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JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA
reply to urbanriot

Re: [WIN8] Windows 8 --- What benifits over W7-64?

said by urbanriot:

said by Glen T:

Ergonomically, it doesn't work in a normal office setting.

What, people find it inefficient in offices to swipe the right bar, tap settings, tap power, tap shut down in Windows 8

vs.

Start. Shutdown in Windows 7?

The Windows 8 method seems to go well with a heavily paperworked corporate environment that has management forms for every task imaginable.

I just click an icon I made, which is a shortcut to the shutdown (and restart) command line commands. They're tiles, too. Or I press the power button (which is set to "shutdown" as its action. Or close the lid for sleep.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us

Glen T

join:2003-11-03
BC

2 edits
reply to dave

said by dave:

Yeah, yeah, I get all that - that's why I said "there is a precision problem" or words to that effect.

What I'm talking about is the sheer ludditeism exhibited here, the notion that there can never be anything better than what we have today. This is not a claim that Windows 8 is better than Windows 7. I don't plan to upgrade existing systems myself.

My topic was 'I don't see why everyone assumes it's "keyboard and mouse" versus "touch screen"'.

The topic is if there is a benefit in Win 8 over Win 7. If we all agree that the interface formerly known as Metro is the main benefit, then I have to answer, no, because touch screen computing does not make my job easier. And spending extra time working around a GUI that puts touch screen computing up front and center, does not make my job easier.

Show me touch computing where my hands are resting in an argonomically correct position, with my elbows at a 90 degree angle, while my head is held at a comfortable angle (neck not bent with head looking down) and I have precise control over the cursor at all times, and I'll see the benefit and stop being a luddite.

Maybe in Corning's vision of the future, but I think that we are a ways off of that (and note the lack of an intrusive OS):

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZkHpNnX···youtu.be


P.S. Another issue is that I use 1920 x 1200 resolutions screens (which are getting harder to find as vendors are chopping vertical resolution to match HD formats). In order for a 24" UXGA screen to be comfortably in my field of view (progressive lenses require more head turning/scanning) it is just beyond my reach, making touch screens absolutely useless to me.


sholling
Premium
join:2002-02-13
Hemet, CA
kudos:1
reply to Glen T

said by Glen T:

The same thing happened with the ribbon bar in MS Office. Given the choice, most users would not use it. Why? Because, for experienced users, it actually reduces their productivity. The ribbon bar is still having a negative impact on my productivity in programs like Excel.

This is a marketing decision, not a usability decision. The interface formerly known as Metro is a one-size-fits-none solution imposed by a company that is once again releasing a "Me Too" product that is too little and too late. The only way that they can ensure adoption is to impose adoption on hapless desktop users.

I agree completely - I hate the ribbon bar and Metro and I don't see any reason to have to forget everything I know about Windows and Office every time somebody in Redmond get's the bright idea to change the interface for no reason that benefits the customer. As far as I'm concerned Metro is MS Bob 2013 and will have exactly the same level of acceptance in the corporate world.
--
"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
--FREDERIC BASTIAT--

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
reply to Glen T

said by Glen T:

The topic is if there is a benefit in Win 8 over Win 7. If we all agree that the interface formerly known as Metro is the main benefit, then I have to answer, no, because touch screen computing does not make my job easier. And spending extra time working around a GUI that puts touch screen computing up front and center, does not make my job easier.

Show me touch computing where my hands are resting in an argonomically correct position, with my elbows at a 90 degree angle, while my head is held at a comfortable angle (neck not bent with head looking down) and I have precise control over the cursor at all times, and I'll see the benefit and stop being a luddite.

And one more thing about touch interface, that should be mentioned here. Along it's being imprecise (pointing to a big spot, not to one pixel), being against all ergonomic recommendations and requiring to clean the screen from greasy smudges, playing with smartphone a lot, I found it completely unreliable. You touch the screen and you never know if your touch is accepted as input or not (due to low pressure, brief time, etc). If you're lucky the button you touch will become green for a short while and it actually may help you to recognize, that input was accepted. But in many cases I touch it, I wait it for the action, there is nothing happened and I touch it again ... just to discover, that at the very same moment image of the button was replaced with a new button, that takes that input as a request for a new action (which I don't want/expect)...

There is a reason, why mouse has buttons, that click (hint - to give you feedback). It's the very same reason, why a good keyboard has a distinctive feedback too, BTW. There is no such thing with touch screens. Thus to make the UI work more reliable, it should be redesigned and many confirmation dialog boxes should be added for every critical action. That is also useful in cases when I may accidentally touch my smart phone screen without intention to do anything.

Bottom line the touch screen interface is (additionally to other problems mentioned earlier) unreliable and therefore requires a different UI, that is specifically designed with that "feature" in mind. That's one more reason why I don't want / need W8 on my desktop.
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


workablob

join:2004-06-09
Houston, TX
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to Jan Janowski

I've been using it exclusively for my work PC for a couple (maybe 3) weeks) and after installing Stardock Start8 honestly It's sometimes hard to remember I'm not running Windows 7.

If I had to pay to upgrade I would not bother.

It has some nice features that Win7 does not have but if my boss told me tomorrow I could not run 8 I would go back to Win 7 without a thought.

This is the RTM version I am running.

Dave
--
I may have been born yesterday. But it wasn't at night.



kickass69

join:2002-06-03
Lake Hopatcong, NJ

1 edit

Once Stardock's Start8 comes out of beta though...it'll end up costing $4.99. This sets a bad precedent having to pay for features that were once part of the OS to have it work productively as it did before.

Sure there's Classic Shell out there thankfully, but once Windows 7 is past its prime and IF Microsoft continues with this and gets rid of the desktop interface altogether, what then?



btB

@rr.com
reply to Jan Janowski

The Desktop is there for legacy purposes. If you remove it, then you literally have WinRT.

Start8's start menu replacement looks exactly like Windows 7. It even has some Aero effects. Freebie Classic Shell is fine though. Seriously, debating the interface at this stage of the game is a waste of time as either of these 2 options will satisfy 99% of the users out there.

Anyway, the purpose of of Windows 8 is not something MS created just so they can sell you an upgrade. Likewise, it is also not just Windows 7 without a start button and replaced with Metro.

Reason for Windows 8 in the first place is that Microsoft is afraid of the term Apple term "post PC" that everybody accepts. All the so-called tech experts say that everybody will be soon be using non-PC devices that uses a mobile OS. Microsoft realized that those specs can actually run Windows. That means people can do real computing on something with mobile hardware.

Hence, Windows 8 is Microsoft's mobile OS meaning that it is capable of running on mobile hardware. With a mobile OS, you expect things like faster boot and longer battery life. Even traditional non-touch screen devices benefit from these types of improvements.

The biggest difference in this new version of Windows is that you get another OS. That is you get x86 WinRT that can run its own apps. Those apps are more commonly known as Metro/Windows 8 apps.



workablob

join:2004-06-09
Houston, TX
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to kickass69

said by kickass69:

Once Stardock's Start8 comes out of beta though...it'll end up costing $4.99. This sets a bad precedent having to pay for features that were once part of the OS to have it work productively as it did before.

Sure there's Classic Shell out there thankfully, but once Windows 7 is past it's prime and IF Microsoft continues with this and gets rid of the desktop interface altogether, what then?

Start8 free expired a couple of days ago so I shelled out the 4.99.

I go through 5 buck attomizers on my eCig like water so not a big deal.

But you are very correct. Windows 8 on the desktop is going to plummet like a stone just like Microsoft Flight did, as I predicted.
»Microsoft Flight Gimme A Break

Dave
--
I may have been born yesterday. But it wasn't at night.


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA

said by workablob:

But you are very correct. Windows 8 on the desktop is going to plummet like a stone just like Microsoft Flight did, as I predicted.
»Microsoft Flight Gimme A Break

Been using it since it became available on MSDN on several machines. It takes about 10 minutes of actual use to get used to the differences. Doubtful any plummeting will happen. People will do what they always do - get the new OS when they get new hardware (and some pretty nifty hardware will be coming out for this OS) while corps will do their normal three year cycle, so they'll skip win8 and continue their slow grind to win7 (HP will be getting there THIS year, according to the handful of folks I know that still work there. Wow) and a smaller group of people will upgrade. Maybe more with the low upgrade price, but more is still not many.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


workablob

join:2004-06-09
Houston, TX
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Comcast

said by JohnInSJ:

said by workablob:

But you are very correct. Windows 8 on the desktop is going to plummet like a stone just like Microsoft Flight did, as I predicted.
»Microsoft Flight Gimme A Break

Been using it since it became available on MSDN on several machines. It takes about 10 minutes of actual use to get used to the differences. Doubtful any plummeting will happen. People will do what they always do - get the new OS when they get new hardware (and some pretty nifty hardware will be coming out for this OS) while corps will do their normal three year cycle, so they'll skip win8 and continue their slow grind to win7 (HP will be getting there THIS year, according to the handful of folks I know that still work there. Wow) and a smaller group of people will upgrade. Maybe more with the low upgrade price, but more is still not many.

Plummet was a bit extreme.

I believe 8 will be as successful on the PC especially corp PC as Vista.

I had no problem with Vista and 7 was basically Vista done properly.

Our company is in the process of deploying 7 to get rid of XP so we milk the OS for as long as possible.

Dave
--
I may have been born yesterday. But it wasn't at night.

Glen T

join:2003-11-03
BC
reply to kickass69

said by kickass69:

Once Stardock's Start8 comes out of beta though...it'll end up costing $4.99. This sets a bad precedent having to pay for features that were once part of the OS to have it work productively as it did before.

The precedent was already set with MS Office. You had to buy a third-party add-on to get the old menu structure back.

BTW, got an e-mail from one of our corporate clients (industrial) who was inquiring if our software was compatible with Win7. They are getting ready to upgrade from XP. This is typical of fortune 500 manufacturers that we deal with.

I predict that Win8 will be bypassed by the corporate world just like they bypassed Vista.


markofmayhem
Why not now?
Premium
join:2004-04-08
Pittsburgh, PA
kudos:5

1 recommendation

reply to JohnInSJ

said by Glen T:

said by dave:

Yeah, yeah, I get all that - that's why I said "there is a precision problem" or words to that effect.

What I'm talking about is the sheer ludditeism exhibited here, the notion that there can never be anything better than what we have today. This is not a claim that Windows 8 is better than Windows 7. I don't plan to upgrade existing systems myself.

My topic was 'I don't see why everyone assumes it's "keyboard and mouse" versus "touch screen"'.

The topic is if there is a benefit in Win 8 over Win 7. If we all agree that the interface formerly known as Metro is the main benefit,

We do not all agree. There is something deeply concerning with the malicious way advertising revenue is collected on tech sites in 2012. If you wish to make money, then you must repeat the same negativity, it FEEDS off of each other. Eventually, it dies off and truth emerges, sometimes it is too late (Vista for example, where people claimed it used more memory because Microsoft stopped reporting "Cached" memory as "Free" in XP and begain reported it as "USED" in Vista, in 7 it is reported as "Cached"... the utter stupidity on display was phenominal).

There is more to Windows 8 than Metro, unless limiting Windows 8 to Metro only helps funnel stupidity towards staying on topic through 7 2-paragraph pages to escalate ad-revenue on blogs and "tech" review sites. Then I agree, AdSense, Windows 8's only benefit is the infamous Metro.

said by JohnInSJ:

said by workablob:

But you are very correct. Windows 8 on the desktop is going to plummet like a stone just like Microsoft Flight did, as I predicted.
»Microsoft Flight Gimme A Break

Been using it since it became available on MSDN on several machines. It takes about 10 minutes of actual use to get used to the differences. Doubtful any plummeting will happen. People will do what they always do - get the new OS when they get new hardware (and some pretty nifty hardware will be coming out for this OS) while corps will do their normal three year cycle, so they'll skip win8 and continue their slow grind to win7 (HP will be getting there THIS year, according to the handful of folks I know that still work there. Wow) and a smaller group of people will upgrade. Maybe more with the low upgrade price, but more is still not many.

Just like every other Windows release, which EVERY SINGLE ONE was predicted to "flop", "bomb", "be remembered as the release that killed Microsoft" (don't believe me? look it up, from 1.0 to XP, from NT 4 to Windows 7; every release was the "worst in human history" leading up to release):

after a year or so, the single entity causing all of the hatred will not get advertising clicks/reads and new topics will emerge, some of them with positive queues, most likely focused on what was improved/upgraded/added under the hood of Windows 8 compared to previous versions.

Such as:

AppLocker
BitLocker
BranchCache
Connection Manager
Client Hyper V
eDrive
Security Auditing
Smart Cards
Folder Redirection, Offline Files, and Roaming User Profiles
Windows Power Shell
Windows To Go
More effecient multimedia
Smaller footprint = older equipment usable?
Anand on DirectX 11.1 and WDDM 1.2
WDDM 1.2 enhancements

Exhaustive, mind-blowing, link-athon for WDDM 1.2, GDXI 1.2

said by Wikipedia :

Windows 8 includes WDDM 1.2 and DXGI 1.2. New features were first previewed at the Windows BUILD conference and include performance improvements as well as support for stereoscopic 3D rendering and video playback.
Other major features include preemptive multitasking with finer granularity (DMA buffer, primitive, triangle, pixel, or instruction-level), reduced memory footprint, improved resource sharing, and faster timeout detection and recovery. 16-bit color surface formats (565, 5551, 4444) are mandatory in Windows 8, and Direct3D 11 Video supports YUV 4:4:4/4:2:2/4:2:0/4:1:1 video formats with 8, 10, and 16-bit precision, as well as 4 and 8-bit palettized formats.

Technet overview

Will Windows 8 break sales records? Probably not. Is it worth upgrading to? Is any OS, really... Will it be "the end of Microsoft"? Nope.

Do we really have to go through this every release? It is amazing the effort people will go through to duplicate past shadows of others forgotten through error and chicken little panic before them.
--
Show off that hardware: join Team Discovery and Team Helix


markofmayhem
Why not now?
Premium
join:2004-04-08
Pittsburgh, PA
kudos:5
reply to workablob

said by workablob:

Plummet was a bit extreme.

I believe 8 will be as successful on the PC especially corp PC as Vista.

I had no problem with Vista and 7 was basically Vista done properly.

Our company is in the process of deploying 7 to get rid of XP so we milk the OS for as long as possible.

Dave

I agree. 8 does have advanced deployment, volume, and manageability enhancements over past versions that may be very attractive. I would fully expect much settling of dust before reputable CIO's look at possibilities of upgrading, though. It may be possible that "9" is released before the cycle comes, much like 7 and Vista's proximity sealed Vista's fate in the corporate world.
--
Show off that hardware: join Team Discovery and Team Helix

Glen T

join:2003-11-03
BC

1 recommendation

reply to markofmayhem

said by markofmayhem:

There is something deeply concerning with the malicious way advertising revenue is collected on tech sites in 2012. If you wish to make money, then you must repeat the same negativity, it FEEDS off of each other.

Wow. That's the first time that anyone has accused me of being sponsored to post negative opinions on a forum about a product to boost forum traffic for advertisers. Wouldn't that be nice!

However, my opinions are my own. And I post here because I hope that MS, being so sensitive to how the market feels about their products, is paying someone to troll forums like this to gather opinions. I sure can't find the "Tell us what you REALLY think of Windows" button on MS websites.

As an ISV, we do regularly get promotional material from MS indicating that they want us to help MS "thrill and amaze" their users. This indicates that to me that MS doesn't understand the corporate world (which the ironically dominate) at all. Corporate users don't want to be "thrilled and amazed." They want the OS to get the hell out of their way and let them do their work.

I think MS envies Apple. They miss having people lining up on sidewalks at midnight like they did for Win 95. It's not enough for MS to dominate the corporate world. They want to be loved too.

I agree with you, that I think the future is something like Corning is promoting - dedicated embedded devices with transparent OSs that integrate seamlessly. God I hope so. I don't want to be spending my weekends applying MS updates to my vehicles and domestic appliances 10 years from now.


workablob

join:2004-06-09
Houston, TX
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to Glen T

said by Glen T:

said by kickass69:

Once Stardock's Start8 comes out of beta though...it'll end up costing $4.99. This sets a bad precedent having to pay for features that were once part of the OS to have it work productively as it did before.

The precedent was already set with MS Office. You had to buy a third-party add-on to get the old menu structure back.

BTW, got an e-mail from one of our corporate clients (industrial) who was inquiring if our software was compatible with Win7. They are getting ready to upgrade from XP. This is typical of fortune 500 manufacturers that we deal with.

I predict that Win8 will be bypassed by the corporate world just like they bypassed Vista.

Sounds eerily similar to my company. We have an office in Canada.

What software does your company vend?

Thanks,

David
--
I may have been born yesterday. But it wasn't at night.


markofmayhem
Why not now?
Premium
join:2004-04-08
Pittsburgh, PA
kudos:5
reply to Glen T

said by Glen T:

said by markofmayhem:

There is something deeply concerning with the malicious way advertising revenue is collected on tech sites in 2012. If you wish to make money, then you must repeat the same negativity, it FEEDS off of each other.

Wow. That's the first time that anyone has accused me of being sponsored to post negative opinions on a forum about a product to boost forum traffic for advertisers. Wouldn't that be nice!

I wasn't accusing you of being sponsored... you just happened to be the most recent post soundboarding the sponsored talking points

I receive promotional material from Microsoft, RedHat, Canonical, Oracle, Apple, etc. as well: they are all the same. Much different than the '90's, where they all had pictures of buildings either looking up at it or down from it: now it is colors and "amaze", "thrill", "excite", etc with clouds or cloud like colored wisps. All of them... it is comical. What is even more comical is to watch middle management, executive management, and MBA's wet their pants at the buzz words contained there-in. "We need profile managed deployment!"... Oh yeah?
--
Show off that hardware: join Team Discovery and Team Helix

Glen T

join:2003-11-03
BC
reply to workablob

said by workablob:

Sounds eerily similar to my company. We have an office in Canada. What software does your company vend?

Ours is a very vertical market. Chemical engineering simulation software, tools and services. Our primary market is pulp and paper, but we get into other water-based industries.


workablob

join:2004-06-09
Houston, TX
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Comcast

said by Glen T:

said by workablob:

Sounds eerily similar to my company. We have an office in Canada. What software does your company vend?

Ours is a very vertical market. Chemical engineering simulation software, tools and services. Our primary market is pulp and paper, but we get into other water-based industries.

Mmmmm Pulp. Arghlllll. (Picture Homer Simpson Drooling)

Dave
--
I may have been born yesterday. But it wasn't at night.

Glen T

join:2003-11-03
BC

said by workablob:

Mmmmm Pulp. Arghlllll.

One of our clients actually produce 'edible' wood pulp as a sausage filler for the EU market. A completely indigestible source of fibre.


workablob

join:2004-06-09
Houston, TX
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Comcast

said by Glen T:

said by workablob:

Mmmmm Pulp. Arghlllll.

One of our clients actually produce 'edible' wood pulp as a sausage filler for the EU market. A completely indigestible source of fibre.

Yep. It's in all kinds of stuff we eat.

Euell Gibbons was right!

Dave
--
I may have been born yesterday. But it wasn't at night.


btB

@rr.com
reply to Jan Janowski

Windows 8 was never going to be accepted on the corporate site no matter what simply because they are now only deploying Windows 7.

Anyway, here is another start menu alternative. This one is by IObit. Program is freeware and looks like Windows 7's start menu. It is still in beta though. I have tried it, and it seems okay. Hopefully, it is a little more polished when the final release is out.

»www.iobit.com/iobitstartmenu8.php



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to Jan Janowski

Its well known by now that there wont be any enhancements to Media Center in Windows 8. So anyone on Windows 7 now that uses Media Center would be making a lateral move going to Windows 8 Pro, plus the added expense of buying the Media Center pack. Although I have heard the Media Center add-on will be free from Oct 26 th to January 31 st.

Those who use Media Center and have Windows 8 Pro (RTM) now are keenly aware that the “add features" option will not allow you to obtain a key to install Media Center. Presumably keys will be available starting Oct 26 th.

I believe this feature still works in Windows 8 RP (with the public key) but not RTM (no keys).

So in other words you actually lose a feature,...for now.



Cartel
Premium
join:2006-09-13
Chilliwack, BC
kudos:2
reply to Jan Janowski

Windows 8 you can pin your favorite program with a booger!
Gotta love touch screen.



spewak
R.I.P Dadkins
Premium
join:2001-08-07
Elk Grove, CA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·SureWest Internet
reply to redxii

said by redxii:

My PC is not a phone or tablet.

There it is in a nutshell!
That UI "Metro" is NOT for desktops and only manages to annoy if not on a Tablet or touchscreen of some variant. I had it running and was not overly wowed by it.
--

Romney equals Epic Fail!

NefCanuck

join:2007-06-26
Mississauga, ON
reply to Jan Janowski

I'm cautiously optimistic regarding Win 8, but I already know that at least one of the programs that I rely on, will not be Win 8 compatible unless I pay to upgrade it to a version that will require an annual subscription fee (SAM Broadcaster)

Heck, I have no idea yet if my audio hardware will have Win 8 drivers, have to check that

Haven't checked my other core non MS software yet (ESET/ Macrium Reflect) but I have a bad feeling that Macrium is going to be another kick to the wallet (ESET allows for free upgrades which the license is in place and I'm good until 2013 there)

As to the interface, I'm a tablet / touchscreen fanatic, having only one useable hand makes using a mouse painfully slow (take hand away from keyboard, move mouse, repeat) versus the shorter distance between the keyboard and the screen, at least the way I have things set up. Using the touchscreen features in Win 7 and loving it so far.

Interesting times indeed..

NefCanuck



Michail
Premium
join:2000-08-02
Boynton Beach, FL
kudos:1
reply to spewak

said by spewak:

said by redxii:

My PC is not a phone or tablet.

There it is in a nutshell!
That UI "Metro" is NOT for desktops and only manages to annoy if not on a Tablet or touchscreen of some variant. I had it running and was not overly wowed by it.

Since the metro process seems to be crashing/broken on me now I'm realizing how important and integrated it is in Windows 8.

Glen T

join:2003-11-03
BC

When I can get a desk that looks like this, then touch computing will make a lot more sense to me.




Cartel
Premium
join:2006-09-13
Chilliwack, BC
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·Shaw
·TELUS
reply to Jan Janowski

Click on image.




Kramer
Premium,Mod
join:2000-08-03
Richmond, VA
kudos:2
reply to Jan Janowski

I really haven't seen anything about Windows 8 in itself that would convince me to upgrade from Windows 7, but I think that misses the whole point of Windows 8. Windows 8 is the first operating system that can make a tablet become a full replacement for a laptop or even a desktop. There is significant advantage to having your desktop, your tablet, your laptop and possibly your phone all using a similar interface. It just depends on how well MS ties all these devices together. I love the iPad but lets be realistic here.. IOS shuts the gates before the PC gets into its kingdom and that includes Apple PCs. Microsoft is trying something big and I hope they are successful. I'm more than willing to slap WIN8 on my PC if my next tablet purchase is going to a Microsoft driven product. I think there is a good possibility of me going in that direction.



Cartel
Premium
join:2006-09-13
Chilliwack, BC
kudos:2
reply to Jan Janowski

They should have editions of Windows like , gamer edition, tablet edition, etc.