 John GaltForward, MarchPremium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:5
1 edit | OT - Site Monitoring Device - Input Needed I have a small project that I am engineering, and have given some thought to putting it into "mass production". In my view, it has an application within the WISP community, and yields a positive cost/benefit ratio.
Essentially, it is a small box that is attached to your network at your POP site by Cat5 cable. For WISP use, it has eight (8) channels configured as such:
• Channel 1 - Temperature (Analog Input)
• Channel 2 - Battery voltage (Analog Input)
• Channel 3 - Door Contact (Digital Input)
• Channel 4 - Door Contact (Digital Input)
• Channel 5 - Available (Digital Input)
• Channel 6 - Available (Digital Output)
• Channel 7 - SPDT Relay #1 (Digital Output)
• Channel 8 - SPDT Relay #2 (Digital Output)
The objective is to measure the local battery temperature, measure the local battery voltage, monitor the doors/cabinets and give you the capability to turn on fans or lights as needed.
This is a network-accessible device, and is polled as necessary to return the most current values. It returns CSV data and can be used in any fashion (think Excel).
This device can be powered by wall-wart or POE, so it is flexible in that regard.
It has minimum "bells-and-whistles" for local observation...indicators are Link, Data and Action. Link indicates that a link is established with the upstream device, Data indicates that data transmission is taking place, and Action indicates that some action has been taken by the device. It is presumed that the people using this device understand it and can use it appropriately.
My target retail pricing for this device is $79. Now, my question(s) to you are this:
1 - Does this device respond to a need that you have (for example, remote monitoring)?
2 - Does the price seem fair for its capabilities?
With this device, you can interrogate the status of your remote site at any time, without making the physical trip.
Is this of value to you?
Inquiring minds want to know...! 
--
The most powerful weapon in the world is ignorance. Politicians exploit it to achieve almost anything they want.
|
|
 funkyfeltyArmament For Peace
join:2002-10-01
Lebanon, PA | I saw that it can be polled, but can it send traps?
If it can send traps, I would buy a few. It is actually hard to find a board that does all of that.
--
Soldier, Firefighter, Proud to be an American |
|
John GaltForward, MarchPremium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:5 | Traps are available in the next device up...the "Advanced". Of course, it has more features including wireless and more computational functionality. Think 'standalone device".
Just to cut the suspense in advance  , there is a "Professional" device being considered for $199 that does everything (more channels (16) and dual band wifi). |
|
|
|
| What is the self consumption wattage of the standard device? Sounds like exactly what I am looking for (Mikrotik voltage monitoring is so inconsistent, and I am currently working on interfacing the Morningstar serial connector right now), so you could sign me up for 5 at that price. |
|
John GaltForward, MarchPremium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:5 | reply to John Galt
The objective is to learn what constitutes the maximum functionality for the least cost...and what that particular price-point is.
In other words, at what point would you consider stop driving and buy one of these devices to monitor your site? |
|
| reply to John Galt
Sounds similar, but better than the mFi, in that it has way more channels.
Can it do email alerts? What i'd like to see is,
-outdoor temp
-An alert that tells me when the box power has gone out and when you're on UPS, so i can get out there with a gen set
-email alerts
-data/event logging
-maybe a current sensor to monitor power draw. |
|
| reply to John Galt
$100, because I can do it "close enough" with other equipment |
|
John GaltForward, MarchPremium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:5 | reply to John Galt
The hardware designer is confronted with many choices when engineering the device. In this project, there are three variations of the device, each with three considerations:
BASIC $79
1 - Cost
2 - Functionality
3 - Expandability
ADVANCED $139
1 - Functionality
2 - Cost
3 - Expandability
PROFESSIONAL $199
1 - Expandability
2 - Functionality
3 - Cost
The target retail price is shown since there needs to be some constraint on the cost. Otherwise, "mission creep" occurs and you get a product with a cost that exceeds the willingness of the customer to purchase it.
There's always somebody who wants to add "just one more thing".
--
The most powerful weapon in the world is ignorance. Politicians exploit it to achieve almost anything they want.
|
|
John GaltForward, MarchPremium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:5 | reply to prairiesky
said by prairiesky:Sounds similar, but better than the mFi, in that it has way more channels.
Can it do email alerts? What i'd like to see is,
-outdoor temp
-An alert that tells me when the box power has gone out and when you're on UPS, so i can get out there with a gen set
-email alerts
-data/event logging
-maybe a current sensor to monitor power draw.
This functionality is available on the Advanced device. The Advanced and Professional devices have the computational power to do any task a computer can do and hence the same functionality.
I am considering optional add-on sensor packs...temp, current, photocell to make it easy to install in the field.
The Advanced and Professional devices have USB so the use of a UPS with connectivity shouldn't be an issue.
Email, SMS, FTP, scheduling and such are no problem.
--
The most powerful weapon in the world is ignorance. Politicians exploit it to achieve almost anything they want.
|
|
John GaltForward, MarchPremium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:5 | reply to jcraner
said by jcraner :What is the self consumption wattage of the standard device? Sounds like exactly what I am looking for (Mikrotik voltage monitoring is so inconsistent, and I am currently working on interfacing the Morningstar serial connector right now), so you could sign me up for 5 at that price.
For the Basic device, as low as possible. My thinking is that it should be optimized for low-power solar installations. For example, the indicator LEDs (which are SMD) could be disabled.
--
The most powerful weapon in the world is ignorance. Politicians exploit it to achieve almost anything they want.
|
|
| reply to John Galt
I think it's a great idea, provided it fixes the problem that I commonly see with other manufacturers and that is *FULL* support for things like SNMP, or other "open" protocols.
I can/do homebrew most of this stuff for a lower cost, and the honest reason why I don't bother with any pre-built solutions is they all lack simple options like this. You either are stuck using some 3rd party software for monitoring and control, or it speaks some obscure broken version of SNMP, just to fuck you up from using other vendors etc.
I can see a lot of these issues being addressed by Ubnt's Mfi, but from what I'm gathering more and more, the units don't support a lot of basic things that people want, or they are tied into some specific software.
What I loath the most with these devices is the lack of all around sensor inputs. Oh you want temperatures, that's an upgrade, this one only gives contacts... Oh you want voltage with that too? Go up to a higher model.
The "base" version should have at least ONE of everything, then the higher level ones should be multiple ones etc for a larger site deployment.
The absolute base should be
-TEMP
-VOLTS
-2 Contacts
-2 Relays
(Which is what I think you have here)
Also they should include the sensor for each contact.
Let's be honest to build a temperature sensor is peanuts, but I see asshole companies selling them for 40-99$ each.
Put the sensors with the package so there's no "option" crap (At least with base model) and it makes it worth considering.
Also, sensors should obviously speak "English" and not output some other obscure signal that nothing else understands, or works with. Again I can't believe how many vendors "dick" with their sensors just to make them incompatible with anything standard. |
|
| reply to John Galt
|
|
| reply to John Galt
Most of those are overpriced, and lack a lot of basics (A few of them have either limited or no SNMP support, and that qualifies as the dirt basic necessity)
That's what kinda pisses me off with the sensor/monitoring products out there. They are wickedly overpriced shit. There's nothing in there that even costs a 20th of what it takes to build them, and the software that drives them are absolutely horrible. Use MT or Ubnt as an example, the hardware is also dirt cheap, but a lot goes into programming them.
(Yeah that's another gripe, I've never seen a single sensor board driven by any kind of software/interface that was reliable, or even "decent" as far as I'm concerned)
The best interface I've ever seen in any kind of package like these is the DLI interface for their power relay stuff, and that interface is HORRIBLE, and lacks SNMP, but it's still better than most of the above stuff. (Minus the heavy duty $5K site monitoring systems used by the big carriers, I've never seen a decent interface on any sub $1K relay/monitoring box) |
|
John GaltForward, MarchPremium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:5 | reply to imanon
said by imanon :I'm a little confused - how do you think your going to sell this 'new' device when plenty of these already exists in the market... Price my device functionality using the devices you suggested then get back to me.
This is good (we're thinking along the same lines), but lacks the number of I/O that my device has.
The other issue is having the conditioning right on the board so the user doesn't have to deal with that aspect of it. It is easy enough to do, but most people don't have that knowledge.
My professional experience is in industrial instrumentation and controls, so I know the market pretty well. I know what things cost.
Pricing on these devices is paramount. It drives everything. The objective is to drive the price low by using every advantage that the current technologies offer. By using non-bleeding edge devices (because they are not needed in this application), it is possible to reduce the cost significantly.
--
The most powerful weapon in the world is ignorance. Politicians exploit it to achieve almost anything they want.
|
|
John GaltForward, MarchPremium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:5 | reply to voxframe
said by voxframe:Also, sensors should obviously speak "English" and not output some other obscure signal that nothing else understands, or works with. Again I can't believe how many vendors "dick" with their sensors just to make them incompatible with anything standard.
The I/O will accept industry-standard 4-20mA and 0-10V. |
|
public
join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA | reply to John Galt
said by John Galt:My professional experience is in industrial instrumentation and controls, so I know the market pretty well. I know what things cost.
Pricing on these devices is paramount. It drives everything. The objective is to drive the price low by using every advantage that the current technologies offer. By using non-bleeding edge devices (because they are not needed in this application), it is possible to reduce the cost significantly.
A board with similar functionality sells on ebay for $20.
While old company industrial buyers are willing to pay $600 for $25 shaft encoder, you may not be able to easily reach that market.
If you select a good distribution channel, even a me too product can be successful. |
|
Chele
join:2003-07-23
kudos:1 | reply to John Galt
said by John Galt:The I/O will accept industry-standard 4-20mA and 0-10V. Make it able to handle up to 36v so that it can be connected directly to solar power systems. We have had to use voltage regulators only because UBNT won't work on anything above 24-25v, my gripe with that is not the cost of the voltage regulator but it's just one more piece that can fail. Let the units have dual input sensors--one to measure the solar feed and another to measure battery condition. I know it's going above and beyond your initial intentions, buuuuuut-----------make a unit with remote rebooting/ping watchdog capabilities. It goes without saying, make it rugged! It's amazing the working conditions we subject the equipment to and ask(demand!!) that they work reliably. As always, pricing is an issue--most WISPs will have several POPs and it begins to add up. |
|
John GaltForward, MarchPremium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:5 | said by Chele:Make it able to handle up to 36v so that it can be connected directly to solar power systems. Units will accept up to 48V at either the power connector or POE.Let the units have dual input sensors--one to measure the solar feed and another to measure battery condition. I know it's going above and beyond your initial intentions, buuuuuut-----------make a unit with remote rebooting/ping watchdog capabilities. It goes without saying, make it rugged! It's amazing the working conditions we subject the equipment to and ask(demand!!) that they work reliably. As always, pricing is an issue--most WISPs will have several POPs and it begins to add up.
--
The most powerful weapon in the world is ignorance. Politicians exploit it to achieve almost anything they want.
|
|
Chele
join:2003-07-23
kudos:1 | Well, never mind, if you're going to be difficult about it Put me down on your list, it sounds promising! |
|
 CMack
join:2004-07-30
canada | reply to John Galt
here is one sold in Canada John, we have used them before »www.remotemonitoringsystems.ca/r···ndex.php |
|
