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88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

BS from the anti-6 strikes side

The plan has seen fierce criticism from the EFF and some researchers because it assumes guilt before innocence and requires users pay a $35 fee just for the honor of defending themselves against accusations

If I get arrested for a crime, the cops think I did it( ie GUILTY of said crime ) before I've had a trial. Thus I have to pay to prove I am not guilty.

If I am sued in a civil case I have to pay to defend myself. The court doesn't investigate and decides I'm not guilty BEFORE a trial. That's the whole point of a trial.

ISPs have traditionally been legally terrified of this entire affair, refusing to talk in any detail about their piracy mitigation measures -- in part because they've falsely accused people in the past and are worried about legal liability for screwing up.

It would be incredibly bad luck to be falsely accused 6 times in a row. Something akin to being struck by lightning while being eaten by a shark.

Considering the "penalty" the first 5 strikes is a letter and the penalty for the 6th strike is um NOTHING( maybe throttling ) I'm not seeing the point of all the hub bub.

If you're accused of rape, sure there is a chance you are could be falsely accused. Happens all the time. However if you are accused 6 times in a row there is no way you are not guilty.

axus

join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC
Reviews:
·Comcast

1 recommendation

You don't have to prove your guilt or innocence to police. You aren't going to talk your way out of getting arrested, that's based on what they observe.

Nobody has a problem defending themselves in court. The problem is a process that bypasses the courts and has ISPs making quasi-legal judgments, when they aren't an impartial observer.

If you're falsely accused once by an automated process, it's likely that the broken process which accused you will repeatedly generate the same result. That's why you need an independent judge/jury to analyze the process, instead of being judged by the same company that made the broken process in the first place.

Rekrul

join:2007-04-21
Milford, CT
reply to 88615298
said by 88615298:

If I get arrested for a crime, the cops think I did it( ie GUILTY of said crime ) before I've had a trial. Thus I have to pay to prove I am not guilty.

If I am sued in a civil case I have to pay to defend myself.

The difference is that you aren't paying money to the people who are accusing you. No court says "If you want to plead 'not guilty', you'll have to first pay us $100."

said by 88615298:

It would be incredibly bad luck to be falsely accused 6 times in a row.

Unless you leave your WiFi open for others to use, which despite much propaganda from the entertainment industry, is not a crime.

said by 88615298:

Considering the "penalty" the first 5 strikes is a letter and the penalty for the 6th strike is um NOTHING( maybe throttling ) I'm not seeing the point of all the hub bub.

There's no formal penalty for any of the strikes. That's left up to the ISP, which can terminate your account. Also, all of the information on accused subscribers is sent to the copyright holders who can decide to sue.

said by 88615298:

If you're accused of rape, sure there is a chance you are could be falsely accused. Happens all the time. However if you are accused 6 times in a row there is no way you are not guilty.

Actually, I can't find a reference now, but several years ago, there were a string of rapes in one city and all of the witnesses positively IDed the same guy, even though he had alibis for each of the rapes. The police finally discovered that it was another guy who looked enough like the first guy to be his brother. As I recall, the show Law & Order SVU used it as the basis for one of their episodes.

Considering that researchers were able to trick the copyright industry into sending infringement notices to a networked printer's IP address (a device incapable of reproducing movies or music), it's not impossible that someone else could cause you to be mistakenly sent infringement notices.


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
reply to axus
said by axus:

You don't have to prove your guilt or innocence to police. You aren't going to talk your way out of getting arrested, that's based on what they observe.

If you get arrested for child molestation, even if you're 100% innocent you're not going to look that way for a LONG time.

The fact that legally you are INNOCENT until proven guilty doesn't mean you can not be accused of committing crime so how is this different.

Nobody has a problem defending themselves in court. The problem is a process that bypasses the courts

You want to go to court over a fucking letter that doesn't even have any teeth? Seriously?

and has ISPs making quasi-legal judgments, when they aren't an impartial observer.

Police arrest you because they think you are guilty of a crime even though you haven't been to court. They are making judgments are they not? And face it cops are hardly impartial.

If you're falsely accused once by an automated process, it's likely that the broken process which accused you will repeatedly generate the same result. That's why you need an independent judge/jury to analyze the process, instead of being judged by the same company that made the broken process in the first place.

Hyperbole. I'm sure plenty of people will claim they have been falsely accused. Most of them are full of shit. 100% of those accused of rape say they were falsely accused, maybe 2% actually are.

Maybe we should abolish rape laws so those 2% don't suffer needlessly. Oh hey hyperbole is awesome!


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
reply to Rekrul
said by Rekrul:

[The difference is that you aren't paying money to the people who are accusing you. No court says "If you want to plead 'not guilty', you'll have to first pay us $100."

Have you even been to court? Every time you show up to court it is going to cost you money. That's why they have thing called COURT COSTS. Not to mention the money you pay your lawyer just for him to show up in court for you to plead NOT GUILTY. It's more than $35 trust me.

said by 88615298:

Unless you leave your WiFi open for others to use, which despite much propaganda from the entertainment industry, is not a crime.

It's not a crime for me to leave my car door unlocked and have the keys inside. It's not very smart either. Only a dumbass would have open Wi-Fi on a residential connection. That's just a lame excuse.

said by 88615298:

There's no formal penalty for any of the strikes. That's left up to the ISP, which can terminate your account. Also, all of the information on accused subscribers is sent to the copyright holders who can decide to sue.

If you actually read the law you can not be disconnected for a 6th strike.

Sure an ISP can disconnect you, but that's part of their TOS which they have had for YEARS. So technically they can cut you off after ONE strike if they choose. And they will maintain that right even if this law were to be abolished.

said by 88615298:

Actually, I can't find a reference now, but several years ago, there were a string of rapes in one city and all of the witnesses positively IDed the same guy, even though he had alibis for each of the rapes. The police finally discovered that it was another guy who looked enough like the first guy to be his brother. As I recall, the show Law & Order SVU used it as the basis for one of their episodes.

That's ONE incidence in my book. Once a guy is arrested for rape other victims can be convinced that that guy did it, especially if the new media make him seem 100% guilty and the cops encourage then to finger the guy. I'm talking about 6 completely separate and non connected rapes.

Considering that researchers were able to trick the copyright industry into sending infringement notices to a networked printer's IP address (a device incapable of reproducing movies or music), it's not impossible that someone else could cause you to be mistakenly sent infringement notices.

The word RESEARCHERS. Please enough with the rare weird examples to prove a point. Just because there have been proven case where earing a seatbelt actually caused a death where there wouldn't otherwise be one doesn't mean you stop wearing seatbelts.

I can find a guy that smoked 3 packs a day and drank a fifth of whisky a day and lived to be 100. That doesn't mean that will happen to everyone.

axus

join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to 88615298
Rape laws are fine, a judge and jury will need to be convinced by DNA evidence, testimony, etc. It's fine to be arrested for a crime you didn't commit, as long as you have bail, a speedy trial, and the other protections that America was created for.

I don't see being arrested as a punishment. It's a system for holding you in custody (arrest) until it's almost sure that you will appear in court, or it's obvious that court is not needed. Nobody should be prejudged for merely an arrest.

People can judge you in their mind for evidence that led to the arrest. If there's a kid telling everyone you molested them, schools/daycares/whatever should err on the side of caution. An ISP isn't being harmed when MPAA is telling everyone you're uploading their movies.

ISPs are already sending letters out to people accused of infringement. That's great, the innocent are informed that something is making them look bad and track it down, the guilty get a chance to stop what they are doing. By all means, keep sending the letters. It's the internet disconnections I have a problem with.

Rekrul

join:2007-04-21
Milford, CT
reply to 88615298
said by 88615298:

Have you even been to court?

Only once for jury duty (where after making me come in at 8:00AM and then waiting all afternoon, they told me they didn't even need any jurors that day).

said by 88615298:

It's not a crime for me to leave my car door unlocked and have the keys inside. It's not very smart either.

If someone steals you car because you left it unlocked with the keys in it, and uses it in a crime, do you get charged?

said by 88615298:

Only a dumbass would have open Wi-Fi on a residential connection. That's just a lame excuse.

If you leave your car unlocked with the keys in it and it gets stolen, you no longer have your car. If you leave your WiFi open, you still have it, and your neighbors can share it. Or is sharing now considered bad? Should parents be teaching children not to share? Maybe when some kid wants some of little Bobby's candy, he should be rewarded for yelling "Get your own!"

said by 88615298:

If you actually read the law you can not be disconnected for a 6th strike.

It's not actually a law. There is no law one way or the other. Which means that customers don't have any legal protection in this agreement.

said by 88615298:

The word RESEARCHERS. Please enough with the rare weird examples to prove a point.

Yes, because it's not like there are hackers who can and will crack WiFi passwords or spoof IP addresses to hide their activities. I mean, that would be like the equivalent of building a fancy tone generator to scam the phone company out of long-distance charges or to get free calls at a pay phone, and we all know that those things never happened...


NOCTech75
Premium
join:2009-06-29
Marietta, GA
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to 88615298
said by 88615298:

The plan has seen fierce criticism from the EFF and some researchers because it assumes guilt before innocence and requires users pay a $35 fee just for the honor of defending themselves against accusations

If I get arrested for a crime, the cops think I did it( ie GUILTY of said crime ) before I've had a trial. Thus I have to pay to prove I am not guilty.

No... no you don't.


cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7
reply to 88615298
said by 88615298:

If I get arrested for a crime, the cops think I did it( ie GUILTY of said crime ) before I've had a trial. Thus I have to pay to prove I am not guilty.

Unless you can not in which case a lawyer will be appointed. It may not be as good of a defense, but you don't have to pay.

If I am sued in a civil case I have to pay to defend myself. The court doesn't investigate and decides I'm not guilty BEFORE a trial. That's the whole point of a trial.

For $35 you would just be in small claims. Where you represent yourself. And it costs nothing to defend yourself other than your time.

It would be incredibly bad luck to be falsely accused 6 times in a row. Something akin to being struck by lightning while being eaten by a shark.

What's the "statue of limitations" on the accusations? It is improbable but not impossible.

Considering the "penalty" the first 5 strikes is a letter and the penalty for the 6th strike is um NOTHING( maybe throttling ) I'm not seeing the point of all the hub bub.

It does not require anything to happen, but that doesn't mean that they can't elect to happen. But I agree with you. An ISP, for the most part, doesn't care what their users do as long as it doesn't end up cost them additional money. Unless there is criminal use of the account (phishing, scams, child porn, etc), as long as the customer pays they are going to stay a customer.

If you're accused of rape, sure there is a chance you are could be falsely accused. Happens all the time. However if you are accused 6 times in a row there is no way you are not guilty.

Remind me never to have you on my jury. Besides, if you're falsely accused, any subsequent time the jury would never hear about it.

funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to 88615298
said by 88615298:

The plan has seen fierce criticism from the EFF and some researchers because it assumes guilt before innocence and requires users pay a $35 fee just for the honor of defending themselves against accusations

If I get arrested for a crime, the cops think I did it( ie GUILTY of said crime ) before I've had a trial. Thus I have to pay to prove I am not guilty.

If I am sued in a civil case I have to pay to defend myself. The court doesn't investigate and decides I'm not guilty BEFORE a trial. That's the whole point of a trial.

ISPs have traditionally been legally terrified of this entire affair, refusing to talk in any detail about their piracy mitigation measures -- in part because they've falsely accused people in the past and are worried about legal liability for screwing up.

It would be incredibly bad luck to be falsely accused 6 times in a row. Something akin to being struck by lightning while being eaten by a shark.

Considering the "penalty" the first 5 strikes is a letter and the penalty for the 6th strike is um NOTHING( maybe throttling ) I'm not seeing the point of all the hub bub.

If you're accused of rape, sure there is a chance you are could be falsely accused. Happens all the time. However if you are accused 6 times in a row there is no way you are not guilty.

you were doing ok till hte cops part about you being guilty , no if that were the case you'd not get a trial of any kind or that right and go right to prison .....the cops THINK you did something wrong they arrest you and you goto court to determine guilt or innocence...


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
said by funny0:

you were doing ok till hte cops part about you being guilty , no if that were the case you'd not get a trial of any kind or that right and go right to prison .....the cops THINK you did something wrong they arrest you and you goto court to determine guilt or innocence...

and this is different how? People here want the courts to determine innocence BEFORE letters are sent.