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Punks Galore

@videotron.ca
reply to vue666

Re: Canadian comes home from Guantanamo

said by vue666:

Or a Canadian performing an act of treason

Doesn't matter how much you try to thump the "treason" thing, or whatever your mind is fantasizing about. He wasn't convicted of treason. He is a child soldier.

Come on, you can say it... C h i l d - S o l d i e r.


vue666
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Just because he wasn't convicted of treason doesn't mean he did not commit treason.

Kindly look up the definition of treason....

quote:
(c) assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.

AND sorry you can't play it both ways claiming Khadr should be allowed into Canada as it is his homeland... AND then claim he was defending his homeland in Afghanistan... So which is his homeland Canada or Afghanistan?


urbanriot
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reply to Ian
said by Ian:

You could.....if Afghanistan were Omar Khadr's home (it wasn't) or that the invaders were necessarily Christian.

I just wanted to have some fun with labels If he was fighting in the name of, on behalf of, Islam then I accept your labels. I'm not entirely clear on that one as I've read conflicting reports on exactly what he was doing there and why he was there.

quote:
When asked how that made him feel at the time, the US military reports that the 15-year old stated "I wanted to kill a lot of American[s] to get lots of money".
The whole thing is just... fucked. A kid raised with Bin Laden to hate the west, who could have had a moderately decent life in Scarborough.


Ian
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join:2002-06-18
ON
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said by urbanriot:

The whole thing is just... fucked. A kid raised with Bin Laden to hate the west, who could have had a moderately decent life in Scarborough.

It is. None of these things are simple. And I'm not sure that some of the solution isn't to hold the parents (1 surviving in this case) responsible for much. But we have no such law and custom in Canada.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
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join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
said by Ian:

said by urbanriot:

The whole thing is just... fucked. A kid raised with Bin Laden to hate the west, who could have had a moderately decent life in Scarborough.

It is. None of these things are simple. And I'm not sure that some of the solution isn't to hold the parents (1 surviving in this case) responsible for much. But we have no such law and custom in Canada.

If we accept Vue's premise that treason is applicable the maybe the mother is guilty of:

PART I Criminal Code Parties to Offences
Person counselling offence
22. (1) Where a person counsels another person to be a party to an offence and that other person is afterwards a party to that offence, the person who counselled is a party to that offence, notwithstanding that the offence was committed in a way different from that which was counselled.

NCRGuy

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reply to vue666
said by vue666:

Just because he wasn't convicted of treason doesn't mean he did not commit treason.

Kindly look up the definition of treason....

quote:
(c) assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.

AND sorry you can't play it both ways claiming Khadr should be allowed into Canada as it is his homeland... AND then claim he was defending his homeland in Afghanistan... So which is his homeland Canada or Afghanistan?

And kindly look up section 11(d) of the Charter. Unless he has been convicted of treason, he is innocent of treason.


vue666
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1 edit
Again just because he wasn't charged does not mean he did not act out the crime... I'm sure there are plenty of murderers & thieves running lose who have not been charged....

He fought with the enemy against his country and it's allies... Now what do you call that?

By your logic if I drove 60 kph in a 30 kph zone and wasn't caught I would not have been speeding...


Shrug

@videotron.ca
reply to vue666
said by vue666:

Just because he wasn't convicted of treason doesn't mean he did not commit treason.

Kindly look up the definition of treason....

You expect a child who left here at what age to know that. Or who was brought into some war when he was 14 to know what treason is, and what side is right or wrong in mass killings?

Sorry I missed the Canadian court case on that one. As well as all the other child soldier cases where they were declared to have committed treason because their father brought them to another country as... come on... you can say it... C h i l d r e n.

You are still fantasizing about a little boy who left Canada all by his lonesome to join a war and fight for what he thought was right, but was instead treason. And then this little boy knew all the ins and outs of law. etc, etc, etc.

As you, yourself, state over and over again, there is no rehabilitation in your fantasizing and make believe. To me, in my opinion, it goes beyound comprehension.

said by vue666:

AND sorry you can't play it both ways claiming Khadr should be allowed into Canada as it is his homeland... AND then claim he was defending his homeland in Afghanistan... So which is his homeland Canada or Afghanistan?

I never stated that. Maybe you can correct yourself and direct your question at the one who did?


vue666
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said by Shrug :
You expect a child who left here at what age to know that. Or who was brought into some war when he was 14 to know what treason is, and what side is right or wrong in mass killings?


Ignorance of the law is never an acceptable excuse or reason...

As far as age, he sure knew what killing is...

NCRGuy

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Ottawa, ON
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reply to vue666
said by vue666:

Again just because he wasn't charged does not mean he did not act out the crime... I'm sure there are plenty of murderers & thieves running lose who have not been charged....

He fought with the enemy against his country and it's allies... Now what do you call that?

By your logic if I drove 60 kph in a 30 kph zone and wasn't caught I would not have been speeding...

You would be presumed innocent just like he is. Deal with it, or file a private prosecution.


Shrug

@videotron.ca
reply to vue666
said by vue666:

Ignorance of the law is never an acceptable excuse or reason...

Come on... You can say it... Except when it's a C H I L D.

Seems to me you slandering him for something he was never been convicted of, yet spouting it as the god honest truth of is also "ignorance of the law".

What would you do if you sued you?

Plead ignorant? Plead fantasy?

...And he likely could. People have been sued for less.

You appear to have this mental block with C h i l d r e n.

Seems to me there have been enough cult cases in various countries (and our own) to maybe help guide you in what a vulnerable part of society is. And to help you along a... Come on... you can say it... C h i l d is considered vulnerable.

That is one reason why Canada is signed onto to international agreements about child soldiers, and also why Canada is now being slammed as ignoring its duty by every organization on the face of the earth.

But you can chose to pretend none of this exists in your world.

Not much more can be said to you. You live in a fantasy.


Ian
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reply to peterboro
said by peterboro:

If we accept Vue's premise that treason is applicable the maybe the mother is guilty of: ...

Perhaps. Good editorial about Omar's wonderful mother here.

»fullcomment.nationalpost.com/201 ··· -mirror/

"“We don’t feel like we’re being treated fairly,” Elsamnah told the Star. It’s unclear who the “we” is she’s referring to in that statement. If it includes Omar, she’s partly right. Omar Khadr hasn’t been treated fairly. But the foremost culprits in that crime are his late father and his now complaining mother, parents who set their youngest child on a path that could only lead to violent death — that of innocent Westerners if not his own.

If she’s including herself as one of the wronged, Elsamnah is very much mistaken. She is lucky she has not been held to account for the horrors she’s helped inflict on her own son."
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong

PX Eliezer70
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Hutt River
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said by Ian:

(Quoting an editorial): But the foremost culprits in that crime are his late father and his now complaining mother, parents who set their youngest child on a path that could only lead to violent death that of innocent Westerners if not his own.

To that I'd add: Not just Westerners....

The Taliban and al-Qaeda kill plenty of civilians in Pakistan and other countries. Ironically most of the victims in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and many of the victims elsewhere, are of the same Muslim faith that this family purports to support....


vue666
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1 edit
reply to NCRGuy
said by NCRGuy:

said by vue666:

Again just because he wasn't charged does not mean he did not act out the crime... I'm sure there are plenty of murderers & thieves running lose who have not been charged....

He fought with the enemy against his country and it's allies... Now what do you call that?

By your logic if I drove 60 kph in a 30 kph zone and wasn't caught I would not have been speeding...

You would be presumed innocent just like he is. Deal with it, or file a private prosecution.

He killed an American medic. A Canadian (Khadr) killed an American who was our ally... sorry but that's treason whether or not he is convicted. Besides he admitted to the crime... So he is not innocent...


vue666
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reply to Shrug
said by Shrug :

said by vue666:

Ignorance of the law is never an acceptable excuse or reason...

Come on... You can say it... Except when it's a C H I L D.

Seems to me you slandering him for something he was never been convicted of, yet spouting it as the god honest truth of is also "ignorance of the law".

What would you do if you sued you?

Plead ignorant? Plead fantasy?

...And he likely could. People have been sued for less.

You appear to have this mental block with C h i l d r e n.

Seems to me there have been enough cult cases in various countries (and our own) to maybe help guide you in what a vulnerable part of society is. And to help you along a... Come on... you can say it... C h i l d is considered vulnerable.

That is one reason why Canada is signed onto to international agreements about child soldiers, and also why Canada is now being slammed as ignoring its duty by every organization on the face of the earth.

But you can chose to pretend none of this exists in your world.

Not much more can be said to you. You live in a fantasy.

He's a terrorist with very close ties to Bin Laden...

MaynardKrebs
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reply to Ian
said by Ian:

[
You could.....if Afghanistan were Omar Khadr's home (it wasn't) or that the invaders were necessarily Christian. In any case, whether or not Khadr met the legal test as a war criminal and terrorist was up to the US legal system, not ours. And those questions were never tested at trial since Khadr plead guilty to both.

Khadr's home was where his father said it was - that would be true of any 10-year old, or even 15-year old who knew no other place in between.


WhaleOilBee
What a long strange trip it's been

join:2011-08-02
Manotick, ON
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reply to PX Eliezer70
Why do people keep calling him a "Child Soldier". It's not like his village was attacked, his father killed, and his mother raped before he was forced to participate in a war, abused by his captors, and threatened daily if he didn't comply. For those poor kids, I sympathize and hope they can recover from their ordeal. In the case of Khadr, his own family trained him for the purpose of killing the very people among whom he lived.

Yes for sure his parents fk'ed him up, no doubt. But I have a very hard time feeling any sympathy for him.

Oh big deal he was born here; that just makes him a Canadian in name, not in spirit. So we're stuck with him. Let's see these bleeding hearts so happy when he's released and moves into their neighbourhood.


Wolfie00
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Agreed. Particularly with the misappropriation of the "child soldier" designation. His circumstances don't fit the accepted definition, various official pronouncements notwithstanding. Can't say I would really have a problem with him moving into my neighbourhood, though -- it would probably be the one place least likely to be blown up.


Shrug

@videotron.ca
reply to WhaleOilBee
said by WhaleOilBee:

Why do people keep calling him a "Child Soldier". It's not like his village was attacked, his father killed, and his mother raped before he was forced to participate in a war, abused by his captors, and threatened daily if he didn't comply.

Is that what it is? Did that happen? Is that the definition of a child soldier? I'll let you look that one up.

But, kind of funny how even the American government, the United Nations, and the international community, referred to him as that while condemning Canada.

But yup. He is in definition. Like it or not. Or fantasize it's not out of fear like some people. Doesn't really matter what people "think" on a forum. It is what he is and he carries that designation.

peterboro
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reply to NCRGuy
said by NCRGuy:

Deal with it, or file a private prosecution.

I don't think a JP would even consider that regardless of the evidence vue had.

peterboro
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reply to Wolfie00
said by Wolfie00:

Agreed. Particularly with the misappropriation of the "child soldier" designation.

The label "child" itself is a misnomer. He is 15. Old enough regardless of indoctrination to know what he was doing.

PX Eliezer70
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reply to peterboro
I found this person's comments rather interesting....

Born into a family which was legally in Canada, emotionally in Pakistan and philosophically in 8th century Arabia, his childhood could not be considered ‘normal’ by any standards.

Both his parents were religious fanatics (his mother still is, his father gave his life to conduct violent jihad). He was physically bumped around, from living in the ‘Secular West’ at some points to a Muslim school in Pakistan to terrorist training camps. His sister was given in marriage at the age of 15 to an Al-Qaeda buddy of her father (the wedding is said to have been attended by Osama himself), his brothers actively conducted violent jihad (not all survived), and so on.

»blog.xanthippas.com/2009/08/25/o ··· un-laws/

He makes other interesting points too.


Shrug

@videotron.ca
said by PX Eliezer70:

»blog.xanthippas.com/2009/08/25/o ··· un-laws/

He makes other interesting points too.

Yet chooses to selectively ignore others. Read it.


Shrug

@videotron.ca
reply to peterboro
I was looking up what happened to all the kids in gitmo and else-where. I never realized there were, so many aged 13 and up. Hundreds that are known of. Maybe thousands that are unknown of.

Kids murdered at gitmo or various other US torture houses.

Kids sent back home to be tortured further.

Kids sent to UNICEF (and others like UNICEF) for child soldier rehabilitation.

I read as many of their stories that I could muster. It hit me a little bit.

If they weren't murdered by their American torturers, they were re-tossed into torture or prisons where they came from, some made it, some snapped and became suicide bombers. It's all over the board.

Some kids were just picked up off the streets and sold to the Americans for 10$, then they ended up being tortured, or died, or let go 8 years later.

It's mind numbing how many there were. And how many were just randomly picked up and labeled.

A true American atrocity committed. A crime that no one will ever punish. But History at least is documented.

I think the only "rants" I came across that made sense to me was those by Canadian Senator, Roméo Dallaire in defending the child soldiers.

He himself have worked with them in Rwanda and else-where.

I don't know about the rest of you, but that is one Senator that commands respect when he speaks. He put down the Canadian government as well in regards to their obligations to Child soldiers and Canada's responsibility to Kadhar. And has been for years.

It's sad really.

As said above, these kids have seen things, been through things in a short period of time that many of you people who frown upon them will never (luckily) get to experience in a whole life time.


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to peterboro
said by peterboro:

said by Wolfie00:

Agreed. Particularly with the misappropriation of the "child soldier" designation.

The label "child" itself is a misnomer. He is 15. Old enough regardless of indoctrination to know what he was doing.

He started at age 11. He had no clue. He was serving his dad.
Fits UN definition for age 15 and under (he was only captured at age 15, keep that in mind), as the UN stated.
UNICEF I do believe is either 15 or 17
Other treaties label them 17 and younger.

All of which Canada honours, and is part of. Thus the reason Canada will recruit at 17, but not deploy them till 18 in Canada (and I do believe the states as well). Because the fit the label of child soldier otherwise.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

There are also a few other treaties or conventions in regards to this as well, that we are part of.


vue666
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reply to PX Eliezer70
BUT he is no longer 15. He's 25 or 26 and an Al Qaeda terrorist.

The safety & security of Canada should trump the rights of a terrorist...

No wonder some in the world believe Canada is a haven for terrorists...


milnoc

join:2001-03-05
H3B
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What was that quote about security over freedom again?...


capdjq
Oh Did I Offend You
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reply to vue666
Thus far Khadr has done nothing, as far as I know, to endanger the safety and security of Canada. His crime was killing a US Serviceman in Afghanistan. What exactly are we doing in that Country? Destroying the safe havens of terrorists before they attack us is, the policy. And, oh yes, bringing freedom to the Afghans, most of whom hate us for being in their Country.
So Khadr, fighting for the Afghans, kills a US Soldier who has no right to be there. He hates the US, not Canada.
Maybe he's a Freedom Fighter, not a terrorist.
--
"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it."



vue666
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But there were Canadians fighting in Afghanistan as well as Americans.... Canada was at war, America was our ally...

This would be the same as a Canadian during WWII joining the German army and killing an American or Brit...

152 Canadians have been killed in Afghanistan. How do we know Khadr wasn't involved in any of these conflicts?

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_F ··· hanistan


vue666
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1 edit
reply to capdjq
said by capdjq:
He hates the US, not Canada.

Wrong. He hates the west...