Topic 'Re: PVR Drive Cycling' in forum 'Rogers' - dslreports.com

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 20:27:53 EDT

pmd posted : I did reply that since Rogers had pushed the updates I assumed they know the reason for the changes and why the drive was again on 24/7.

My (very) old LG recorder is totally off until it needs to record. Never wakes me up even when it turns on to record. I can't live with the 8300HD drive noise when I'm sleeping. I know the newer ones are quieter but are they really "quiet" in a quiet bedroom?

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 20:12:11 EDT

Hooter posted : If you email Cisco, they tell you to contact your ISP. I tried this with the firmware fiasco and got nowhere with Cisco. Pass the buck time! LOL!

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 19:43:24 EDT

pmd posted : Now that the immediate problems have been solved, please everyone stop posting your opinions about what Rogers "should" be doing or what you "think" is the problem. It's patently obvious by now Rogers doesn't respond unless they have something to announce (I followed only 3 during the current fiasco and Rogers made announcements in all but their own forum!). Oh and my latest tweet to @reogershelp why the drives need to be on 24/7 got "ask the manufacturer".

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 11:34:15 EDT

elitefx posted : This is the problem with Rogers. They're going backwards all the time. We had STBs back in the '70s.

The object of the game is to eliminate peripherals and consolidate the hardware required into a single unit eg: the television/HTPC/Media Center itself. This requires far less power consumption and more end user control over the device.

Figures Rogers will drag us kicking and screaming back to the stone age............

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 10:55:24 EDT

puzz1ed posted :

said by LeadFoot:

These things were designed in an era when energy efficiency was not that important.

There were no regulations or no Energy Star testing and the boxes were most likely designed as cheaply as possible. Cable companies wouldn't care since it's the consumer that's paying the hidden electricity costs. Set top boxes are ubiquitous now so there is more concern about power. Two STBs can use as much power as a fridge.

»www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fus···_code=ST

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 17:03:05 EDT

LeadFoot posted : Resent firmware versions:
Oct 2010 – 1.92.15.2 – HSUD started
May 2011 – 1.92.16.101 – HDD running 24/7
Sep 2012 – 1.93.14.1 – HSUD returned
Oct 2012 – 1.93.15.1 – HDD running 24/7 again

Although some may think running the HDD 24/7 is a waste of energy, it is only a small percentage of the PVR power consumption (around 5 watts).

Non-scientific test: While looking at the front of your PVR after it’s been turned off for at least a couple of hours, run your hand over its top. The RHS (above the HDD) is not as warm as the centre (above the CPU) or the LHS (above the power supply).

Other PVR manufactures like Motorola have had there HDDs running 24/7 for years with no issue.

These things were designed in an era when energy efficiency was not that important.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 11:48:35 EDT

anon posted : The HD was always left spinning in the firmware before 1.93.14.1 (the firmware that caused all the latest HSUD problems).

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 11:40:01 EDT

anon posted : I am not aware that there is more than one off state on the 8300 (although I could be wrong). When I say "off" I mean the PVR still has power coming from the wall but the front 'power switch' or remote power switch has been pressed so that it is not 'on' [it's not outputting anything to the TV].

Since the unit still has power and has timers for recording, I don't see the need to have the hard drive spinning as well. The hard drive is doing nothing of value at that point. I can understand that there may be a need at times for the HD to run [for updating, etc], so it should power up then. Obviously no where near as much as it was with the recent problems. But I feel the hard drive should not spin unless there is a reason. My guess would be that the typical PVR sits 'off' much more than it does on. So spin it up when it needs to record, needs updating or when the unit is powered on for watching TV. Have it not spinning all the rest of the time.

Having had the 8300 for years, I have never been aware of the HD spinning constantly with the until 'off' until this most recent update.

Am I wrong?

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Tue, 30 Oct 2012 15:54:38 EDT

elitefx posted :

said by bwiz2k3 :

I am fine with it running when the PVR is on, but I see zero need for it to be running when the PVR is off, that is just wasteful and not needed.

Do you mean "off" as in idle mode waiting to record a scheduled show OR "off" as in the unit itself being powered off?

IMHO, if it's the former, that would make sense having the HDD spin (a built in timer would make more sense) BUT if it's the latter, that would be a serious design issue/flaw, not to mention, a fire hazard...HDDs have been known to go up in smoke from overheating issues.........Rare, but apparently it does happen.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Tue, 30 Oct 2012 13:14:36 EDT

anon posted : So do you leave all the lights on in your house for the same reason?

Do you leave your car idling constantly for the same reason?

The HD in the PVR never ran 24/7 before and everything was just fine. I am fine with it running when the PVR is on, but I see zero need for it to be running when the PVR is off, that is just wasteful and not needed. I am sure the average user of a PVR does not turn it on and off frequently during a typical day so I am sure the HD will survive that type of normal on/off use.

Yes the power draw is not that great, but it is still unnecessary to run it 24/7.

Not to mention the fact that the HD spinning 24/7 does make noise. In a quiet bedroom at night it is certainly noticeable.

I am fairly sure this was the low road in trying to fix the spin up/down issue and the fact that possibly running it all the time is not a bad thing from the HDs perspective, that happens to be an unintended by-product.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Mon, 29 Oct 2012 14:08:18 EDT

mozerd posted : The drive should not SLEEP or spin down while the PVR is powered up. As to WHY, you would need to ask CISCO .... Rogers will have no clue of whatsoever nature regardless of what Arthur may want to Chim in and state.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Mon, 29 Oct 2012 14:00:22 EDT

puzz1ed posted : I agree too but there has been no explanation why, if the PVR is off and not actively recording, does it need to access the hard drive with any frequency? Certainly this could have been better designed. Perhaps the drive would need to wake up for infrequent housekeeping tasks but nothing like what has been happening recently.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Mon, 29 Oct 2012 13:24:05 EDT

elitefx posted : IMHO the HDD spinning 24/7 shouldn't be an issue. WD or Seagate=6 to 8 watts power draw and 50,000 hrs mtbf minimum lifespan.

said by mozerd:

.....the HD were designed and built for constant usage. When it starts and stops like its been doing the HD will fail much faster.

Agreed 1000%

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Mon, 29 Oct 2012 13:22:51 EDT

mozerd posted :

said by bwiz2k3 :

We can't fix the real problem so we'll just leave it running all the time.

FYI and FEI it's much better to have the hard drive running 24/7 than spin down and restart each time it needs to read/write --- the HD were designed and built for constant usage. When it starts and stops like its been doing the HD will fail much faster.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Mon, 29 Oct 2012 12:59:49 EDT

anon posted : I know the spin up/down was annoying and I am happy there was some kind of fix, but does no one have an issue with the fact that the hard drive now runs 24/7?

Seems like a pretty band-aid type solution to me.

We can't fix the real problem so we'll just leave it running all the time.

WTF?

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Sun, 28 Oct 2012 21:07:28 EDT

anon posted : Just notice today the cycling has stopped. Another thing that was corrected - when watching a recorded program and clicking the list button it goes directly back to the proper program listing instead of going to the beginning of the list.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 19:32:50 EDT

avernar posted : Can tech support push the firmware to a unit? I still don't have the fixed one.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 14:01:31 EDT

HiVolt posted : Seems to show all 6 days ahead for me. Maybe it didnt properly download the IPG? I'd power cycle the box maybe.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:50:43 EDT

metalhawk posted :

said by pmd:

Our fix arrived in rural Ottawa. The IPG still shows descriptions only for today/tomorrow. After that you have to hit INFO - the descriptions are not saved if you return to that day/time you have to do it again.

Actually, it shows the information for today, tomorrow, and 6 days from now (the last available day in the guide). But the other 3 days in between have no information.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:31:31 EDT

pmd posted : Our fix arrived in rural Ottawa. The IPG still shows descriptions only for today/tomorrow. After that you have to hit INFO - the descriptions are not saved if you return to that day/time you have to do it again.
--
Computing 46 years and still get stumped by tech problems.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 09:57:46 EDT

Warhorse posted : Evidently Ottawa has received the fix as well. Regardless, this whole situation could have been avoided if the proper approach as indicated in my earlier bleat had been followed. Also, why not keep subscribers informed as to problems and delays? Maybe fewer bad feelings would have been generated if customers knew what was going on.

Now if Rogers would only fix their iPod App so that saves don't keep being listed when in fact they already have been deleted from the PVR I might start to respect their technical capabilities!!!

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 09:26:22 EDT

HiVolt posted : All is well here, no more spin up/spin down.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 09:18:06 EDT

anon posted : Got the update in Ottawa this morning. Everything seems to be working fine - hd stays on all the time now. At least I don't have to unplug my box every night.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 01:12:23 EDT

metalhawk posted :

said by HiVolt:

You know, I always wondered this, Why the PVR can't have "folders" for shows... I dont have that many, but always having to scroll down to find what was recently recorded is crappy... At least it should be an option, to start at top or view last recorded... I don't know about you, but I tend to want to watch what was recorded most recently.

You could scroll up and after 3 clicks you would be at your latest recorded show. ;)

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Wed, 24 Oct 2012 21:40:42 EDT

HiVolt posted : It appears I have the new Sara 1.93.15.1. Unfortunately ive been watching stuff, but i'll be done shortly and will see if the problem is fixed.

You can also get to the diag screen from your remote... Hold the pause button on the remote for 10 seconds until the mail icon appears on your box, then press the page up button to scroll.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Wed, 24 Oct 2012 20:46:03 EDT

anon posted : Hates off to everyone for calling Rogers, complaining, elevating the complaints and not giving up. Recent history tells us that this could have taken a lot longer to get fixed.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Wed, 24 Oct 2012 16:12:02 EDT

pmd posted : New firmware is great news. Does anyone in Ottawa have it yet?

View version of SA8300HD (plugged in):
On the front panel
1. Press & hold the SELECT button until the "mail" symbol flashes.
2. Press INFO button. Information page 1 will display.
3. Press the Volume+/- button to view other pages.
Page #17 has the SARA version
1.93.14.1 September
1.93.15.1 October
--
Computing 46 years and still get stumped by tech problems.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Wed, 24 Oct 2012 14:35:39 EDT

HiVolt posted :

said by Rogers_Chris:

I should add that this update addresses the following:

1. Hard Disk Spin Up Down
2. For a future show, instead of ‘record show’, IPG shows ‘tune to this channel’
3. List always defaults back to the top/beginning of the recorded show list, instead of last recording

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Wed, 24 Oct 2012 14:33:37 EDT

Rogers_Chris posted : I should add that this update addresses the following:

1. Hard Disk Spin Up Down
2. For a future show, instead of ‘record show’, IPG shows ‘tune to this channel’
3. List always defaults back to the top/beginning of the recorded show list, instead of last recording

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Wed, 24 Oct 2012 14:31:29 EDT

HiVolt posted : LOL... :D

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Wed, 24 Oct 2012 14:29:12 EDT

technocar2 posted :

said by HiVolt:

said by technocar2:

This is for SA 8300HD?

Did you even read his reply? :)

lol I did but I replied too quickly.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Wed, 24 Oct 2012 14:20:27 EDT

HiVolt posted :

said by technocar2:

This is for SA 8300HD?

Did you even read his reply? :)

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Wed, 24 Oct 2012 14:18:54 EDT

technocar2 posted :

said by Rogers_Chris:

Hi Everyone. Once again, we’d like to thank you for your patience while the software update for the 8300HD PVR was being tested for deployment. We’re happy to report that the update began rolling out last night and will be completed within the next 10-12 days.

This is for SA 8300HD and the newer STBs?

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Wed, 24 Oct 2012 14:18:51 EDT

HiVolt posted :

said by Rogers_Chris:

Well if this is indeed the fix, then I must say I'm impressed with how fast Rogers fixed it this time around...

It still doesn't excuse the fact that they don't test the firmware enough to spot such a glaring flaw, especially that it was a hot issue before...
--

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Wed, 24 Oct 2012 14:16:03 EDT

Rogers_Chris posted : Hi Everyone. Once again, we’d like to thank you for your patience while the software update for the 8300HD PVR was being tested for deployment. We’re happy to report that the update began rolling out last night and will be completed within the next 10-12 days.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Wed, 24 Oct 2012 10:59:27 EDT

elitefx posted : I think Rogers did something to the entire network overnite. My D3 Express was running like a dog recently but this morning:

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Wed, 24 Oct 2012 10:32:11 EDT

HiVolt posted :

said by Hooter:

Both of our boxes rebooted over night. Another new SARA version was pushed out - 1.93.15.1. Too early to tell if it provides fixes for the last update - but just thought I would provide a heads up this morning!

Seems my 8300HD rebooted overnight too, it was on Channel 01.

I'll check the firmware when I get home. I'm also in Scarborough.
--

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Wed, 24 Oct 2012 06:10:37 EDT

Hooter posted : Both of our boxes rebooted over night. Another new SARA version was pushed out - 1.93.15.1. Too early to tell if it provides fixes for the last update - but just thought I would provide a heads up this morning!

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Sun, 21 Oct 2012 20:06:45 EDT

avernar posted : I wish the CRCT had the intestinal fortitude to mandate CableCard. Ah well. Back to reality. Sigh.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Sun, 21 Oct 2012 19:30:24 EDT

decx posted : I'm not sure this would be a good application of SSDs. When the the STB is on the PVR is constantly buffering stream from the channel on which it is tuned this would put excessive write/erase cycles on the SSD. And while it would be silent and save some power, the STB wouldn't benefit from any performance gain switching to SSD.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Sun, 21 Oct 2012 19:18:57 EDT

HiVolt posted : With SSD's being cheap now, I wonder if a SATA SSD would work with a SATA/IDE converter? It'd be silent, and use less power no matter what Rogers did with their firmware...

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Sun, 21 Oct 2012 13:04:24 EDT

sbrook posted : Rogers treat customers as Revenue Units ... The fact that Rogers is supposed to provide service is a fact that they conveniently overlook to maximize revenue.

Sadly, that's the way with most Corporations. Maximizing the remuneration for the officers of the company and maximizing shareholder return is what it's all about. It's the modern corporate morality (immorality) after all, officers and boards of corporations get tossed on their ears if they don't maximize returns. It's fiduciary responsibility by being morally irresponsible. Strangely socially and morally responsible companies can generate fiduciary responsibility. The reverse is not necessarily true, although fiduciary success can allow a company to show social responsibility.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Sun, 21 Oct 2012 12:09:32 EDT

Warhorse posted : This has definitely gone on long enough!!! As an engineer, I sincerely wonder if Rogers has anyone in their Tech Dept. who has the foggiest notion on how upgrades/firmware changes should be made so that the customer is kept in the loop and for the minimum period of disruption!

From my engineering experience (38 years), what should occur is an in-house test period of sufficient depth to proof the firmware upgrade. Then there should be a BETA trial on a sufficient number of volunteers to ensure everything is working OK. Finally, all customers should be advised what is to be done, and a feedback link provided if the customer has problems to report.

As this is the second time this problem has occurred, it seems Rogers has not learned from the experience and customers are still being treated with total disrespect!!! Customers pay for service and many purchased the PVR.

I sincerely feel a class action suit should be initiated ASAP! Maybe that would wake up "the powers that be but don't care" when their money is involved!!!

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Sun, 21 Oct 2012 06:51:09 EDT

LeadFoot posted : The answer is for Rogers/Cisco to fix the SARA firmware and stop shutting off the hard drive. Other makes of PVRs like Motorola keep the drive spinning 24/7 as does the Cisco 8642 with the newest firmware. It's been decades since I've done any programing, but it could be as simple as a 1 bit change in the code. They need to find the routine that's turning the drive off and change it. This is not rocket science.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Sat, 20 Oct 2012 17:15:18 EDT

decx posted : True but I'm not sure whether it'll fit inside the 8300 so I can't recommend that as a solution.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Sat, 20 Oct 2012 16:58:08 EDT

sbrook posted : anyway, you can always pick up a $10 sata/pata convertor.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Sat, 20 Oct 2012 15:06:52 EDT

decx posted :
It's not a system dealing with raw uncompressed HD or a highly used server serving numerous streams to many users. The 8300 just records a maximum of 2 compressed streams and doesn't even have WHPVR capability an old slow PATA drive has far more than enough read/write performance for the job.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Sat, 20 Oct 2012 11:31:04 EDT

elitefx posted :

said by LeadFoot:

At that time IDE drives were cheap and plentiful. That's not the case now.

For a device of this nature to be based on an obsolete IDE PATA Hard Drive platform is inexcusable. The hard drive capability is the very reason for the PVR's existence.

Taking the high PVR retail price factor into consideration, common sense says they would want the very latest SATA 3 technology incorporated into newer systems. SATA 2 at the very least for older units...........I mean, recording/data writing speed alone would be a prerequisite factor in capturing the higher framerates of HD video........... :)

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Sat, 20 Oct 2012 11:12:16 EDT

LeadFoot posted : In 2010 when this cycling first started we had 2 PVRs purchased at the same time. The one I was using, I kept running by setting wake-up timers and dummy recordings. The one my son was using was allowed to cycle on and off when powered off. After about 3 months of cycling the drive failed. I contacted Western Digital Engineering and they said that cycling the drive that frequently would likely shorten the drive's life. Using the 50,000 cycle number, if your PVR was powered off and cycling every 5 minutes for 16 hours a day, it would only take 261 day to reach 50,000 (12 cycles per hour X 16 hours per day X 261 days = 50,112 cycles). I think it's the high frequency not the total number of cycles that aggregates the problem. I blame Rogers/Cisco for the failure of my son's drive. At that time IDE drives were cheap and plentiful. That's not the case now.

Re: PVR Drive Cycling

Sat, 20 Oct 2012 10:11:37 EDT

elitefx posted : Has anyone ever actually had a drive fail because of the cycling? I know drives are supposed to be good for 50,000 power cycles and I also know newer drives park the recording heads and spin down when not in use even though they are still under power.

My main rig does the same thing in AHCI mode. My 2 internal Seagate 1TB storage drives hibernate when not in use. When I access them I hear the "click click" of the heads unlocking and the drives spinning up. Of course my main Mushkin Chronos SSD system drive is dead silent and always operational.

Point being, this could be the nature of the beast when using disk drives these days and have little to do with the actual PVR design or firmware itself...........IMHO Any drive failure could be attributed to a drive not performing to manufacturer design specs.

I've had to RMA 4 Hard Drives in the past 5-7 years both Seagate and WD out of about 15 drives purchased new.