08-10
Paragould, AR | reply to Jan Janowski
The only reason I'll be running an 8 machine at home is simply for support purposes. Same reason I still run a stand alone XP rig. After playing with it a bit in a vm, there is just nothing there to make me change. I was on XP for years before I changed to 7, and that was only because a game I wanted to play needed Direct X 10, so I had to cave. It's pissed me off to no end that I now have to dual boot 7 and XP because one of my favorite games simply will not run reliably on 7. The company i work at is not going to move to 8, but we are going to have one rig running 8 for the customers that call and we need to help them navigate their own PC. I have firmly railed against this, as we do not support Windows. We support a custom POS system, and it's the customers job to know how to navigate their PC outside of our POS. But invariably we end up having to help customers in their Windows environment.
I feel like Walter saying 'pisses me off'
I guess it keeps the bills getting paid.
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Ever try stuffing a melted marshmallow up a wildcat's ass? It can be done, but you have to like your job. - This Is The Way The World Ends by James Morrow - Join a DC club, it can't hurt you! |
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Reviews:
·Cox HSI
| reply to JohnInSJ
said by JohnInSJ:said by BillRoland:said by JohnInSJ:Of course one real benefit of W8 over W7 would be if you were running the OS on a touch enabled desktop/laptop. Which will be all of the new ones.
I really fail to see why anybody would resort to smearing greasy fingers all over the screen of their laptop/desktop when they have a superior input method available in front of them, aka a keyboard and mouse/trackpad. I've tried to be open minded about it, I really have, but... Yep. If you use touch devices for everything else (tablets, phones, ereaders) and then sit in front of your compute device, your natural inclination to continue doing the same actions to achieve the same results is there. Especially for non-technical people (you know, the ones who spend the most money on stuff.) The "smearing" thing - you wipe the glass now and then I guess all I can say is "we'll see." I wouldn't bet my house on Windows 8 being a raving success.
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Ron Paul 2012 »www.ronpaul2012.com
Beyond AM. Beyond FM. (((XM)))
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| reply to Jan Janowski
I don't even like the touch pad on my laptops. It's so inprecise and I find it tiring. Not that I use my laptop keyboard either. I have external mice and keyboards at home and at work.
I use a mouse for everything. It is very precise and economical in terms of movement. I have the mouse scroll wheel set to scroll one visible page length per wheel increment. I can quickly scroll thought any document with small, precise movements and not miss anything, all with both of my palms resting comfortably and my elbows at the ergonomically recommended 90 degree angle.
I can't even image trying to select and highlight a few words of text to cut and paste to another location using a touch interface and touch keyboard. It would drive me nuts.
When I'm travelling, I can barely stand composing a 20 word e-mail on my Playbook. Sure, its fine for writing "i'll get back 2 u" But it would be hell trying to edit a 30 page proposal with graphics and screen captures. |
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JohnInSJPremium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA Reviews:
·PHONE POWER
·Comcast
| reply to BillRoland
said by BillRoland:I guess all I can say is "we'll see." I wouldn't bet my house on Windows 8 being a raving success.
Microsoft is, along with many other big bets, all related.
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My place : »www.schettino.us |
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 OctaveanPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1 | reply to Jan Janowski
XP came out in 2001 or something like that. Windows 7 came out in 2009. Is it not a possibility that those people that held-out on XP are just apt to hold onto an OS they feel comfortable with for as long as they think it possible? In this case up to ~8 years or so maybe more.
Some people will use a pair of underwear until it disintegrates off their body whereas others will toss away a pair of underwear at the first sign of overuse (or buy a new pair just for the heck of it).
So for some it may not be a question of features of a new OS but one of habit. |
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1 edit | In practice, we hang on to old computers until the threat of hardware failure induces us to upgrade to new hardware. And then we get the flavour of Windows of the day that comes with it. We are usually not motivated by the need for higher performance and never motivated by the need for new features (with the exception of WPA2 support on a couple of old netbooks).
The only OS's that we have actively avoided (so far) were Vista and ME. We actually bought 7 used PCs with XP Pro licenses during the Vista period, largely because we didn't want to replace all of our peripherals (printers, scanners, etc.) at the same time. Half of our machines are still running XP. The other half are Win7. |
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| reply to redxii
I happen to like the W8 Preview Version so far. It's not only a "tablet version" OS. You can easily access your desktop on your computer from the "home" screen.
It runs faster and crisper on my Dell laptop than any other version of windows so far (Intel 5 first generation, 8 GB memory, ATI 5400 series dedicated graphics)
As far as Windows Media Center goes, check here: »news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57445···preview/ |
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davePremium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
1 edit | reply to JohnInSJ
I don't see why everyone assumes it's "keyboard and mouse" versus "touch screen".
The mouse is just a hack because we don't have touch screens. Before mice, we used light pens, which was just a hack to simulate touch screens. (Light pens failed, in my opinion, because they were fatiguing to use - they were pretty heavy).
I'd remind you all that the point of pointer devices is to point at something on the screen. Pointing your finger is more natural than moving a device that moves a pointer to the thing you want pointed at.
The winning combination to me looks like keyboard and touch screen.
Agreed that the 'smear' problem is a problem, though. Ditto the precision problem, though perhaps a stylus might be the answer.
But most of you luddites seem to have fixated on the only pointer device you know as the ultimate in pointer devices. It ain't. It's just a very very successful hack. |
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Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
| reply to Glen T
said by Glen T:Ergonomically, it doesn't work in a normal office setting.
What, people find it inefficient in offices to swipe the right bar, tap settings, tap power, tap shut down in Windows 8
vs.
Start. Shutdown in Windows 7?
The Windows 8 method seems to go well with a heavily paperworked corporate environment that has management forms for every task imaginable. |
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OZOPremium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
1 edit | reply to dave
said by dave:Pointing your finger is more natural than moving a device that moves a pointer to the thing you want pointed at. Really? Is that so simple? And you failed to see any difference here?
Mouse is precise pointing device. You can point to one pixel on the screen. People who do graphic work, make icons, etc know how important it is. People who do simple text editing know it too. Even windows borders has just couple of pixels in width, But with mouse you can easily point on the border and change its size in a snap.
Finger, on the other hand (actually on both hands  ) can point only on a small area (5x5px or bigger, depending on the size of your finger and how much beer you had) and never on one pixel.
That difference required complete re-design of UI. UI for fingers can't replace UI that was designed with precise mouse pointer in mind. Thus, you don't have windows, where you can't change their sizes - you have big tails and full screen applications instead. Of course you still can handle it with precise mouse pointer, but what's the point? It's like hammering nails with a microscope - it may work (device is heavy and feel metal in some parts) too, but again, what's the point to do it this way?
Finally, regards to point of pointing on something on the screen and is it natural or not. It could be considered natural for 1 year old child. But when one has ever tried to move mouse in front of computer and see what it does on the screen it becomes as natural as any other actions. It's like you have to try to ride a bike (and may not consider it natural at first time), but after a little practice you start thinking that it's actually natural for you (you don't need to think how to do it when you do it)...
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Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself... |
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davePremium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8 | Yeah, yeah, I get all that - that's why I said "there is a precision problem" or words to that effect.
What I'm talking about is the sheer ludditeism exhibited here, the notion that there can never be anything better than what we have today. This is not a claim that Windows 8 is better than Windows 7. I don't plan to upgrade existing systems myself.
My topic was 'I don't see why everyone assumes it's "keyboard and mouse" versus "touch screen"'. |
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OctaveanPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1 | reply to Jan Janowski
I thought this was an interesting read:
Why I Still Use Windows Or: the countdown to a fresh Start. |
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