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ironweasel
Weezy
Premium
join:2000-09-13
Belen, NM
kudos:1
reply to TheThing

Re: No more good MMORPGs coming out?

While not new, I did see one MMORPG that you haven't tried yet....

Eve Online.

It's definitely not for everyone, but it couldn't hurt to give it a shot if you're looking for something a little different.
--
I'll be stretching out the rhyme like gravity stretches time.

Nesse

join:2009-06-12
Naperville, IL
reply to Kaltes
said by Kaltes:

I really really do not like cooldown-regulated skills. Guild wars 1, which has the traditional cooldown+mana/etc system, was far superior. By putting ONLY a cooldown and not having any other limiting resource, you HAVE to make good skills have absurd cooldowns, which is just lame.

Arent all skills cooldown regulated in some way? I find it funny that you say a GCD+Mana system is superior to an individually timed CD system.

Because spamming one attack until your out of mana sounds like SO much fun.

So a fight would go something like this "Fireball, Fireball, Fireball, Fire...shit out of mana, hes still alive... run away!"

The best part about GW2 for those that dont like it is, you can put it away for 6 months and come back whenever you want without ever having to spend another dime to see if its improved.

I personally find the game to be quite engaging, but then again, I like to take part in the dynamic events and I find the hearts to be a far superior questing design than the traditional route. They did a lot of things correctly from the start.

liquoranne

join:2009-01-14
reply to Zupe
im with zupe on the ranger bit, to an extent. for bow wielding rangers, its pretty much; start with long bow and use your 2 abilities. then its swap to short bow and autoattack. sure you can cripple and do a minimal poison volley, but it takes dps if ur running a crit/bleed build.

your other option as ranger is to go sword/torch and greatsword, melee style. now this style offers a lot more ability swaps and interaction. also you can finally do some combo moves for finishers, bows do not combo.

i dont mind the bow auto attack cause its the fastest way to 80 imo, which at that point i will decide what route i will take.


Savious
Premium
join:2012-03-05
Belgrade, MT
kudos:4
reply to Nesse
I took part in those as well and really enjoyed them. But that is only a very small chunk of the game, and does not make up for the lack of getting new toys to play with every level.
--
Jobbie told me to keep my signature the same. This is me rebelling.


I AM
Premium
join:2010-04-11
Ephrata, PA
kudos:4
As of the moment GW2 is holding up for my MMO tastes. I'm really looking forward to Firefall. If it can live up to being an open world shooter I'm all game for that. Isn't there The Elder Scrolls Online coming too?

valinrace

join:2012-10-04
reply to TheThing
Yeah for me there is no good MMO as of the moment and I am not playing any of the current ones.


TheThing

join:2012-08-10
kudos:1
reply to ironweasel
I did play EVE, and I would of continued to do so if it wasn't pay to play.

EVE is a great change of pace, and I really liked it

jofos

join:2008-02-14
Irvington, AL
reply to TheThing
Eve is very different. It can be a lot of fun but I think that getting in a good corporation is the keep to keeping it from getting stale. On the pay to play note you can always buy plex or time codes with isk. I can usually make enough in one weekend to buy a plex.


Kaltes
Premium
join:2002-12-04
Los Angeles, CA
reply to Nesse
said by Nesse:

Arent all skills cooldown regulated in some way? I find it funny that you say a GCD+Mana system is superior to an individually timed CD system.

Because spamming one attack until your out of mana sounds like SO much fun.

So a fight would go something like this "Fireball, Fireball, Fireball, Fire...shit out of mana, hes still alive... run away!"

Giving players the option of spamming one skill is good. If you think that's not fun, then don't do it? Maybe other people like to spam fireball, and make a whole build around designing their character to be capable of spamming fireball as much as possible? Good for them.

The whole point of mana is to make you make decisions about which skills to use. In a cooldown-only system a huge portion of player skill is removed because the right answer is almost always "burn everything once it is up" except very long CD skills, where it is "hope you find the right time to hit it without waiting so long that you could have just used it again anyway"

Nesse

join:2009-06-12
Naperville, IL
said by Kaltes:

Giving players the option of spamming one skill is good. If you think that's not fun, then don't do it? Maybe other people like to spam fireball, and make a whole build around designing their character to be capable of spamming fireball as much as possible? Good for them.

The whole point of mana is to make you make decisions about which skills to use. In a cooldown-only system a huge portion of player skill is removed because the right answer is almost always "burn everything once it is up" except very long CD skills, where it is "hope you find the right time to hit it without waiting so long that you could have just used it again anyway"

Sure giving players "options" is nice, but when the option isnt really an option it shouldnt count.

Example: My Ball Lightening spell does so much more damage than Fireball and because of the small difference in mana costs, I will never use Fireball. Thats not really an "option" any more than balance would be. And that would be to have a mana cost proportionate with the damage output. Thereby effectively putting it on a "Cool Down".

Either way you look at it, sooner or later, you will have to wait. Either for the timed CD, or for your mana regen.

said by Savious:

I took part in those as well and really enjoyed them. But that is only a very small chunk of the game, and does not make up for the lack of getting new toys to play with every level.

It seems like thats a small part of the game at lower levels, and while I cant speak for all of the higher level zones, the two I did had dynamic events all over the place. I dont recall the names, but I think its just below Sparkfly Fens. Theres a 70-75 zone and next to it is a 75-80 zone. One of the escort quests I did in the last zone had at least 3 other events happening as we walked past them. The escort quest was held up several times to complete the other events. Which is why I think it ended up getting borked. LOL

And you do get new skills to use, and in some cases is doesnt even require you to level up. Until you have all the options from the skill tree, you dont really stop getting skills. Now granted, you get the ones you wanted first. Meaning you get all the crap ones on the end. And each one of those events gives you karma, which means more Karma to by new shiny toys with.


Kaltes
Premium
join:2002-12-04
Los Angeles, CA
said by Nesse:

Example: My Ball Lightening spell does so much more damage than Fireball and because of the small difference in mana costs, I will never use Fireball. Thats not really an "option" any more than balance would be. And that would be to have a mana cost proportionate with the damage output. Thereby effectively putting it on a "Cool Down".

Just because mana and cooldowns are both bottlenecks to skill use doesn't make them the same. It makes sense to use both. If you use purely mana and zero cooldowns, then each skill is spammable and so much be balanced for that, which is not ideal. If you use ONLY cooldowns, then each skill must be balanced by increasing its cooldown, which leads to much more boring play as these skills are used far less often.

Mana punishes bad players who use skills unwisely and rewards good players who effectively manage it, by allowing them to use more/better skills in the same span of time. In a cooldown-only system, all players will use the same skills over the same period of time.

The vast majority of games used a combination of mana + modest cooldowns. Eliminating resource management was a diablo-3-esque step in the wrong direction to oversimplification and dumbing down.

Part of the fun of Guild Wars 1 was how each class had a different mana management mechanic and how these mechanics made each class feel more distinct and play differently.


captokita
Premium
join:2005-02-22
Calabash, NC
reply to Ghastlyone
said by Ghastlyone:

Getting a character to level 10 and quitting and then complaining about how there's no "end game" is beyond retarded.

Well, I'm not one to complain about endgame content, but I quit RIFT after getting 2 toons to lvl 20 I think, because it was just so dull and boring. I'm not going to sink even MORE time into it if the grind to 20 was horrible, I could only imagine what the grind to cap would've been.

The problem with mmorpg's is they will all be compared to WoW, even if they're not remotely the same.

Personally, I would love to see a Transformers MMO, I think that would be cool, but would only appeal to TF fans.

Nesse

join:2009-06-12
Naperville, IL
reply to Kaltes
said by Kaltes:

Just because mana and cooldowns are both bottlenecks to skill use doesn't make them the same. It makes sense to use both. If you use purely mana and zero cooldowns, then each skill is spammable and so much be balanced for that, which is not ideal. If you use ONLY cooldowns, then each skill must be balanced by increasing its cooldown, which leads to much more boring play as these skills are used far less often.

Mana punishes bad players who use skills unwisely and rewards good players who effectively manage it, by allowing them to use more/better skills in the same span of time. In a cooldown-only system, all players will use the same skills over the same period of time.

The vast majority of games used a combination of mana + modest cooldowns. Eliminating resource management was a diablo-3-esque step in the wrong direction to oversimplification and dumbing down.

Part of the fun of Guild Wars 1 was how each class had a different mana management mechanic and how these mechanics made each class feel more distinct and play differently.

The original point was that both systems should effectively do similar things. Which is preventing the spamming of an "I Win" button. One is simply better in your mind because you feel like you have more freedom because the rigid recast timer isnt visibly ticking away. Not that you actually have more freedom.

That said, a bad player is a bad player and will be bad under both systems. Sure he could be bad in different ways. Under a mana system it could lead to spamming, whenever possible. Under both, it could be leading out with your highest damage attack, pulling aggro and getting instagibbed. It could be more subtle. Could be the player never uses his dots and/or debuffs, or only does so after using everything else.

As is often the case with MMOs.... builds will be created that are more effective. Rotations will be theory-crafted to death for optimum goals. Eventually, there will be one "preferred" choice. So you may have more "options" under a Mana system, but again... its not really an option unless you dont care if you play poorly.


Kaltes
Premium
join:2002-12-04
Los Angeles, CA
spamming is bad play with mana because youll go oom and be useless, but spamming is pretty much the only way you can play in a cooldown game. after all, if you arent burning your cooldowns every chance you get, youre handicapping yourself.

mana does give more freedom. with cooldowns, you are locked in how many times you can use each skill per minute, and for most skills, everyone will use them the maximum, which will be somewhere between 1 to 6 uses depending on cooldowns of 10 to 60 seconds. You use all those cooldowns as much as possible and then spend your leftover time spamming your weaker "1" skill.

if you have fireball 10s, lightning 20s, and blizzard 60s, it is pretty much guaranteed you will use them 6, 3, and 1 time per minute respectively.

by contrast, with mana, you have the freedom to choose which combination of skills you will use. You won't necessarily use that fireball, lightning, and blizzard 6 3 and 1. Maybe you will change it up. You'll still be limited, but what if you decide to go 0 0 3? What if you decide to go 14 2 0? With mana, you actually have the freedom to play in a different and more unique fashion. Maybe one spell is better suited to close range dps, one is better suited to kiting, and one is better suited to long range sniping? Your playstyle can be completely different from mine because we choose to spend our mana differently and therefore we have the freedom to adopt different playstyles/tactics.

With a cooldown system, everyone is pretty much required to use every skill as much as they can, except for the "1" skill, which is by definition inferior to the 2-5 skills. So everyone plays more or less the same. Playlist is dictated by the skills not vice versa.

If you see an engineer using a rifle, you KNOW that he HAS to get very close to you to properly use his shotgun blast and jump attack. The cooldown system means that engineers are pretty much forced to all use the same jump -> shotgun -> knockback combo, or else they simply wont do even close to as much as their potential DPS.

In a mana system, that same rifle engineer MIGHT adopt a totally different playstyle. For example, he might focus on using net shot and shotgun blast to keep a target close and unload heavy damage. A different engineer might focus on net shot and knockback to lock down targets for his friends to kill. Another might focus on auto attacks, net shot, and jump shot in order maximize his mobility. The point is, you could have completely different playstyles all because mana allows the player to choose which skills to focus on, whereas cooldowns force all players to play how the devs want them to play.

Nesse

join:2009-06-12
Naperville, IL
You are acting as though the "freedom" of choice with mana is a real choice. Its no more a choice than a timed CD system.

In a mana system, you can either spam your most powerful spell or you cant. If you cant, its because the mana use exceeds the amount of mana you have. Forcing you to wait until you do have enough mana. A cooldown all in its own right. If you can, you have no reason to use an inferior spell that does less damage. So again.. no real choices are being made.

The differences in your Mana Engineer, at least in one situation, is relying on group play, when there is no mention of a friends with the other two. So naturally the play style is going to be different for him. As for a mobile "auto attack" playstyle.... Really? An auto attacking mobile mana engineer wouldnt be deemed a "bad" player in your book, even if it was taking him 2 or 3 times the amount of time to kill a mob than other engineer?


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
Every good game doesn't rely on JUST a CD system to make it fun. LoL is a fantastic example because almost every resource system is there. The few champs that have no resource at all (not counting champs like Vlad since his spells cost health), like Katarina, get increased CDR for each kill they get. In a MOBA that makes sense--in an MMORPG, it's just boring and OP.

I'm actually disappointed that with the 100+ champs we see in League using everything from mana, to health, to decaying fury, to regenerating fury (Shyvana), to [combo] points (Rengar) as resources, we see nothing approaching the same complexity in MMORPGs. That's not counting your slow, heavy-hitting auto-attackers (that stack physical damage) to your fast, critty auto-attackers (that stack attack speed).

MMOs stick to decaying fury (warriors) and mana (everyone else). Sometimes you might get combo points and regenerating fury for rogue/thief characters. They need to get with the program.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


90115534
Someone is sabotaging me.Finding out who
Premium
join:2001-06-03
Kenner, LA
reply to TheThing
There is The War Z coming out which I can't wait! »thewarz.com/

Edit: Oh wow just noticed it is coming out in 8 days!