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MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5

A mixture of bluster, hyperbole, and spin

I don't mind the ACLU having an opinion about things, but when they frame opinion and speculation as fact, I call shenanigans.

And you all are buying right into it.

meeeeeeeeee

join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

Re: A mixture of bluster, hyperbole, and spin

said by MyDogHsFleas:

I don't mind the United States Government having an opinion about things, but when they frame opinion and speculation as fact, I call shenanigans.

And you all are buying right into it.

I fixed it for you
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom

Re: A mixture of bluster, hyperbole, and spin

Difference is, the Constitution says the Legislative writes the laws, the Judiciary decides whether they are Constitutional, and the Executive enforces them. By definition, those are not opinions, they are in fact the law. What you, I, or the ACLU chooses to believe about these laws really doesn't change what they are. And, if you, I, or the ACLU puts a bunch of crap out there saying something that all 3 branches agree is legal, is not, then THAT is exactly spin, bluster, and hyperbole.

Look, no problem having an opinion. That is a very valid thing to have and discuss. BUT, when you say "This is unconstitutional, illegal, blah blah" and it's NOT, BY DEFINITION, that is not a good starting place for a reality based discussion.

Just say "I think the law should be changed to X by Congress" or "This law should be found unconstitutional by the courts" as an opinion. Don't pretend it is what you wish it to be already.

meeeeeeeeee

join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

Re: A mixture of bluster, hyperbole, and spin

And do ANY of those branches follow the Constitution of the United States any more? Has Amerika become a place that Stalin would be envious of?

Can YOU travel anywhere IN the US anymore without "government issued ID"? By plane, train, ANY transit? Can you email, text or talk by phone with anyone anymore without it being monitored? Is THIS what the Constitution meant for the citizens of the US?

Oh yes... there are terrorists and boogiemen behind every bush. Drink the koolaid, ask for seconds. You're fools that freely give away the rights that so many have died to give you. You deserve what you get.
--
Isn't it sad that those that raise their right hand and swear "to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America" are usually the ones most likely to trash it.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom

Re: A mixture of bluster, hyperbole, and spin

Last I checked, when new people are elected to Congress or the Presidency, the outgoing people turn over power without a problem. They follow the Constitutional processes. And, despite conspiracy theories (and some actual shenanigans, mainly in the past), elections are not rigged. These two facts stand in stark contrast to the totalitarian regimes that you refer to.

If you want to change things, get some different people elected. No need to go all revolutionary. The mechanisms are right there for you to use.

I really don't think that showing ID to travel by public transit, when multiple plots (some of which have been notably successful) threaten those travelers' lives, and having legal and Constitutional (by definition!) antiterrorist actions taken to try to stop these actions before they can happen, are really things that wars are fought over and soldiers died over. Do you?

And, yes, terrorism is real. Jihad is being preached and practiced every day. Look around you and listen to what's happening.

meeeeeeeeee

join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

Re: A mixture of bluster, hyperbole, and spin

said by MyDogHsFleas:

And, yes, terrorism is real. Jihad is being preached and practiced every day. Look around you and listen to what's happening.

The terrorists you should be concerned with are the ones filling your head with boogiemen and eroding your rights. I DO look around and see manufactured cases brought against idiots all the time. If so many boogiemen exist why are the only ones being found are the ones incited, facilitated, manufactured and entrapped by your government? If there was any real threat, would the government need to find idiots and manufacture cases? Real terrorists?? Only in your mind. Enjoy your koolaid.
--
Isn't it sad that those that raise their right hand and swear "to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America" are usually the ones most likely to trash it.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom

Re: A mixture of bluster, hyperbole, and spin

I guess the following then were manufactured cases involving idiots who posed no real threat?

2001 Nearly 3000 people killed in coordinated suicide attack using four US passenger jets to slam into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. The US Capitol building was the third target, but passengers and crew thwarted the terrorists from completing that mission, at the cost of their own lives.

2001 British man tries to blow up a USbound airliner with explosives in his shoes but is subdued by passengers and crew

2002 His business and marriage failing dismally, a depressed antiIsrael Egyptian national shoots and kills two at the El Al ticket counter at Los Angeles airport before being killed himself in an act later considered to be one of terrorism

2006 To punish the US government for actions around the world, a former student, after failing to go abroad to fight or to join the Air Force so he could drop a nuclear bomb on Washington, drives a rented SUV onto campus to run over as many Americans as possible and manages to injure nine

2009 American man travels to Middle East to get training, but fails, and on return, working as a lone wolf, eventually shoots and kills one soldier at a military recruitment center in Little Rock, AK

2009 Military psychiatrist, acting as a lone wolf, shoots up a military deployment center in Ft. Hood, TX, killing 12 soldiers and one civilian, shortly before he is supposed to be deployed to the war in Afghanistan

2009 Nigerian man tries to blow up a USbound airliner with explosives in his underwear but is subdued by passengers and crew

2010 PakistaniAmerican gets training in Pakistan and on his own tries, but fails, to set off a car bomb at Times Square in New York

These are only the ones that actually got to the point executing (or attempting to execute) the act of terrorism. Many, many others were stopped before they got to that point -- presumably by the very "unconstitutional" actions you decry.

meeeeeeeeee

join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

Re: A mixture of bluster, hyperbole, and spin

2001 British man tries to blow up a USbound airliner with explosives in his shoes but is subdued by passengers and crew

In OTHER WORDS Spying on American Citizens did absolutely no good in preventing or detecting this. Ordinary Citizens prevented the crime from happening. Not exactly worth giving up our rights for.

2002 His business and marriage failing dismally, a depressed antiIsrael Egyptian national shoots and kills two at the El Al ticket counter at Los Angeles airport before being killed himself in an act later considered to be one of terrorism

Depressed people do all kinds of irrational things. Of course, being an Egyptian national the government was only too happy to start yelling terrorist to keep you koolaid drinkers paranoid. Again, spying on American Citizens and trampling their rights did NOTHING to prevent this.

2006 To punish the US government for actions around the world, a former student, after failing to go abroad to fight or to join the Air Force so he could drop a nuclear bomb on Washington, drives a rented SUV onto campus to run over as many Americans as possible and manages to injure nine

An obviously mentally disturbed person who once again the goverment was more than happy to shout the T word about to scare all you koolaid drinkers back under your beds. And trampling the rights and freedoms of American Citizens helped to prevent this how?

2009 American man travels to Middle East to get training, but fails, and on return, working as a lone wolf, eventually shoots and kills one soldier at a military recruitment center in Little Rock, AK

Another mentaly disturbed person, another failure of trampling American Citizens' rights to make any difference.

2009 Military psychiatrist, acting as a lone wolf, shoots up a military deployment center in Ft. Hood, TX, killing 12 soldiers and one civilian, shortly before he is supposed to be deployed to the war in Afghanistan

Yet another mentally disturbed person who actually WORKED FOR the government. Trampling of Constitutional rights AGAIN did nothing to detect or prevent this. Have some more koolaid.

2009 Nigerian man tries to blow up a USbound airliner with explosives in his underwear but is subdued by passengers and crew

And the Spying on of American Citizens helped detect or prevent this how?

2010 PakistaniAmerican gets training in Pakistan and on his own tries, but fails, to set off a car bomb at Times Square in New York

Average New Yorker passes smoking car, locates and drags an NYPD officer to show him... Has to repeatedly tell officer something very wrong with this picture before officer acts. Alleged bomb removed by bomb squad who actually had a hard time detonating it as it was so poorly made. Trampling American Citizens rights assisted in thwarting this how?

These are only the ones that actually got to the point executing (or attempting to execute) the act of terrorism. Many, many others were stopped before they got to that point -- presumably by the very "unconstitutional" actions you decry.

Wake up, put down the koolaid, stop buying every bit of nonsense you are being fed. Look at the facts and THINK. The rights and freedoms being taken from the American People have not prevented, warned of, or in any way had any effect on ANY of these alleged "terrorist incidents". Most of these "Acts of Terrorism" were perpetrated by mentally unstable people with no evidence of any plot or organization. These boogiemen stories are just not worth burning the Constitution of the United States of America for. If you allow that, al Qaeda has WON. They've destroyed America.
--
Isn't it sad that those that raise their right hand and swear "to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America" are usually the ones most likely to trash it.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom

Re: A mixture of bluster, hyperbole, and spin

You missed my point that I only listed the ones that actually got to the point of attempting if not succeeding to do the actual act. Many more were stopped before that point.

Your points seem to be:

a) mentally disturbed people not terrorists
b) counterterrorism efforts didn't stop everyone
c) "rights" (no detail given) trump counterterrorism efforts

Allow me to retort.

a) sure there will always be mentally disturbed people who kill. Cf the Tucson and Aurora shootings. But Jihad tells them it's not only OK but honorable and rewarded. This raises the threat level to an organized, funded movement.

b) so that means we shouldn't try? And learn from our mistakes and do better next time?

c) you will need to get a lot more specific if you want to make this argument. What level of counterterrorism activity would be acceptable to you? Simple demagoguery and disdainful sarcasm are not getting us anywhere. Think, what would YOU do?

meeeeeeeeee

join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

Re: A mixture of bluster, hyperbole, and spin

I certainly would NOT destroy the nation and its constitution in a vain attempt to protect someone (I'm not really sure who's even being protected, the corrupt politicians and bureaucrats?) from boogiemen. I would NOT allow those in power to destroy the very freedoms that this country was founded on. I would NOT allow America to be turned into some kind of bizarre paranoid police state where the government goes unchecked while it wipes its collective behind with the constitution.

The BEST intelligence we have gotten to date has been from outside the borders of the United States. That is where we should continue to focus our efforts. If those methods lead to any involvement INSIDE the borders of the United States, the constitution and laws allow for those leads to be followed up on, IN A LEGAL MANNER, with evidence and courts and warrants, not by tromping around like a drunken elephant and stomping on everyone. I have not seen or read of ANY credible evidence of terrorism being collected by spying on American Citizens in the United States. I have only seen thousands of people's rights as Americans trampled on.

Since the death of OBL (actually, even before his death) al Qaeda has become a dead issue. They've lost much of their funding and been mired down in internal power struggles that have fractured them to tiny splinters. That's not to say that one of those splinters couldn't become organized and funded again and once again become a threat. The main course of action that should be pursued is the same as for almost every other crime. "Follow the money". OUR GOVERNMENT needs to stop cow towing to and covering up for the wealthy Saudis and Egyptians and others that finance all of this. We also need to stop pretending to be allies with and supporting countries that actively support these groups. If we're fighting a "war on terrorism" let's fight it WHERE and WITH WHO it needs to be fought. Destroying the rights and freedoms of American Citizens has NOTHING to do with that!

IF we REALLY had terrorists hiding behind every bush in this country, do you really think that we would not have the constant daily/weekly attacks that other countries who really do have large terrorist populations in them suffer with? Think of the things that we read about almost every day happening in nations like Israel. Why isn't that happening here? Because they just don't have the money or the manpower to do it.

If you are unsure about what rights I speak of, perhaps you need to read and LEARN the Declaration of Independence, The Constitution of the United States of America, and the Bill of Rights. If you truly love America, you will defend and preserve them and the ideals behind them, against ALL enemies, both foreign and domestic. Those words, those thoughts, those concepts are what makes America what it is. Do not let that be stolen from you.
--
Isn't it sad that those that raise their right hand and swear "to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America" are usually the ones most likely to trash it.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom

Re: A mixture of bluster, hyperbole, and spin

I enjoyed "cow towing". Nice imagery.

Again, no specifics here. And lots of bluster and hyperbole. And lots of vague assertions with lots of scare words about the Constitution (and you threw in the Declaration of Independence for good measure, although that has absolutely nothing to do with this), and I guess you're not aware that the Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution? And lots of assertions about the magnitude of the threats in the USA, which you (and I) actually have little knowledge of, in general. We see only what's reported, and of course when someone is actually killed, or when someone tries to kill someone and publicly fails.

I'll try to guess what you are talking about, then.

Adopting an alternative set of judges (the FISA court) for validating wiretap and pen record requests? With a specific set of rules? But done in secret so that the subjects aren't alerted? Is THAT what has you so riled up?

Seems like pretty much everyone in Congress, and two Executive branch administrations (Repub. and Dem.) disagrees with you. And, this is about 187th on the list of issues that people in general want the government to address. Show me any polls where this rises above the noise level.

You never addressed my initial suggestion, which was, hey, dude, if you don't like it, get some different people elected. That's how it works. Good luck!