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xdrag

join:2005-02-18
North York, ON

4 edits
reply to TSI Marc

Re: TekSavvy - glorified reseller, not ISP

said by TSI Marc:

This is a complicated issue.

We don't get anything from any incumbent other than maintenance or downtime on links that we are explicitly paying for. If something is going on in Toronto and we have 100 users affected. We hear about it when they all call us.

The issue is that for 100 users we're going to notify thousands and thousands of people even though this has nothing to do with them.

This is what we've been doing. We have no way to know how many users are actually affected. With Bell and Rogers in particular since we have so many users with them, when there is any outage almost anywhere, we hear about it.

What's the right thing to do?

Marc, on the TSI website, you need to have a section to post any suspected network downtimes. Twitter, RSS or anything.

If you think there's a downtime or congestion in an area. It wouldn't hurt to post it. When those who are affected by these unforeseen problems, they can see on your website and be like "oh, maybe that's why my connection is sucking".

i.e. comstock POI is being upgraded - users in the scarborough area may experience network issues

said by OneWorld9:

Service advisories are common practise, and any ISP *should* be able to provide them. What information Rogers does or does not provide is between TekSavvy and Rogers - they need to get that information to properly support their customers.

I'm fully cognizant that Rogers doesn't want to change things. As TSI Marc has pointed out, though, that has to change. TekSavvy and other TPIAs cannot operate this way if they want to be successful as ISPs. You said it yourself - if TekSavvy cannot offer services they promised to provide, customers will favour Rogers and will leave. At the end of the day, TPIAs will become a niche-market provider - servicing customers who hope that "one day" things will change, or are OK getting subpar service for a bit of cost savings - if they cannot surpass these obstacles.

Regardless who supplies TekSavvy with the ability to service customers as an ISP, it is TekSavvy's responsibility to provide support. If that support is not provided, and they end not providing the service and/or needlessly wasting their customers' time, it's up to TekSavvy to make things right. If you read my latest posts, TekSavvy agrees, and is working towards that.

Great theoretical points. you're saying we should change this and all these problems. but How? you've pointed out all the problems but what's going to happen between here and there. How practical are all these changes, how hard/easy will it be to implement, how will we execute this, how do we find support, how much will it cost.

It's like saying, if we had fusion power, it could solve the problem of all our energy needs. How do you get fusion power?

Someone people think they have great ideas (sometimes they are) but in reality they're either terrible or not plausible to execute - dragon's den. In reality, you need to pick a few gems and run away with them.

The biggest need at the moment is consumer education. Most people have NO clue to what's going on and only blame TSI as their sole source of woes. If people became self-educated on the issue between TSI's arm-lock with rogers and bell, there would be more action. The prime example is UBB. People heard about it, learned about it and took action against it.

»openmedia.ca was suppose to do this, but it's clearly not working. Bell and Rogers own all the media outlets in canada so unless you start a riot in DT, most of this will fall on deaf ears


NightMayor

join:2010-04-28
York, ON
reply to Anon

Sure, we'll say OP was overdramatic, but I'm pretty sure any of us would be angry if we had sub-par internet for more than two months with basically no answer from your ISP. Nowhere does it say on ads and when you sign up (from what I recall from way back when) was there a mention that if a severe problem is being experienced, it may take a while to solve it due to business constraints. There will be angry people because of this, and many other issues as well. And yes, this forum isn't a call centre, but there will always be angry people no matter what.

If you want to help other people you need to acknowledge some will be angry, and they have every right to be if it is a legit reason. People are different, they vent in different ways. It's obvious that when a situation like this comes you'd want the person to calm down and not attack their opinion/situation right off the batt. If you feel a need to refute one of their points then by all means go ahead, but it has to also be in a calm manner. There's no way you can solve a problem if both sides are angry. That's why I suggest people leave if they insist on saying something along the lines of, "If you liked Rogers, leave now and STFU." That doesn't help the customer since you have no clue if the person is able to do so, and that doesn't help Teksavvy since they've just lost a customer. Things have calmed down a bit and are getting looked at properly so there's no need for that extra drama, from anyone here.

Also I see no reason why not an "atom bomb" should be dropped and be left alone. The leaving alone part or fading of a thread should mean that a solution is (trying to be) found. If you keep reading the first post then ignore TSI Marc and and OP's posts later on, of course you'd be mad.

In addition, OP brought up the topic of there being problems and everyone here agrees to a certain degree. It's the cause of these problems that many people disagree with. To me, that's worthy of discussion so the thread hasn't gone totally off topic.

I'm also against censorship of threads. It would look terrible on Teksavvy if a new person comes in these forums and they see threads being censored then they start to wonder why.



NightMayor

join:2010-04-28
York, ON

1 edit
reply to xdrag

said by xdrag:

said by TSI Marc:

This is a complicated issue.

We don't get anything from any incumbent other than maintenance or downtime on links that we are explicitly paying for. If something is going on in Toronto and we have 100 users affected. We hear about it when they all call us.

The issue is that for 100 users we're going to notify thousands and thousands of people even though this has nothing to do with them.

This is what we've been doing. We have no way to know how many users are actually affected. With Bell and Rogers in particular since we have so many users with them, when there is any outage almost anywhere, we hear about it.

What's the right thing to do?

Marc, on the TSI website, you need to have a section to post any suspected network downtimes. Twitter, RSS or anything.

If you think there's a downtime or congestion in an area. It wouldn't hurt to post it. When those who are affected by these unforeseen problems, they can see on your website and be like "oh, maybe that's why my connection is sucking".

i.e. comstock POI is being upgraded - users in the scarborough area may experience network issues

I agree, there needs to be something there on the website with suspected downtimes. And like you said it could be anything more. Right now as far as I know we only have advisories on the phone like when you call Teksavvy there may be a message right off where it says which POI has problems.

I think a map would be good, like Toronto hydro's, since not everyone knows about POIs. Red could mean confirmed disturbance, yellow could mean suspected, and green could mean normal.

said by xdrag:

The biggest need at the moment is consumer education. Most people have NO clue to what's going on and only blame TSI as their sole source of woes. If people became self-educated on the issue between TSI's arm-lock with rogers and bell, there would be more action. The prime example is UBB. People heard about it, learned about it and took action against it.

»openmedia.ca was suppose to do this, but it's clearly not working. Bell and Rogers own all the media outlets in canada so unless you start a riot in DT, most of this will fall on deaf ears

I also agree with this. Communication is always key. I think the problem though is that the general public thought just because UBB is gone all our internet problems are solved. So yeah, there needs to be another uprising of sorts, rioting is a little extreme IMHO.


QuantumPimp

join:2012-02-19
Reviews:
·voip.ms
reply to The Mongoose

said by The Mongoose:

They absolutely should not make this a priority. Given that it would involve a massive and probably unwinnable legal fight to get the CRTC to force Rogers to provide such tools, I'd rather they kept the money and maintain their low prices.

Agreed. I often wonder what would happen if customers successfully deluge the CRTC with complaints and thus force a change to service level agreements. Does this automatically mean even more money and power to the incumbents? I'd rather trust TSI to apply pressure, when required, to enhance their product as they see fit.


BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET

said by QuantumPimp:

said by The Mongoose:

They absolutely should not make this a priority. Given that it would involve a massive and probably unwinnable legal fight to get the CRTC to force Rogers to provide such tools, I'd rather they kept the money and maintain their low prices.

Agreed. I often wonder what would happen if customers successfully deluge the CRTC with complaints and thus force a change to service level agreements. Does this automatically mean even more money and power to the incumbents? I'd rather trust TSI to apply pressure, when required, to enhance their product as they see fit.

Now, being a couple thousand miles outside of TSI's service area, I can't say with any level of certainty that they're doing a good job of this, but I will say this: I've followed TSI for the last 7 years or so; should I ever find myself within their service area for an extended period of time, they will have my business. Everything I've read in these forums seems to indicate that they're doing an excellent job in the face of unreasonable suppliers (who are only so because they are also competitors).

To put things into perspective, go into any other ISP's forum here and count the complaint threads. Now, divide those numbers by the most reasonable estimate of the number of subscribers for each ISP you can find, to get a percentage of users who complain here. Where does TSI fall in that list? Last time I did this compared to the ISPs I've used personally, they were at the bottom of the list, lowest percentage of complaints; given that they're probably the ISP with the highest percentage of DSLR users out of the ISPs I compared (AT&T, Cox, and Comcast, 3 US ISPs, though I'm sure anyone here already knows that). That's farkin' impressive.


TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5
reply to QuantumPimp

Welcome to Dystopia

I'm in favor of going to war with the CRTC and the big incumbents, and get the rest of the country embroiled in a huge ass legal fight all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada to break our LAST MILE Infrastructure AWAY from the dastardly Incumbents.

It NEEDS to be DONE! Before that can happen a catalyst has to come to enact such upheaval. Once thats happened successfully then a Last Mile Governing body can be established to oversee and manage this infrastructure for the good of ALL.

Right now, I don't forsee anything of this nature happening because the majority of users out there either don't know any better, or just plain don't care. For now we have to live with it. Like it or not; and make do with what we do have for the interim.

Dystopia: Coming soon to a reality near you!
News Flash: Its allready here!

--
You see there is only one constant. One universal. It is the only real truth. Causality. Action, reaction. Cause and effect.
Twitter:Merv Chat:irc.teksavvy.ca



NytOwl

join:2012-09-27
canada
reply to NightMayor

Re: TekSavvy - glorified reseller, not ISP

Right now as far as I know we only have advisories on the phone like when you call Teksavvy there may be a message right off where it says which POI has problems.

I think a map would be good, like Toronto hydro's, since not everyone knows about POIs. Red could mean confirmed disturbance, yellow could mean suspected, and green could mean normal.
Great points here.

I heavily dislike not being advised about a known problem until I pick up the phone to hear an automated message telling me so. It would be a lot easier for TekSavvy to publish these known issues, as they become known, on a "Network Status" page of their website, and/or via Twitter to their followers. Ditto for Facebook. We are in the age of social media, after all. Yes, there is this forum, which is very useful, but they'd reach far more clients via other means.

Separate of that, I can't help but to have some sympathy for TekSavvy here.

For a few years, I worked for Primus Canada, whose DSL service (among other types of connections) operates mostly at Bell's mercy. Many-a-night would there suddenly be a surge of calls coming in, reporting issues in a particular area. It wasn't until some time would pass that we'd learn it was due to maintenance on Bell's end that we had zero notice or control of. Customers were screaming at us while my employer was not at fault in any way. The irony is that some of those clients had just switched to Primus from Bell, to get away from the headaches that they had gone through with Bell. Surprise!! ... At the end of the day they were still saving money, though.

Side note [& rant]: virtually all of us who have worked in ISP support can certainly recall [business] customers who are yelling that they're losing hundreds of dollars every hour that their Internet is down, while they solely rely on one single basic DSL connection. ...Dude. Get a backup/secondary connection. And get off my phone.

My 2¢.

OneWorld9

join:2010-12-09
East York, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to sbrook

said by sbrook:

It's time you got that idea out of your head (of being a Rogers reseller). That they have to pay Rogers or Bell to get from their network to you is the limit of Rogers involvement. A reseller would be Rogers from end to end.

I oversimplified TSI to a "reseller" to point out that the service is comparable to one, since many of the issues related to support are in Rogers' hands, and they have to reach out to Rogers to get things done - I totally understand they are a "hybrid". The point is they have a long way to go, in my mind, before they compare with the level of reliability and support I received when I was with Rogers. What good is it that you can talk to someone locally, who is fluent in English, if they can't resolve your issue? I don't call TekSavvy to chat with someone. I'm also not going to debate why that is - I do agree a lot of this is Rogers' fault. However, I'd like to see TekSavvy get to that level of reliability / support and even better, if at all possible. Higher costs aside, my connection *was* better with Rogers - for *several years*. Downtime was infrequent, and usually a matter of hours (never longer than a couple of days), and I only had a slow speed issue (lasting long enough to warrant support) *once* - it was quickly repaired by a tech putting a filter on my cable, because the signal was too strong. This is exactly the same connection (I have been at this address a long time) that I'm using with TekSavvy - when I switched, no tech came out to install anything. However, in the past less than two years, there have been numerous support-related issues / headaches.

As I stated in my first post, the reason I switched to TekSavvy was primarily cost related - specifically, related to caps and UBB - and the reviews suggesting that TekSavvy was a "better ISP".

I do agree the incumbents shouldn't have so much control over the "last mile", and they shouldn't be allowed to charge such high prices. However, we need to be clear about this - if TekSavvy is giving us these great deals at the expense of support, then people need to be informed of this and make their decision of which ISP to go with when they are informed. I joined TekSavvy with the impression it was "better" than the incumbents. My experience shows otherwise. TekSavvy's marketing suggests they are "different, in a good way". I suppose that depends on your definition of "good". I don't agree that "good" includes subpar service. I'm paying less, but I didn't agree to pay less to get an unrealiable connection and no real support. I think everyone deserves to know the truth about the service they can expect.

Is it nice that the CEO and staff talk to us in a forum? Of course it is. Will talking with the ISP actually make the service better? Time will tell.

OneWorld9

join:2010-12-09
East York, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to BronsCon

said by BronsCon:

I think you misread. I never suggested that your issue was related to internal wiring.

Fair enough. However, my suggestions are based on the issues I am personally experiencing, and my overall understanding of what an ideal ISP would do. I can see you're talking about overall support, and I do agree TekSavvy does have practical limitations to what they can support. However, if there is an issue with the network (as it appears there may indeed be in my case, so one can assume others as well - am I the only TekSavvy customer in my area?), then this definitely falls in TekSavvy's area of responsibility.

I agree with your other points.

said by BronsCon:

That said, yes, it does sound from your description (and everything thus far in this thread) to be a network issue.

Thank you - this is my point. If it's a network issue, TekSavvy needs to deal with it. Two months later, it's still not clear what the problem is and it's not resolved.

said by BronsCon:

Regarding the customer-based tools you suggest, from where do you propose these tools gather the plethora of data that is available from the ISP-facing interface of the customer's modem (and from the head-end), that the customer-facing interface does not provide access to? I'm just curious, how do you figure such a tool would improve the situation and if it's such a great idea, why does no other ISP use such a tool?

I'll assume you're asking with an open mind, and not simply to refute the idea, so I'll try to be as clear as I can about this.

Throughout the past two months of troubleshooting my issue with TekSavvy, they requested I submit various logs to them, including ping, tracert, etc. Each time, gathering those logs took me approx. 45 mins. or longer. I am well-versed on how to run these DOS commands and gather the logs. If this is what TekSavvy requires to open tickets with Rogers for support, all of this could have been automated. This is the very minimum TekSavvy could do - take responsibility for gathering this information, and not rely on a customer (whose level of technical knowledge will vary greatly) to do that for them. I do agree that these kinds of tools are not ideal, compared to the tools that Rogers techs have and should be available to TekSavvy. However, given these limitations, it should not be be the responsibility of the customer to gather all this information which TekSavvy could easily do themselves.

I am not an ISP network tech, so I don't know how far TekSavvy could develop the customer-based tools, but I do know the support experience could be greatly improved. The DSLr Line Monitor is another example - not ideal, but at least we have a clear idea now of when packet loss is happening. It took a member of the DSLr to suggest setting this up. Why didn't TekSavvy suggest this from Day 1 of my current issue? Why is the onus on the customer to solve his/her own problems? My point is simple - TekSavvy needs to take responsibility for ensuring a service they provide works. They cannot see the Rogers side of things, so they rely on the customer to advise them. I think they could do a lot to make and/or implement customer-based tools that would advise them without the customer getting directly involved.

Both Rogers and Bell provide software with their service. One of the things the software does is assist in monitoring / troubleshooting your connection. Although I personally choose not to install that software, I think if the software is created with a high level of professionalism (which TekSavvy, as an ISP, should be able to accomplish) then it should be made available to TekSavvy customers as well. At the very least, if there's a connection problem and TekSavvy needs to gather data from the customer's end (which they do need to do at present, since they don't have access to the incumbents tools), they can suggest the customer install / use their provided software tools. I've already suggested this to TekSavvy, and TSI David agrees this would be very helpful - at the very least, they can automate their log-gathering with a batch file. I think they could do much better than that, though.

said by BronsCon:

I then laid out the cons of the second option (the con of the first being paying more and getting less) and pointed out that if people want to enact change they need to suck it up and deal with the bully's temper tantrums when they choose the second option. You are absolutely correct, however, in your statement that people in general won't do this.

Therein lies the essence of my thread in the first place. If customers will not accept a subpar service, it needs to change. Those who come to TekSavvy must be fully apprised that they are choosing TekSavvy, with all its disadvantages, to support this cause. TekSavvy's marketing does not in one bit suggest this - it says "We are committed to giving our customers the best service possible". Where's that "best service"? I don't see it yet. I feel it's very important for a company to be who they say they are. If TekSavvy's approach is to differentiate themselves from the incumbents by saying they are "honest", and "different, in a good way", and they provide the "best service" ... that's exactly what they need to do.

said by BronsCon:

And yes, I do know that TekSavvy generally agrees that it's on them to make it right; however, it's not within the realm of possibility for them to do so monetarily, as it seemed you may have been suggesting, and still stay in business to support the majority of their customer base who don't have issues. It's reasonable to expect someone to face the fact that the service they provide to the many who don't want a refund (no issues, or issues resolved without incident) outweighs the benefit to them of providing such a refund to keep one customer. It's an unfortunate fact, but it is a fact.

You seem to be fairly reasonable in your discussions, so again, I'm going to be very frank. I disagree. TekSavvy is a business, like any other ... a business, by definition, exists to make a profit. If TekSavvy cannot run a business model that makes a profit, and at the same time provide all the great things they promise their customers they will provide, then that's a mistake on their part. Alternatively, if they are just doing this for the "cause" of making changes in Canada, wonderful - in that case, they would need to be prepared to sustain a loss and compensate any customers who they didn't provide the service the customer signed up for. When they also go so far as to ask the customer to waste a lot of time performing troubleshooting when they themselves have not ruled out a network issue (which is their responsibility), they do indeed need to make things right. Whatever losses they may incur as a result, that's solely because of their current processes and procedures. If they want someone like myself to troubleshoot for them, they can put me on their payroll.

I'm not disputing it's a terrible situation for any TPIA to be in. However, they clearly want to compete with the incumbents as a "better service". I joined TekSavvy with this impression. My experience being otherwise, I'm sharing that it isn't (which some people have appreciated). They have offered to make things right, so I'm giving them that chance.

OneWorld9

join:2010-12-09
East York, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to NightMayor

said by NightMayor:

said by xdrag:

said by TSI Marc:

...

What's the right thing to do?

Marc, on the TSI website, you need to have a section to post any suspected network downtimes. Twitter, RSS or anything.

If you think there's a downtime or congestion in an area. It wouldn't hurt to post it. When those who are affected by these unforeseen problems, they can see on your website and be like "oh, maybe that's why my connection is sucking".

i.e. comstock POI is being upgraded - users in the scarborough area may experience network issues

I agree, there needs to be something there on the website with suspected downtimes. And like you said it could be anything more. Right now as far as I know we only have advisories on the phone like when you call Teksavvy there may be a message right off where it says which POI has problems.

I think a map would be good, like Toronto hydro's, since not everyone knows about POIs. Red could mean confirmed disturbance, yellow could mean suspected, and green could mean normal.

+1 ... this is constructive and getting somewhere. It's a good start.

said by NightMayor:

said by xdrag:

The biggest need at the moment is consumer education. Most people have NO clue to what's going on and only blame TSI as their sole source of woes. If people became self-educated on the issue between TSI's arm-lock with rogers and bell, there would be more action. The prime example is UBB. People heard about it, learned about it and took action against it.

»openmedia.ca was suppose to do this, but it's clearly not working. Bell and Rogers own all the media outlets in canada so unless you start a riot in DT, most of this will fall on deaf ears

I also agree with this. Communication is always key. I think the problem though is that the general public thought just because UBB is gone all our internet problems are solved. So yeah, there needs to be another uprising of sorts, rioting is a little extreme IMHO.

+1. I'm all for this as well. While TekSavvy (and other TPIAs) work towards improving their service to the best possible levels (given the limitations of working with incumbents), getting things to change is obviously one of the main factors needed for long-term benefits for all.

There was no violence (that I'm aware of) which caused so many people in Canada to protest UBB - there doesn't need to be here either. Education / action is what is needed.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
reply to TwiztedZero

Re: Welcome to Dystopia

said by TwiztedZero:

I'm in favor of going to war with the CRTC and the big incumbents, and get the rest of the country embroiled in a huge ass legal fight all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada to break our LAST MILE Infrastructure AWAY from the dastardly Incumbents.

Who is going to pay for it? If this ever came close to happening. They would create a company in the US and hand the last mile over to them, and when the government goes to take their last mile, they'll sue for compensation under NAFTA.

It's already happened, I just don't remember who the company was. It was a Canadian company, incorporated in Delaware.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

1 recommendation

Ironically, Rogers was down this week. We weren't.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26
reply to xdrag

Re: TekSavvy - glorified reseller, not ISP

said by xdrag:

Marc, on the TSI website, you need to have a section to post any suspected network downtimes. Twitter, RSS or anything.

»www.teksavvy.com/en/support/tools/tools

twitter: @TekSavvyNetwork
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy

xdrag

join:2005-02-18
North York, ON

1 edit

said by TSI Marc:

said by xdrag:

Marc, on the TSI website, you need to have a section to post any suspected network downtimes. Twitter, RSS or anything.

»www.teksavvy.com/en/support/tools/tools

twitter: @TekSavvyNetwork

That's good but i think that's too hidden honestly.

Support -> tools -> tools. The average person will only spend 10 seconds on a webpage.

IMO it should be smack in the frontpage or a link that easily be followed from there.

A twitter box for network status on the right hand-side would be a nice addition.

A good way to implement a mapping system for outage is flagging. When a customer calls in or contacts CSR about a network disruption (speed/packetloss/congestion), the system can flag their location at the end of the call. Overtime, if there's a high concentration of flags in a certain area, the manager of the CSR can review the heat-map and issue "suspected" node congestion notices.

I'm unsure how practical or easy this would be to implement but I think that would be a simple way giving your CSR a tool to check for network congestion and the consumers as well.

OneWorld9

join:2010-12-09
East York, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

said by xdrag:

said by TSI Marc:

said by xdrag:

Marc, on the TSI website, you need to have a section to post any suspected network downtimes. Twitter, RSS or anything.

»www.teksavvy.com/en/support/tools/tools

twitter: @TekSavvyNetwork

That's good but i think that's too hidden honestly.

Support -> tools -> tools. The average person will only spend 10 seconds a webpage.

IMO it should be smack in the frontpage or a link that easily be followed from there.

A twitter box for network status on the right hand-side would be a nice addition.

+1

Was this announced to customers in any way? This is the first time I've heard any network status announcements were available.

I see the Twitter account was only created earlier this month. I think separating tweets (or RSS) in some fashion would be helpful. I'm not all that interested in what happens outside of my area of service, and with services I don't subscribe to, other than to perhaps periodically check what TSI is dealing with.

xdrag

join:2005-02-18
North York, ON

said by OneWorld9:

+1

Was this announced to customers in any way? This is the first time I've heard any network status announcements were available.

I see the Twitter account was only created earlier this month. I think separating tweets (or RSS) in some fashion would be helpful. I'm not all that interested in what happens outside of my area of service, and with services I don't subscribe to, other than to perhaps periodically check what TSI is dealing with.

It always existed in some shape or form. Whether it would be announcements on DSLr or on their website. It was on the old website but once again, it was buried and not too many updates were fed through.

Given the growing consumer base though, i think it would be a good idea to give the system a bit of an overhaul. More frequent updates and the addition of issuing "code yellow" warnings for unofficial reports of network issues would be nice. Get a few TSI regulars on the board to join the monitoring group which would provide a steady stream of pings in different areas.

UK_Dave

join:2011-01-27
Powassan, ON
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·Bell Sympatico

Earlier this morning I had an example of this system in operation.

Long story short:

Power went off.
Worried about missing tv golf = very annoyed.
Called Hydro. Auto-voice said "We know, 400 houses involved. ETC 3 hours."
I was happy.

Now as it turns out, it was on again in less than 60 minutes.

Really Happy.

Cheers,
Dave


OneWorld9

join:2010-12-09
East York, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

said by UK_Dave:

Earlier this morning I had an example of this system in operation.

Long story short:

Power went off.
Worried about missing tv golf = very annoyed.
Called Hydro. Auto-voice said "We know, 400 houses involved. ETC 3 hours."
I was happy.

Now as it turns out, it was on again in less than 60 minutes.

Really Happy.

Cheers,
Dave

+1 ... announcements like this and others will a) show they know what's going on, and b) prevent a lot of wasted time troubleshooting, etc. Granted, power is a lot simpler to troubleshoot than your ISP connection, but TekSavvy needs to work towards that kind of knowledge of their customers' connections (at least from the network side).

geokilla

join:2010-10-04
North York, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to OneWorld9

said by OneWorld9:

+1

Was this announced to customers in any way? This is the first time I've heard any network status announcements were available.

I see the Twitter account was only created earlier this month. I think separating tweets (or RSS) in some fashion would be helpful. I'm not all that interested in what happens outside of my area of service, and with services I don't subscribe to, other than to perhaps periodically check what TSI is dealing with.

Only people that know such a tool would be tech savvy people... And if the Internet is down, how do they expect us to get onto the Internet....

The Mongoose

join:2010-01-05
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

1 edit
reply to TSI Marc

Re: Welcome to Dystopia

said by TSI Marc:

Ironically, Rogers was down this week. We weren't.

Which, in and of itself, disproves the title of this thread. Also ironic.

That being said, count me among those who think an easily accessible network status page would be both interesting and valuable. Simple network status, perhaps a notice of any known Rogers outages potentially affecting TSI...even POI-level reports if those aren't considered proprietary (I remember seeing some POI graphs posted during the congestion issue). At the very least, having the latter available would preempt people thinking that the problem is overselling a given POI.


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

We've been doing network outage notices for ages...

If you want to know what's going on, you can call in as we always update the IVR, you can see the web site, we always post here on dslr also... we're on twitter.. before the teksavvynetwork handle was created we did it on one of the other handles.

like... how much more can we possibly put it out there? It's almost like you guys are spoiled and you dont even know it anymore.

I think you guys are missing what's actually happening though. The average person will see all of this and will think that TekSavvy is not reliable. That I think caries more weight then having notices out there.

Furthermore, none of these things are on our network, so we can't say conclusively what's actually happening until we get positive feedback from the incumbents unless if it's on our own network. We always post those... so to spend a massive amount of time trying to fish for problems in the dark is really not efficient. It amounts to a best effort kind of thing on our side, which is what we do and have always done.

As for the link being prominently available on the front page. Yeah, sorry, not going to happen. Just add the link to your favs... the location has changed since we launched the new site but we've had that for years. We're doing the very same things as we've always done.

As it is internally, we're more worried about the message it's sending to the average person because there are so many notices. Just look here on dslr and twitter... there are multiple notices almost each and every week. We have so many users on Rogers and Bell's network that when they change anything anywhere, we have customers who are down. I can't speak to the reasons but the net effect is that we're spending all of our time dealing with outages. It's almost daily. Our phone system clogs up depending what the outage is and then we get accused of not having enough staff... it's a whole different sent of problems. Rogers and Bell are both doing a ton of upgrades. So here we are talking about this stuff... I dunno. Yet, another frustrating problem... I'm very anxious for upgrades to be done. The rate of change is so high on all fronts.

Not trying to sounds pessimistic, I'm sure I'm projecting here but these issues are not trivial and we are working very hard to stay on top of it all. This dialogue is important and I'm open to solid suggestions, its you guys really in the end who can help us flush out and spread the word about what's actually going on.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


xdrag

join:2005-02-18
North York, ON
reply to geokilla

Re: TekSavvy - glorified reseller, not ISP

said by geokilla:

Only people that know such a tool would be tech savvy people... And if the Internet is down, how do they expect us to get onto the Internet....

True but don't forget more and more people have smartphone and data plans. The day and age where our home is the sole connection to the internet world is shrinking.

That being said, an automated voice message would be great for those who have outages like the hydro example earlier. For slow-downs, it's a bit more complicated.

UK_Dave

join:2011-01-27
Powassan, ON
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·Bell Sympatico
reply to OneWorld9

"+1 ... announcements like this and others will a) show they know what's going on, and b) prevent a lot of wasted time troubleshooting, etc. Granted, power is a lot simpler to troubleshoot than your ISP connection, but TekSavvy needs to work towards that kind of knowledge of their customers' connections (at least from the network side)."

--------------------

Sure. I add it only as an example - fully aware that although many might see it as a the "Gold Standard", some would refer to it as the "Industry Gold Standard".

Different industry needs different approach maybe?



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

1 edit
reply to NightMayor

said by NightMayor:

I also agree with this. Communication is always key. I think the problem though is that the general public thought just because UBB is gone all our internet problems are solved. So yeah, there needs to be another uprising of sorts, rioting is a little extreme IMHO.

It's simple really and it's that UBB is far from gone. There is more regulatory activity right now than ever. Many issues are being held up because UBB wasn't dealt with properly the first time around. I agree we all need to get on the same page but we're too busy arguing about support issues while the whole forest is on fire.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy

bbiab

join:2004-05-26

I think most knowledgeable customers appreciate TSI's position and effort Marc.



sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:12
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to OneWorld9

said by OneWorld9:

+1 ... announcements like this and others will a) show they know what's going on, and b) prevent a lot of wasted time troubleshooting, etc. Granted, power is a lot simpler to troubleshoot than your ISP connection, but TekSavvy needs to work towards that kind of knowledge of their customers' connections (at least from the network side).

Short of pinging all their customers on a routine basis ... which means they have to be told by Rogers who's been assigned what IP, there's no way that TSI can tell who's having problems. Supply side monitoring is very very difficult. Rogers won't in any hurry provide access to their DHCP service to implement supply side monitoring.

Electric power companies also tend to rely on client side monitoring too and as a result the delays tend to result in cascade failures like the Ontario outage a few years back. Supply side monitoring is far more common at the power distribution level in Europe so cascade failures are far less common, but that requires more infrastructure that it would be very costly to implement in an internet environment.

The other problem with supply side monitoring is the tin-foil-hat folk will start up with "What's my ISP doing probing my system ever hour every day? They're spying on us."


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26
reply to bbiab

that's good. maybe I take these things too personally.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy



NightMayor

join:2010-04-28
York, ON

1 edit

I'm pretty sure all of us here really appreciate you guys reading our replies and suggestions.

You have to understand though, we can't share something that most of us don't know exist. That's why there's all this confusion of not knowing where to go to find service advisories. So I don't agree that we are spoiled, just uninformed. This is part of the communication problem some of us are suggesting needs to be fixed.

In any case, here's follower 87!



BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to OneWorld9

said by OneWorld9:

Throughout the past two months of troubleshooting my issue with TekSavvy, they requested I submit various logs to them, including ping, tracert, etc. Each time, gathering those logs took me approx. 45 mins. or longer. I am well-versed on how to run these DOS commands and gather the logs. If this is what TekSavvy requires to open tickets with Rogers for support, all of this could have been automated.

TSI Agent: Okay, I'm going to need you to run the TekDiagnostic utility, which was sent to you on CD-ROM when you first signed up for service. Leave it running and when the problem occurs, it will automatically send us the information we need.

Customer: Oh. I lost that CD a long time ago...

TSI Agent: That's okay, it can be downloaded fro...[cut off by customer]

Customer: Downloaded? My connection isn't working, how the f am I supposed to download it?

---

Yes, I know that my hypothetical customer can download it at work or a friend or neighbor's house or whatever, but what good is that if they're on the phone with the tech *right then* and the issue is occurring *right then*?

This isn't the right solution to this problem. A lot os ISPs here in the US tried using tools like this a few years back. The sent out CDs with propaganda strongly insinuating that your connection would stop working eventually if you did not install them, so customers would have them already installed when the time came. The problems came when some inquisitive minds who knew better picked apart at what the tools actually did and when it was found that the tools tracked user actions and connection metrics and sent data back to the ISP (it didn't matter that they only did this when the user requested it), the backlash was huge. Well, except for Comcast, whose tools constantly collected data, though they still only sent it upon request...

So, I guess, in answer to my own question about why other ISPs don't use such tools... ^-- This. On top of causing customer backlash, they were next to useless because most of the time when there was an issue there was no way to get the data from the tool to the ISP.

Today, such software is limited to pinging a few sites, running you through a "check your cables, reboot your computer and modem, then run this again" process, and returning a "your connection appears fine" or a "there is a problem with your connection, please call [ISP] at [phone number] for assistance". They're nothing like the almost useful tools you describe, which were attempted in the past.

The best bet is something like Line Monitor (which you're already using) which pings the customer's IP repeatedly, but that also requires that either the user's modem is acting as their router and is configured to respond to ping, the modem is in bridge mode and the user's router is configured to respond to ping, or the user's modem is in bridge mode with no router and their computer isn't running firewall software that drops ping requests. It also requires the user to know their IP address. Anyone who could make that tool work in cases where it won't work by default (and most who know how who look up their own IP address) will already know how to run a traceroute and ping a site. Also, you can bet you ass that TSI is monitoring lines that have trouble tickets open; whether or not the front line reps have access to this monitoring is another issue and if they don't, they should.

said by OneWorld9:

Therein lies the essence of my thread in the first place. If customers will not accept a subpar service, it needs to change.

Therein lies the basis for the text you are quoting. If customers want the landscape to change, they have to do something to enact that change. TSI wants it toi change, as well, but if you actually read everything I wrote, you'll see what TSI simply wanting it to change, knowing what needs to be done, negotiating their asses off, and wishing for the best ain't gonna do it. Customers need to flee the incumbents in droves, making TPIA the incumbents' primary income source (or at least *A* primary source) before the incumbents will play ball. Now that I've stated it 3 different ways, do you see the problem with what you're expecting? You're right to expect it, but you're wrong if you think it's possible without external pressure in the form of customers leaving the incumbents and showing that they're willing to suffer a small war to change things.

said by OneWorld9:

When they also go so far as to ask the customer to waste a lot of time performing troubleshooting when they themselves have not ruled out a network issue (which is their responsibility), they do indeed need to make things right. Whatever losses they may incur as a result, that's solely because of their current processes and procedures. If they want someone like myself to troubleshoot for them, they can put me on their payroll.

You haven't called tech support at, or requested a credit from, a first-party provider in a while, have you? It's pretty standard practice. The fact remains that when the issue is caused by Tek, they typically do offer a credit or refund. However, to offer credits or refunds to every dissatisfied customer, on the scale you're suggesting, would put them out of business; the incumbents, who run on much fatter profit margins, don't even do this, because they also could not afford to do so and stay in business. Reasonable to expect? Arguably. Possible within the realm of reality? No.

said by OneWorld9:

I'm not disputing it's a terrible situation for any TPIA to be in. However, they clearly want to compete with the incumbents as a "better service". I joined TekSavvy with this impression. My experience being otherwise, I'm sharing that it isn't (which some people have appreciated). They have offered to make things right, so I'm giving them that chance.

They want to compete with the incumbents as a "better service offering", where "service" is "internet" and "offering" is "speed and/or usage limits". If they offer you neither better speeds nor higher caps than their competitors, then they have indeed failed at that for you.

I understand (and also appreciate) that you are here to share your story, so that others know that these things happen. It is important that people do this, to help weed out bad providers. It's equally important that people like myself, and others on these forums, post additional information to support a good provider like TSI (regardless of your personal opinion, if you compare all the details of your other options, I'm confident you'll come around to my view, which is likely why you're giving them a chance to fix it rather than jumping to someone better). That's the metric by which you can judge customer satisfaction. If nobody's bothering to post in support of the provider, they must truly be terrible; well, here we are showing our support.

Of course TSI is trying to make things right; they always do. Yes, it may take some time and often it takes something like this thread to bring a particular issue to the attention of the higher-ups, and that is unfortunate. Something does need to be done about it, and I have a few suggestions for fixing this issue, which I'll discuss, via PM, with a certain of their higher-ups who had shown an interest in another of my ideas.