dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
16354
share rss forum feed

HarryH3
Premium
join:2005-02-21
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Suddenlink
reply to ke4pym

Re: I've gone and done it ... solar install

said by ke4pym:

said by workablob:

This sounds damning for Solar.

»www.thestreet.com/story/11755369···ork.html

Thoughts?

Dave

I take exception to item #4. While shade on one panel means reduced output on the other panels ... IF a string inverter is used. I'm using microinverters. So, shade on one panel means just that one panel's output is reduced.

Read it again, they didn't say that shade on one panel reduced the output of other panels. They said that shade on one CELL reduced the output of all the cells in that array.

ke4pym
Premium
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC
Reviews:
·VOIPO
·ooma
·Verizon Broadban..
·Northland Cable ..
·Time Warner Cable
reply to workablob

said by workablob:

This sounds damning for Solar.

»www.thestreet.com/story/11755369···ork.html

Thoughts?

Dave

I take exception to item #4. While shade on one panel means reduced output on the other panels ... IF a string inverter is used. I'm using microinverters. So, shade on one panel means just that one panel's output is reduced.


workablob

join:2004-06-09
Houston, TX
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to ke4pym

This sounds damning for Solar.

»www.thestreet.com/story/11755369···ork.html

Thoughts?

Dave
--
I may have been born yesterday. But it wasn't at night.


patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1
reply to fluffybunny

said by fluffybunny :

this is why you should always buy freehold never HOA. asking permission from the HOA or anyone for trivial stuff like solar panels is something to be avoided at all costs. I dont see why people *pay* someone for the privilege of asking permission and getting denied to install something in their back garden.

There is no freehold in the USA. You rent your "land" from the government at all times unless you are in a homeless shelter or prison.


natedj
Elected
Premium
join:2001-06-06
Columbia, SC
reply to ke4pym

I vote for keeping it in this thread.


ke4pym
Premium
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC
Reviews:
·VOIPO
·ooma
·Verizon Broadban..
·Northland Cable ..
·Time Warner Cable

2 recommendations

reply to ke4pym

Time to get the solar panels installed on the roof! I will post pictures as I can. Not sure if I should keep posting to this thread or start a new one for the pictures. Here's the schedule:

Monday - Installing all roof supports and rail systems.

Tuesday - All interior work. This will consist of roof penetrations into the attic, conduit and wire runs, mounting of disconnects, and connection into the main service panel.

Wednesday - Finish any interior work and begin installing all micro inverters.

Monday after Thanksgiving - Install all solar panels.

Tuesday- Final electrical inspection.

Wednesday- Final building inspection.



tstolze
Premium
join:2003-08-08
O Fallon, MO
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to Jack_in_VA

said by Jack_in_VA:

Received my electric bill today for Sept 13 through oct 12. 782 kWh. Cost $89.12 including all taxes and fees. Heat pump set to cool at 75 degrees 24/7.

I would be hard for me to "invest in a big loan for solar". At 69 I won't live long enough to even pay it off much less enjoy any savings "if any".

I agree at your age the gamble would not be worth it. I will be 45 late in December, the final total on my system after rebates was $11,000. Since May 1 we have not paid for $546 worth of electric not including taxes. As a matter of fact we have produced 350 kWh more than we have used since May 1. The sun is quickly getting to a lower angle and I am seeing a decent drop in production, on the best days I am producing just over 30 kWH, in the summer we were consistently over 45 with the best day at 48 kWh.
--
Ofallon, Mo Weather
St. Peters, Mo Weather


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to ke4pym

Received my electric bill today for Sept 13 through oct 12. 782 kWh. Cost $89.12 including all taxes and fees. Heat pump set to cool at 75 degrees 24/7.

I would be hard for me to "invest in a big loan for solar". At 69 I won't live long enough to even pay it off much less enjoy any savings "if any".



tstolze
Premium
join:2003-08-08
O Fallon, MO
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to ke4pym

said by ke4pym:

What's the capacity of your panels (in individual watts)?

Manufactured by Solarworld USA, 255 watt panels
--
Ofallon, Mo Weather
St. Peters, Mo Weather

ke4pym
Premium
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC
reply to tstolze

What's the capacity of your panels (in individual watts)?



tstolze
Premium
join:2003-08-08
O Fallon, MO
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to jack b

said by jack b:

I like how you have an image in the background, How'd you do that?!

It is an option within the array builder portion of the site. My installer was dragging their feet getting it setup, so I did it myself. If you are not able to get to it, send an image to your installer and ask them to add it.
--
Ofallon, Mo Weather
St. Peters, Mo Weather

itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA
reply to fifty nine

said by fifty nine:

Even before we get to that, are we going to approve permits to even build the darn things? Even with a new administration, they aren't going to dismantle the EPA and NRC overnight. That takes much more than just an act of Congress.

But the right person can start the conversations and get the regulations changed. We need to do something and shuttering coal and nukes is not the answer.

quote:
Communism ensures what is mined here stays here. The free market ensures that it is sold for the most profit. China needs coal. India needs coal. Their needs aren't decreasing.
Nice try but that was part of Communism but Communism was more than that. It was the theory that the government owned everything, you worked and they gave you what they thought you needed.

I'm talking about our resources and keeping them here for the benefit of our people. If you think the world's oil is limited (it isn't necessarily - look up abiotic oil) it makes sense to keep what's in your ground for use by your citizens. It's just good sense.

Regulate it like a utility. We'll guarantee you a decent profit and you can pull our stuff out of the ground. In exchange all of it has to be used by our people. Or we get 90% and 10% goes to the world. China has no issues doing that with their Rare Earth minerals so why not us with our oil, coal, and natural gas reserves?

quote:
If it's keeping energy prices low, why are rates rising?

That would be a question for your utility. Our rates have been relatively stable here for a few years. Right under $.10/kWh.


jack b
Gone Fishing
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-08
Cape Cod
kudos:1

1 edit
reply to tstolze

I'm also using a TED-5000 with two sets of CT's and the Enphase Envoy.

I like how you have an image in the background, How'd you do that?!

I also use a free firefox add-on, Ted the toolbar, it gives me a real-time view of the system voltage and net KW while browsing. It also has full-window graphs you can launch.

»addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox···toolbar/
--
~Help Find a Cure for Cancer~
~Proud Member of Team Discovery ~



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

1 edit

1 recommendation

reply to fifty nine

said by fifty nine:

If it's keeping energy prices low, why are rates rising?

Because of the EPA and Environmental Wacko's

That's why rates are rising and unless we get them under control will continue to do so.


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2
reply to itguy05

said by itguy05:

That's assuming we don't double down and get serious on nuclear. Then the fossil fuel argument goes out the window. And living near TMI, nuclear doesn't bother me in the least bit.

Where are you going to store the waste? Is everyone going to be OK with waste stored in their back yard?

Even before we get to that, are we going to approve permits to even build the darn things? Even with a new administration, they aren't going to dismantle the EPA and NRC overnight. That takes much more than just an act of Congress.

Also if the current administration gets kicked out in a month and sensible coal and energy policy come along we can get that capacity back. And by sensible energy policy I mean allowing coal and ensuring that what is mined here stays here.

Communism ensures what is mined here stays here. The free market ensures that it is sold for the most profit. China needs coal. India needs coal. Their needs aren't decreasing.

And then there's the natural gas boom. Being in PA I'm familiar with it and we have tons of it available. Enough to keep prices low for a long time.

So yes energy rates may go up but if we are sensible with our energy policy it won't be the apocalypse people are thinking,

If it's keeping energy prices low, why are rates rising?

itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA
reply to dogma

said by dogma:

I am still working up my NPV forecast but I would now like to mention in all fairness, Solar has a low ROI when viewed as a straight investment against something similar in risk like a CD (but a better ROI non the less) primarily because the principal [the Solar panels infrastructure] depreciates to zero over time in a strict financial sense. Whereas the principal [cash] of a CD as a lesser depreciation

The depreciation scam should be ignored. Since depreciation has no relation to the actual life of an asset it is a scam, plain and simple. Your "fully depreciated" solar (or any other asset) won't magically stop working once their depreciation is $0. They also won't have a value of $0 at the end of the depreciation period. Conversely it's possible that your asset will have to be declared a total loss well before its depreciated value.

It's also a scam for the law too. You loose something to theft, fire, vandalism, etc and you get "depreciated value". Good luck finding something at that price in the same condition.

So, yes depreciation should be left out.

itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA
reply to fifty nine

said by fifty nine:

We have good reason to believe that energy prices will go up as they say. Aging power plants, coal plants going offline, the rise of China and India to compete for fossil fuel, more energy consumption including electric cars, and the fed printing more and more money are reasons to believe that rates will dramatically rise.

If you're not preparing for serious rate hikes you're either ignorant of world conditions affecting the price of energy or you're old enough that you're going to die in a few years anyway and the price of energy in 20 years won't matter to you.

That's assuming we don't double down and get serious on nuclear. Then the fossil fuel argument goes out the window. And living near TMI, nuclear doesn't bother me in the least bit.

Also if the current administration gets kicked out in a month and sensible coal and energy policy come along we can get that capacity back. And by sensible energy policy I mean allowing coal and ensuring that what is mined here stays here.

And then there's the natural gas boom. Being in PA I'm familiar with it and we have tons of it available. Enough to keep prices low for a long time.

So yes energy rates may go up but if we are sensible with our energy policy it won't be the apocalypse people are thinking,

ke4pym
Premium
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC
Reviews:
·VOIPO
·ooma
·Verizon Broadban..
·Northland Cable ..
·Time Warner Cable
reply to jack b

said by jack b:

I got that... I was curious how you will measure how much power is being generated.

Other than what the net meter tells me and what the inverters tell me, I have no real plans.


tstolze
Premium
join:2003-08-08
O Fallon, MO
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to jack b

said by jack b:

I got that... I was curious how you will measure how much power is being generated.

I have a device that each inverter reports to, it uploads the data to the companies server to show it online.
»enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/publ···ZFS75933

I also use my Ted5000 to give me my usage information. It measures the mains from the meter and the feed from the array, using the 2 measurements to give me all the information I need.
--
Ofallon, Mo Weather
St. Peters, Mo Weather


jack b
Gone Fishing
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-08
Cape Cod
kudos:1
reply to ke4pym

I got that... I was curious how you will measure how much power is being generated.


ke4pym
Premium
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC
Reviews:
·VOIPO
·ooma
·Verizon Broadban..
·Northland Cable ..
·Time Warner Cable
reply to jack b

said by jack b:

How does Duke "know" how much power you generate?

Say for example at a given point in time if you're burning 4KW and your production is 4KW, the utility meter sits idle.

The net meter will record inbound and outbound energy usage. If I'm using 4kW and producing 4kW there will be no energy used from the grid. So, nothing to record.


jack b
Gone Fishing
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-08
Cape Cod
kudos:1

1 edit
reply to ke4pym

How does Duke "know" how much power you generate?

Say for example at a given point in time if you're burning 4KW and your production is 4KW, the utility meter sits idle.

Is there any method of capturing your generation production ? (other than through the Enphase Enlighten website)

I find the production data listed on Enlighten is close to what my revenue meter registers on a monthly basis, but what they are reporting is consistently somewhat higher.

My SREC's are based on total generation regardless how much of it I used myself.
--
~Help Find a Cure for Cancer~
~Proud Member of Team Discovery ~



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
reply to ke4pym

I feel bad. At 0.0532$/kWh, I'm very very left out of lifting the pro/con of switching to solar for myself.

BTW to amortize 13,000$ @ 3% (Basically, earning 3% on investment and getting the full investment back), you'd need to save about 62$ a month for 25 years.

After that, it's all savings! However, any maintenance/replacement expense during that 25 years will increase the amortization needed to make the money back.

I only see a "break even" at the end if even. I mean, roofs don't last 25 years. So to redo the roof, extra costs are incurred to remove and reinstall the panels.


ke4pym
Premium
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC
Reviews:
·VOIPO
·ooma
·Verizon Broadban..
·Northland Cable ..
·Time Warner Cable
reply to jack b

said by jack b:

I also have my own revenue-grade meter for registering solar production separately, that is installed between the fused disconnect and my load center. I submit my meter readings monthly in order to create SREC's (Solar Renewable Energy Certificates) which I then sell at a quarterly auction.

In order for me to sell energy back to Duke, they have rights to my REC's. So, I don't have to manage that.


jack b
Gone Fishing
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-08
Cape Cod
kudos:1
reply to ke4pym

Interesting that the bi-directional "existing meter" listed in the diagram is shown as "customer owned"

My power company (NSTAR) installed a co-generation configured NET meter that will "record backwards" whenever I generate more power than is used onsite.

I also have my own revenue-grade meter for registering solar production separately, that is installed between the fused disconnect and my load center. I submit my meter readings monthly in order to create SREC's (Solar Renewable Energy Certificates) which I then sell at a quarterly auction.
--
~Help Find a Cure for Cancer~
~Proud Member of Team Discovery ~


ke4pym
Premium
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC
Reviews:
·VOIPO
·ooma
·Verizon Broadban..
·Northland Cable ..
·Time Warner Cable
reply to ke4pym

Documentation and fee $$$ was sent to my utility (Duke Energy). I've received conditional approval to connect my generation facility to the grid.

Here's the line diagram that was submitted to Duke - uploaded with permission from my installer. Sorry about the size. I wanted to take my account info out and only had Photoshop and couldn't figure out how to shrink the file size.


djrobx
Premium
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·VOIPO
reply to fifty nine

said by fifty nine:

We have good reason to believe that energy prices will go up as they say. Aging power plants, coal plants going offline, the rise of China and India to compete for fossil fuel, more energy consumption including electric cars, and the fed printing more and more money are reasons to believe that rates will dramatically rise.

Right. You can count on a certain percentage just for inflation.

I think the only reason they would NOT skyrocket, would be solar's own doing - competition from solar. Depending on tier, we pay up to 3x as much per kWh as our neighbors in the city of Los Angeles (DWP). Edison claims these rates are implemented this way to "encourage conservation".

I can't see any good logical excuses why LADWP can service their customers in the same geographic region for far less than Edison. Edison charges these extortionate rates because they can.

There are already $0 down lease options that have competitive monthly fees, if those come down in price, Edison may tire of losing their business to the solar leasing companies. They just might have to respond with more reasonable pricing.
--
AT&T U-Hearse - RIP Unlimited Internet 1995-2011
Rethink Billable.


dogma
XYZ
Premium
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV
kudos:1
reply to fifty nine


10 year energy inflation chart

20 year energy inflation chart
said by fifty nine:

We have good reason to believe that energy prices will go up as they say.

Cheap energy is no more. Time to generate your own, get used to conserving or be prepared to shell out more.

You are clearly correct as evidenced in the graphs above (I understand your passion, but no need to be abrasive about it).

Anyway, it's been about [eyeball estimate] 3.4% Year-over-Year for the past 10 years. I am still working up my NPV forecast but I would now like to mention in all fairness, Solar has a low ROI when viewed as a straight investment against something similar in risk like a CD (but a better ROI non the less) primarily because the principal [the Solar panels infrastructure] depreciates to zero over time in a strict financial sense. Whereas the principal [cash] of a CD as a lesser depreciation value.

However, when viewed as a "specialized" hedge investment against inflation, the returns "should be" very good --assuming-- energy rates continue to rise based on historical trends. This is because the Solar owner has effectively fixed, or locked in his/her rates.

I will post my model based on this shortly.


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2
reply to nunya

said by nunya:

Where they tricked you is the rate increases over 10 and 25 years. They are ridiculously overinflated "guesses".
Between 1980 and 2005, the average price per residential kWh in the US went from $.0536 to $.0945 - a whopping 4.09 cent increase over 25 years (76%).

Even using today's average rate of $.127 / kWh, that's only an increase of $.0734 / kWh in the last 31 years. Bear in mind that today's prices are artificially high due to government mandates.

We have good reason to believe that energy prices will go up as they say. Aging power plants, coal plants going offline, the rise of China and India to compete for fossil fuel, more energy consumption including electric cars, and the fed printing more and more money are reasons to believe that rates will dramatically rise.

If you're not preparing for serious rate hikes you're either ignorant of world conditions affecting the price of energy or you're old enough that you're going to die in a few years anyway and the price of energy in 20 years won't matter to you.

I'm not just pulling this out of my ass. Our co-op recently had to raise rates. They had a 10 year lock in on their pricing of open market power which they couldn't renew for 10 years. It's more like year to year now and the prices are pretty much guaranteed to increase regularly.

Cheap energy is no more. Time to generate your own, get used to conserving or be prepared to shell out more.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to ncbill

said by ncbill:

The only tax on my Duke bill is a 3% state sales tax.

Which gets us nowhere near 11 cents/kWh.

So both the simple payback & IRR calculations are even worse than everyone's already calculated.

All of which also ignore maintenance & repair costs - IIRC, somebody's going to have to get up on the roof to swap out a failed micro-inverter.

said by dogma:

From the best I can figure, Duke Energy in North Carolina charges
For the first 350 kWh used per month: 9.2899� per kWh (excluding taxes which probably kicks it up to around 11� per kWh)

I don't need charts, graphs estimates. I go by what's on my bill.

8/14 to 9/13 880 kWh, cost including all taxes and fees $101.53. Cost per kWh $0.115. That's the bottom line. Two figures, kWh used and total cost.