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TheThing

join:2012-08-10
kudos:1
reply to TheThing

Re: No more good MMORPGs coming out?

as an example with my warrior

I put 10 trait points into one tier to get +10% movement

and then I put another 10 trait points into another tier to get +200 toughness when stunned or whatever (turtle)

you could turn it into a WoW skill tree, but the way GW2 has it layed out gives it more meaning per individual point applied than WoW



Savious
Premium
join:2012-03-05
Belgrade, MT
kudos:4

Guardian has a maximum of 18 skills available to them, and this is counting if you don't take any passives, include auto attack and the 45s cds you start with.

Wooo.
--
Jobbie told me to keep my signature the same. This is me rebelling.



Zupe
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-29
New York, NY
reply to TheThing

The problem, at least to me, isn't that the skills don't exist, it's that the large majority of them are underwhelming. On my Ranger, I feel like I'm spending 90% or more of the time auto-attacking. Sure, I have a couple of cooldowns to use if I feel like it, and I can swap weapons and use a few more in a really long fight, but most of the time then I'm standing around waiting for them to be usable again while my auto-attack does most of the damage. There also doesn't seem to be any real rotation or timing to using the skills, and very few have any synergy with each other (combo fields combo with my auto-attack, so once the combo field is down, whether my own or someone elses, I don't need to do anything to make use of them for example, I just keep auto-attacking), so it feels like hitting buttons for the sake of hitting buttons a lot of the time.

In other games, you get the skills as you go along, but those skills usually genuinely make your character feel stronger. In GW2, nothing I've gotten outside of the weapon skills themselves has really made me feel like I could tackle more challenges, or have more fun with the character. I have an extra button or two to press in the 7-0 skills, but if you took them away, I might kill things a bit slower, but there'd be no major change. Originally, I thought this might just be an issue with the Ranger, but I tried a couple of other classes for a bit and found they felt similarly.

It's unfortunate, as there are some things the game does really well, but I'm rapidly realizing that it's probably not a game that's going to hold my interest.
--
Brain: Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Pinky: I think so, Brain, but "Snowball for Windows"?



TheThing

join:2012-08-10
kudos:1
reply to TheThing

one of the differences between GW2 and WoW, is that in WoW per what was said above, some skills become irrelevant, and unused replaced by new more powerful skills

in GW2, if you use 2 sets of weapons, none of the skills become irrelevant, you use them all

also, i personally think it's excellent that you aren't using 20 skills, but 8-9, and simplifying the toolkit during combat

this simplification is required since GW2's combat relies on you actually dodging and moving... no spank and tank



Koil
Premium
join:2002-09-10
Irmo, SC
kudos:2
reply to Zupe

You should be swapping to a second weapon, and using the skills for that one while the others are on CD. You can even mix weapons combo fields and finishers.

On my Elem, I can start in Fire (using scepter dagger) drop a hellacious combo using 6-7 skills, that will generate (if you're fast) up to 10 stacks of might, all in about 5 seconds. From then, I can swap to almost any other element (I usually go with earth, but air is pretty nice as well) and then start nailing the shit out of baddies with my 10x might pumped up ass...even just the auto-attack does hellacious dmg. Flipping to Air, you drop to 2 instant attacks and then ride the lightning straight to the baddy, use updraft to knock his ass back, then swap back to fire and start the combo over again...this all happens so fast it's awesome....and I didn't even talk about having my golem out, which adds some additional dmg or perks, depending on the element.

Telling ya...it's deeper than you think. All of the standard attack abilities and combos they provide, and then the abilities you get from your traits and skill pts, which add whole other different combos, its very complex. I think you guys need to go back and look and see what builds are out there and WHY ppl are using them, there is definitely synergy between them...the whole system is built on synergy for your skills, and that's not even talking about what you can do with another complementing class that can work off of your combo fields / finishers.
--
I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do.- Edward Everett Hale

My Blog - Raising Connor



bionicRod
Funkier than a mohair disco ball.
Premium
join:2009-07-06
united state
kudos:2
reply to Savious

said by Savious:

Guardian has a maximum of 18 skills available to them, and this is counting if you don't take any passives, include auto attack and the 45s cds you start with.

Wooo.

What? Saying the Guardian has 'a maximum' of 18 skills is as crazy as saying 'end game' sucks when you didn't get within 49 levels of max before you quit. I count 30 weapon skills alone, not counting aquatic, healing, utility, elite, downed, and auxilliary skills. The GW2 wiki isn't websensed for me so here's a link:

»wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of···n_skills

I didn't copy and paste due to formatting and length, but needless to say there are way more than 18 there. You are certainly entitled to your opinion regarding the game, but number of skills isn't an opinion, and you are wrong. The difference you don't seem to like is that you don't get a button for each one; you have to choose which ones to unlock and equip at a time.

Zupe See Profile, how far did you get on your ranger? Because there are lots of utilities and abilities on my engineer that make him feel stronger. Different utilities work better in different situations. It also depends on how you're specced. A poison AOE isn't going to do much if you haven't specced into condition damage.

Bottom line: if you're playing GW2 like WoW, expecting WoW, you won't get WoW and will be disappointed. You have to put the time in and learn a new game. If you don't like it, that's your prerogative, but faulting it because it's not WoW is wildly missing the point.

Anyway this didn't start out to be a GW2 thread but got derailed lol, sorry TheThing See Profile.


Zupe
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-29
New York, NY

said by bionicRod:

Zupe See Profile, how far did you get on your ranger? Because there are lots of utilities and abilities on my engineer that make him feel stronger. Different utilities work better in different situations. It also depends on how you're specced. A poison AOE isn't going to do much if you haven't specced into condition damage.

I'm at level 58. This is the build I was working towards - »www.gw2db.com/skills/calc/ranger···0|0|0|0|
--
Brain: Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Pinky: I think so, Brain, but "Snowball for Windows"?


bionicRod
Funkier than a mohair disco ball.
Premium
join:2009-07-06
united state
kudos:2

said by Zupe:

said by bionicRod:

Zupe See Profile, how far did you get on your ranger? Because there are lots of utilities and abilities on my engineer that make him feel stronger. Different utilities work better in different situations. It also depends on how you're specced. A poison AOE isn't going to do much if you haven't specced into condition damage.

I'm at level 58. This is the build I was working towards - »www.gw2db.com/skills/calc/ranger···0|0|0|0|

Cool. You've still got a lot of points to earn and spend to further tailor your build, but you should have a decent idea by now if you're going to like the game or not. I tend to like the fact that mobs provide more of a challenge to kill than other games, and they seem to have more health in general than trash mobs in other games. That may be why you feel less powerful and it may come down to personal preference. In my experience what abilities you use when does make a difference. I'm running a DOT build and can definitely tell if I don't get that bleed or burn or poison off in a timely manner.


Savious
Premium
join:2012-03-05
Belgrade, MT
kudos:4
reply to bionicRod

18 skills I can use in a given fight. 5+5 for swap, 1 healing, 3 utility 1 ultimate. Then your 3 pseudo skills, F1-F3.
--
Jobbie told me to keep my signature the same. This is me rebelling.



bionicRod
Funkier than a mohair disco ball.
Premium
join:2009-07-06
united state
kudos:2

said by Savious:

18 skills I can use in a given fight. 5+5 for swap, 1 healing, 3 utility 1 ultimate. Then your 3 pseudo skills, F1-F3.

You can switch weapons, utilities and elites any time you're not in combat. That's where the thought comes in about what works best with what in what situations with what builds.

It's just different than you're used to is all, and it doesn't seem like your cuppa joe. But it's definitely not shallow or broken just because it's not what you're used to. If you like every skill available to you all the time with 40 buttons on your screen and endless raiding for gear at max level there's no shortage of that in the genre. I never liked that though so I am glad ANet did something different and created a world I can get immersed in.


Savious
Premium
join:2012-03-05
Belgrade, MT
kudos:4

I would enjoy a GW2 and WOW mashup alot.



Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5

You should be really diappointed with your ability options in D3 then.



Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12

But it's D3



TheThing

join:2012-08-10
kudos:1
reply to Ghastlyone

said by Ghastlyone:

You should be really diappointed with your ability options in D3 then.

+1 internets of the day


fnord76
Elder God
Premium
join:2002-05-14
Troy, IL
kudos:2
reply to I_H8_Spam

said by I_H8_Spam:

Firefall looks promising, but it's taken a while to get to market.

Rumored Elder Scrolls MMO in '13
Planetside 2 single world mmofps, in beta 12/12 release

There is also a Fallout MMO that is in testing as well.


Savious
Premium
join:2012-03-05
Belgrade, MT
kudos:4
reply to Ghastlyone

ARPG =/= MMORPG on size, scale



Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5

said by Savious:

ARPG =/= MMORPG on size, scale

So if the size and scale we're slightly smaller with GW2, you'd be ok with the given profession abilities?

I'd love to see the amount of hours you've devoted to D3 though. I can almost bet it dwarfs any recent MMO you've played.


Savious
Premium
join:2012-03-05
Belgrade, MT
kudos:4

By far, but WoW probably has more game hours logged for me than any other game, even Diablo 2.

its basically that from an mmo I want a level of immersion, depth and flexibility that I got when I started playing wow. I didn't get that feeling in rift, swtor or gw2, nor in cata.

GW2 came oh so close. I loved the questing and classes and the world in general. Vista points were fun!

But for gods sake, give me a reason to want to level! I want cool new spells every few levels!

PvP is boring! Give me a mount to get to the battles! Give me an arena! LET ME DUEL!!??
--
Jobbie told me to keep my signature the same. This is me rebelling.



bionicRod
Funkier than a mohair disco ball.
Premium
join:2009-07-06
united state
kudos:2

1 recommendation

said by Savious:

By far, but WoW probably has more game hours logged for me than any other game, even Diablo 2.

its basically that from an mmo I want a level of immersion, depth and flexibility that I got when I started playing wow. I didn't get that feeling in rift, swtor or gw2, nor in cata.

GW2 came oh so close. I loved the questing and classes and the world in general. Vista points were fun!

But for gods sake, give me a reason to want to level! I want cool new spells every few levels!

PvP is boring! Give me a mount to get to the battles! Give me an arena! LET ME DUEL!!??

I have relayed your requests to Arena Net. They answered with a resounding "NO".

Actually their response was "Fuck Saviouss. Tell that bitch to go back to D3." I didn't know you were that famous man!


Kaltes
Premium
join:2002-12-04
Los Angeles, CA
reply to Savious

I kinda agree with Saviouss. I have an 80 eng, a 50something necro, and 20something war and guardian. I've played through plenty of pvp/wvw and Orr.

Thing is, pvp is boring. Incredibly boring. WvW can be fun SOMETIMES but it is not consistent at all and most of the time it is just dead either because youre losing too badly or you won and cleared the map. Playing solo in wvw is even worse than usual. Sticking with a zerg is supremely boring to me.

WoW battlegrounds are much better than the current wvw design. Guild wars 1 pvp options are also much much better than the current gw2 pvp options. You had gvg, tournament play, random arenas, battlegrounds, and the ongoing luxon vs kurzick pseudo wvw system.

Im just burned out and bored of gw2 right now. It is easy to level. The events and hearts and map completion is superior to WoW's pve quest system (but vista points get reeeaaaaaallll old and Im sick of them now). Character customization is pretty minimal compared to GW1. GW1's character design system is why I loved it. GW2 replaced it with something that is is between wow and diablo 3.

I really really do not like cooldown-regulated skills. Guild wars 1, which has the traditional cooldown+mana/etc system, was far superior. By putting ONLY a cooldown and not having any other limiting resource, you HAVE to make good skills have absurd cooldowns, which is just lame.

You have no ability to individually select half your skills. You pick a weapon. Big deal. Each weapon is 1 skill set. You shouldnt treat them as 5 unique skills when they are really just 1 set of skills youre forced to take together.

Forcing players to take a heal skill is lame. Giving is only like 3 heals to choose from is worse, especially when there are only small variations usually.

The number of options for elite skills is very low, which is also lame. There are usually only 1 or 2 viable elites for a given class anyway.

So really we get to pick 3 skills. But even when picking those skills, we only get to choose from a pretty small list, a fraction of the size of GW1s list.

In GW1 I felt unique and special when I designed my own character skill combo. I liked secondary classes, attribute point distribution, and the huge, balanced skill list. You don't get any of that in gw2.

Considering this is an MMO, I shouldnt be bored yet, BUT I AM.



ironweasel
Weezy
Premium
join:2000-09-13
Belen, NM
kudos:1
reply to TheThing

While not new, I did see one MMORPG that you haven't tried yet....

Eve Online.

It's definitely not for everyone, but it couldn't hurt to give it a shot if you're looking for something a little different.
--
I'll be stretching out the rhyme like gravity stretches time.


Nesse

join:2009-06-12
Naperville, IL
reply to Kaltes

said by Kaltes:

I really really do not like cooldown-regulated skills. Guild wars 1, which has the traditional cooldown+mana/etc system, was far superior. By putting ONLY a cooldown and not having any other limiting resource, you HAVE to make good skills have absurd cooldowns, which is just lame.

Arent all skills cooldown regulated in some way? I find it funny that you say a GCD+Mana system is superior to an individually timed CD system.

Because spamming one attack until your out of mana sounds like SO much fun.

So a fight would go something like this "Fireball, Fireball, Fireball, Fire...shit out of mana, hes still alive... run away!"

The best part about GW2 for those that dont like it is, you can put it away for 6 months and come back whenever you want without ever having to spend another dime to see if its improved.

I personally find the game to be quite engaging, but then again, I like to take part in the dynamic events and I find the hearts to be a far superior questing design than the traditional route. They did a lot of things correctly from the start.

liquoranne

join:2009-01-14
reply to Zupe

im with zupe on the ranger bit, to an extent. for bow wielding rangers, its pretty much; start with long bow and use your 2 abilities. then its swap to short bow and autoattack. sure you can cripple and do a minimal poison volley, but it takes dps if ur running a crit/bleed build.

your other option as ranger is to go sword/torch and greatsword, melee style. now this style offers a lot more ability swaps and interaction. also you can finally do some combo moves for finishers, bows do not combo.

i dont mind the bow auto attack cause its the fastest way to 80 imo, which at that point i will decide what route i will take.



Savious
Premium
join:2012-03-05
Belgrade, MT
kudos:4
reply to Nesse

I took part in those as well and really enjoyed them. But that is only a very small chunk of the game, and does not make up for the lack of getting new toys to play with every level.
--
Jobbie told me to keep my signature the same. This is me rebelling.



I AM
Premium
join:2010-04-11
Ephrata, PA
kudos:4

As of the moment GW2 is holding up for my MMO tastes. I'm really looking forward to Firefall. If it can live up to being an open world shooter I'm all game for that. Isn't there The Elder Scrolls Online coming too?


valinrace

join:2012-10-04
reply to TheThing

Yeah for me there is no good MMO as of the moment and I am not playing any of the current ones.



TheThing

join:2012-08-10
kudos:1
reply to ironweasel

I did play EVE, and I would of continued to do so if it wasn't pay to play.

EVE is a great change of pace, and I really liked it


jofos

join:2008-02-14
Irvington, AL
reply to TheThing

Eve is very different. It can be a lot of fun but I think that getting in a good corporation is the keep to keeping it from getting stale. On the pay to play note you can always buy plex or time codes with isk. I can usually make enough in one weekend to buy a plex.



Kaltes
Premium
join:2002-12-04
Los Angeles, CA
reply to Nesse

said by Nesse:

Arent all skills cooldown regulated in some way? I find it funny that you say a GCD+Mana system is superior to an individually timed CD system.

Because spamming one attack until your out of mana sounds like SO much fun.

So a fight would go something like this "Fireball, Fireball, Fireball, Fire...shit out of mana, hes still alive... run away!"

Giving players the option of spamming one skill is good. If you think that's not fun, then don't do it? Maybe other people like to spam fireball, and make a whole build around designing their character to be capable of spamming fireball as much as possible? Good for them.

The whole point of mana is to make you make decisions about which skills to use. In a cooldown-only system a huge portion of player skill is removed because the right answer is almost always "burn everything once it is up" except very long CD skills, where it is "hope you find the right time to hit it without waiting so long that you could have just used it again anyway"

Nesse

join:2009-06-12
Naperville, IL

said by Kaltes:

Giving players the option of spamming one skill is good. If you think that's not fun, then don't do it? Maybe other people like to spam fireball, and make a whole build around designing their character to be capable of spamming fireball as much as possible? Good for them.

The whole point of mana is to make you make decisions about which skills to use. In a cooldown-only system a huge portion of player skill is removed because the right answer is almost always "burn everything once it is up" except very long CD skills, where it is "hope you find the right time to hit it without waiting so long that you could have just used it again anyway"

Sure giving players "options" is nice, but when the option isnt really an option it shouldnt count.

Example: My Ball Lightening spell does so much more damage than Fireball and because of the small difference in mana costs, I will never use Fireball. Thats not really an "option" any more than balance would be. And that would be to have a mana cost proportionate with the damage output. Thereby effectively putting it on a "Cool Down".

Either way you look at it, sooner or later, you will have to wait. Either for the timed CD, or for your mana regen.

said by Savious:

I took part in those as well and really enjoyed them. But that is only a very small chunk of the game, and does not make up for the lack of getting new toys to play with every level.

It seems like thats a small part of the game at lower levels, and while I cant speak for all of the higher level zones, the two I did had dynamic events all over the place. I dont recall the names, but I think its just below Sparkfly Fens. Theres a 70-75 zone and next to it is a 75-80 zone. One of the escort quests I did in the last zone had at least 3 other events happening as we walked past them. The escort quest was held up several times to complete the other events. Which is why I think it ended up getting borked. LOL

And you do get new skills to use, and in some cases is doesnt even require you to level up. Until you have all the options from the skill tree, you dont really stop getting skills. Now granted, you get the ones you wanted first. Meaning you get all the crap ones on the end. And each one of those events gives you karma, which means more Karma to by new shiny toys with.