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jack b
Gone Fishing
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-08
Cape Cod
kudos:1
reply to ke4pym

Re: I've gone and done it ... solar install

I got that... I was curious how you will measure how much power is being generated.



tstolze
Premium
join:2003-08-08
O Fallon, MO
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Charter

said by jack b:

I got that... I was curious how you will measure how much power is being generated.

I have a device that each inverter reports to, it uploads the data to the companies server to show it online.
»enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/publ···ZFS75933

I also use my Ted5000 to give me my usage information. It measures the mains from the meter and the feed from the array, using the 2 measurements to give me all the information I need.
--
Ofallon, Mo Weather
St. Peters, Mo Weather

ke4pym
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Charlotte, NC
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reply to jack b

said by jack b:

I got that... I was curious how you will measure how much power is being generated.

Other than what the net meter tells me and what the inverters tell me, I have no real plans.

itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA
reply to fifty nine

said by fifty nine:

We have good reason to believe that energy prices will go up as they say. Aging power plants, coal plants going offline, the rise of China and India to compete for fossil fuel, more energy consumption including electric cars, and the fed printing more and more money are reasons to believe that rates will dramatically rise.

If you're not preparing for serious rate hikes you're either ignorant of world conditions affecting the price of energy or you're old enough that you're going to die in a few years anyway and the price of energy in 20 years won't matter to you.

That's assuming we don't double down and get serious on nuclear. Then the fossil fuel argument goes out the window. And living near TMI, nuclear doesn't bother me in the least bit.

Also if the current administration gets kicked out in a month and sensible coal and energy policy come along we can get that capacity back. And by sensible energy policy I mean allowing coal and ensuring that what is mined here stays here.

And then there's the natural gas boom. Being in PA I'm familiar with it and we have tons of it available. Enough to keep prices low for a long time.

So yes energy rates may go up but if we are sensible with our energy policy it won't be the apocalypse people are thinking,

itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA
reply to dogma

said by dogma:

I am still working up my NPV forecast but I would now like to mention in all fairness, Solar has a low ROI when viewed as a straight investment against something similar in risk like a CD (but a better ROI non the less) primarily because the principal [the Solar panels infrastructure] depreciates to zero over time in a strict financial sense. Whereas the principal [cash] of a CD as a lesser depreciation

The depreciation scam should be ignored. Since depreciation has no relation to the actual life of an asset it is a scam, plain and simple. Your "fully depreciated" solar (or any other asset) won't magically stop working once their depreciation is $0. They also won't have a value of $0 at the end of the depreciation period. Conversely it's possible that your asset will have to be declared a total loss well before its depreciated value.

It's also a scam for the law too. You loose something to theft, fire, vandalism, etc and you get "depreciated value". Good luck finding something at that price in the same condition.

So, yes depreciation should be left out.


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2
reply to itguy05

said by itguy05:

That's assuming we don't double down and get serious on nuclear. Then the fossil fuel argument goes out the window. And living near TMI, nuclear doesn't bother me in the least bit.

Where are you going to store the waste? Is everyone going to be OK with waste stored in their back yard?

Even before we get to that, are we going to approve permits to even build the darn things? Even with a new administration, they aren't going to dismantle the EPA and NRC overnight. That takes much more than just an act of Congress.

Also if the current administration gets kicked out in a month and sensible coal and energy policy come along we can get that capacity back. And by sensible energy policy I mean allowing coal and ensuring that what is mined here stays here.

Communism ensures what is mined here stays here. The free market ensures that it is sold for the most profit. China needs coal. India needs coal. Their needs aren't decreasing.

And then there's the natural gas boom. Being in PA I'm familiar with it and we have tons of it available. Enough to keep prices low for a long time.

So yes energy rates may go up but if we are sensible with our energy policy it won't be the apocalypse people are thinking,

If it's keeping energy prices low, why are rates rising?


Jack_in_VA
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North, VA
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1 edit

1 recommendation

said by fifty nine:

If it's keeping energy prices low, why are rates rising?

Because of the EPA and Environmental Wacko's

That's why rates are rising and unless we get them under control will continue to do so.


jack b
Gone Fishing
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-08
Cape Cod
kudos:1

1 edit
reply to tstolze

I'm also using a TED-5000 with two sets of CT's and the Enphase Envoy.

I like how you have an image in the background, How'd you do that?!

I also use a free firefox add-on, Ted the toolbar, it gives me a real-time view of the system voltage and net KW while browsing. It also has full-window graphs you can launch.

»addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox···toolbar/
--
~Help Find a Cure for Cancer~
~Proud Member of Team Discovery ~


itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA
reply to fifty nine

said by fifty nine:

Even before we get to that, are we going to approve permits to even build the darn things? Even with a new administration, they aren't going to dismantle the EPA and NRC overnight. That takes much more than just an act of Congress.

But the right person can start the conversations and get the regulations changed. We need to do something and shuttering coal and nukes is not the answer.

quote:
Communism ensures what is mined here stays here. The free market ensures that it is sold for the most profit. China needs coal. India needs coal. Their needs aren't decreasing.
Nice try but that was part of Communism but Communism was more than that. It was the theory that the government owned everything, you worked and they gave you what they thought you needed.

I'm talking about our resources and keeping them here for the benefit of our people. If you think the world's oil is limited (it isn't necessarily - look up abiotic oil) it makes sense to keep what's in your ground for use by your citizens. It's just good sense.

Regulate it like a utility. We'll guarantee you a decent profit and you can pull our stuff out of the ground. In exchange all of it has to be used by our people. Or we get 90% and 10% goes to the world. China has no issues doing that with their Rare Earth minerals so why not us with our oil, coal, and natural gas reserves?

quote:
If it's keeping energy prices low, why are rates rising?

That would be a question for your utility. Our rates have been relatively stable here for a few years. Right under $.10/kWh.


tstolze
Premium
join:2003-08-08
O Fallon, MO
kudos:1
Reviews:
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reply to jack b

said by jack b:

I like how you have an image in the background, How'd you do that?!

It is an option within the array builder portion of the site. My installer was dragging their feet getting it setup, so I did it myself. If you are not able to get to it, send an image to your installer and ask them to add it.
--
Ofallon, Mo Weather
St. Peters, Mo Weather

ke4pym
Premium
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC

What's the capacity of your panels (in individual watts)?



tstolze
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join:2003-08-08
O Fallon, MO
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Reviews:
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said by ke4pym:

What's the capacity of your panels (in individual watts)?

Manufactured by Solarworld USA, 255 watt panels
--
Ofallon, Mo Weather
St. Peters, Mo Weather


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
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Reviews:
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reply to ke4pym

Received my electric bill today for Sept 13 through oct 12. 782 kWh. Cost $89.12 including all taxes and fees. Heat pump set to cool at 75 degrees 24/7.

I would be hard for me to "invest in a big loan for solar". At 69 I won't live long enough to even pay it off much less enjoy any savings "if any".



tstolze
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O Fallon, MO
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Reviews:
·Charter

said by Jack_in_VA:

Received my electric bill today for Sept 13 through oct 12. 782 kWh. Cost $89.12 including all taxes and fees. Heat pump set to cool at 75 degrees 24/7.

I would be hard for me to "invest in a big loan for solar". At 69 I won't live long enough to even pay it off much less enjoy any savings "if any".

I agree at your age the gamble would not be worth it. I will be 45 late in December, the final total on my system after rebates was $11,000. Since May 1 we have not paid for $546 worth of electric not including taxes. As a matter of fact we have produced 350 kWh more than we have used since May 1. The sun is quickly getting to a lower angle and I am seeing a decent drop in production, on the best days I am producing just over 30 kWH, in the summer we were consistently over 45 with the best day at 48 kWh.
--
Ofallon, Mo Weather
St. Peters, Mo Weather

ke4pym
Premium
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC
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2 recommendations

reply to ke4pym

Time to get the solar panels installed on the roof! I will post pictures as I can. Not sure if I should keep posting to this thread or start a new one for the pictures. Here's the schedule:

Monday - Installing all roof supports and rail systems.

Tuesday - All interior work. This will consist of roof penetrations into the attic, conduit and wire runs, mounting of disconnects, and connection into the main service panel.

Wednesday - Finish any interior work and begin installing all micro inverters.

Monday after Thanksgiving - Install all solar panels.

Tuesday- Final electrical inspection.

Wednesday- Final building inspection.



natedj
Elected
Premium
join:2001-06-06
Columbia, SC
reply to ke4pym

I vote for keeping it in this thread.


patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1
reply to fluffybunny

said by fluffybunny :

this is why you should always buy freehold never HOA. asking permission from the HOA or anyone for trivial stuff like solar panels is something to be avoided at all costs. I dont see why people *pay* someone for the privilege of asking permission and getting denied to install something in their back garden.

There is no freehold in the USA. You rent your "land" from the government at all times unless you are in a homeless shelter or prison.


workablob

join:2004-06-09
Houston, TX
kudos:3
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reply to ke4pym

This sounds damning for Solar.

»www.thestreet.com/story/11755369···ork.html

Thoughts?

Dave
--
I may have been born yesterday. But it wasn't at night.


ke4pym
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Charlotte, NC
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said by workablob:

This sounds damning for Solar.

»www.thestreet.com/story/11755369···ork.html

Thoughts?

Dave

I take exception to item #4. While shade on one panel means reduced output on the other panels ... IF a string inverter is used. I'm using microinverters. So, shade on one panel means just that one panel's output is reduced.

HarryH3
Premium
join:2005-02-21
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Reviews:
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said by ke4pym:

said by workablob:

This sounds damning for Solar.

»www.thestreet.com/story/11755369···ork.html

Thoughts?

Dave

I take exception to item #4. While shade on one panel means reduced output on the other panels ... IF a string inverter is used. I'm using microinverters. So, shade on one panel means just that one panel's output is reduced.

Read it again, they didn't say that shade on one panel reduced the output of other panels. They said that shade on one CELL reduced the output of all the cells in that array.

ke4pym
Premium
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Charlotte, NC
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said by HarryH3:

Read it again, they didn't say that shade on one panel reduced the output of other panels. They said that shade on one CELL reduced the output of all the cells in that array.

"Here's a bonus reason No. 4: Shade. A shadow on a solar array not only knocks out power to that panel, it also shuts down a wide area of panels around it."

HarryH3
Premium
join:2005-02-21
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Reviews:
·Suddenlink

said by ke4pym:

said by HarryH3:

Read it again, they didn't say that shade on one panel reduced the output of other panels. They said that shade on one CELL reduced the output of all the cells in that array.

"Here's a bonus reason No. 4: Shade. A shadow on a solar array not only knocks out power to that panel, it also shuts down a wide area of panels around it."

Read the NEXT line. The one you quoted appears to be from a clueless reporter "interpreting" what they think they heard. Then comes this quote from a somewhat more reliable source:

"Listen to the National Renewable Energy Laboratories: "the reduction in power from shading half of one cell is equivalent to removing a cell active area 36 times the shadow's actual size."

So yeah, the reporter with an axe to grind seems to have changed the intent of the message by changing one word.


djrobx
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Valencia, CA
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1 edit
reply to ke4pym

I'm at my 1 year anniversary with my solar panels.

The solar company estimated my system would output 8101kWh. It actually output 9504kWh. I have a string inverter, too.

Shade does affect performance, but they do a site survey and factor in shading into your estimated output before you purchase the system.

--
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Rethink Billable.

Expand your moderator at work


Jack_in_VA
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join:2007-11-26
North, VA
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reply to djrobx

Re: I've gone and done it ... solar install

9504kWh would be about $950 worth of electricity for me. Would not come close to paying the loan payment on the 33,000 system that would only provide at best 1/2 of my requirement.

I keep sharpening the pencil but the results are the same. Except for the wow factor for neighbors the return is just not there.


ke4pym
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Charlotte, NC
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said by Jack_in_VA:

9504kWh would be about $950 worth of electricity for me. Would not come close to paying the loan payment on the 33,000 system that would only provide at best 1/2 of my requirement.

I keep sharpening the pencil but the results are the same. Except for the wow factor for neighbors the return is just not there.

Except, at the end of the day, I'm only paying back ~$12k.

ke4pym
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reply to ke4pym

Click for full size
Main roof before.
Click for full size
Secondary roof before.
Click for full size
Getting to work.
Click for full size
Wonder where the joists are?
Click for full size
Notice the flashing. Should have a nice water tight seal.
Yesterday was a slow start. Because the install crew came from Raleigh (about 2-3 hours away) they didn't get here until about 10am. Most of the roof penetration stuff was completed on the main roof. Was rather noisy in the house yesterday.

Today they should finish with the railing system and get most, if not all of the electrical work completed.


sempergoofy
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Smyrna, GA
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1 edit
reply to ke4pym

US trade panel finds harm from China solar panels

In solar panel related news from November 7:
US trade panel finds harm from China solar panels

WASHINGTON (AP) — A federal trade panel found China responsible Wednesday for harming the U.S. solar panel industry, clearing the final hurdle for U.S. attempts to impose steep tariffs on Chinese solar companies.

The U.S. International Trade Commission voted unanimously that Chinese companies have materially injured U.S. manufacturers, affirming its 2011 vote that launched a yearlong inquiry into low-cost Chinese products that U.S manufacturers blame for putting them on the brink of collapse. (story continues)
--
nohup rm -fr /&

ke4pym
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reply to ke4pym

Re: I've gone and done it ... solar install

Click for full size
From the j-box in the attic to the load center. Only issue with the install so far is here. Would rather have seen a gromit...
Click for full size
Ingress into the small roof. Nice and weather tight! Headed to the j-box from there.
Click for full size
Micro-inverter. Sunny side up.
Click for full size
Micro-inverter. Sunny side down.
Click for full size
Load center. From here all strings are combined and sent to the disconnect panel.
Found out my panels are made in Mexico (and already purchased). So, no Chinese tariffs for me!

Good progress on the solar install yesterday and today. Small roof has the brackets and rails installed. The rail system on the main roof is complete. Except for the upper right corner. That panel area needs its rails installed.

Interconnection conduit is installed (small roof->attic, big roof->attic, attic->coming down to the meter) and almost all external cabling is pulled.

There are 3 strings of panels. With Enphase microinverters, you can only have 17 inverters on a string. My main roof has 19 panels. So, two strings. The secondary roof is the 3rd.

They will be combined into a junction box, and then into a load center. From the load center, an external disconnect and then from there into my home's panel.

Next week will see the connection of the wiring system to my breaker panel and installation of the panels themselves. Then inspections. The city and county come out twice. Then Duke comes out. Then, eventually Duke comes out again to replace the meter. Then I'll be in business.

Asked a few questions today. Asked if they had any concerns putting about 1000 pounds of weight on the top of the main roof. Nope. They completed engineering work to verify that the roof can handle the weight and that nothing would fly away.

Asked if a surge could hurt the inverters. Fact of the matter is that it can. Though they've never seen it happen (yet). They did have a commercial customer who apparently had lightning strike close and ingressed the system through the grounding system and blew up a string inverter. Oops.

Asked if lead guy was an electrician. No. However, he is licensed by the state to install PV systems. They do have a master electrician who will be on site next week to inspect and verify that everything is connected correctly.

guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:2
reply to ke4pym

That "small" roof sure has allot of shade in the picture you posted, If that is typical your wasting money putting solar there

Also, no way that run from the roof is to code, you can't use "flex" more than 6ft to meet NEC rules