dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
746
share rss forum feed


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast

1 recommendation

[Raiding] Tanking Damage Adjustment Hot Fixes

Click for full size
So, the Official forum posted this at 18:07 PDT, 10/2/2012. We were raiding from 1900 - 2030 PDT... I think they might have unduly shorted the Paladin Tanks.


Nick D
Premium
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA

Noooo my meterzzzz

Revenge spam in 5 mans was stupid.


clawfury

join:2012-02-14
Rochester, MI
reply to Immer

Yay, no changes to my DK. I like doing 125k damage on trash pulls :P



Feralmordius

join:2011-01-18
reply to Immer

Ok now what...

So was I just doing it wrong? I though we pallies were supposed to be running with Seal of Truth for single and Seal of Righteousness for AOE.

This should be interesting.
--
Tiermordius on Nathrezim Server (US)
Main Tank for Pride and Ego



Nick D
Premium
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA

Now you just use Insight for single target. Makes sense; it heals you.

Though ... correct me if I'm wrong, but Prot Pallies never have to trade HoPo mitigation for more damage right? I guess its a question of using WoG over SotR, but SotR is still a good thing to use for damage reduction purposes.

Do DKs have this trade off? Death Strike is both damage and mit right?

What about monks?

Bears and warriors get HStrike/Maul considerations. But HStrike hits so piddly, I'd rather just shield block and try and get enraged.

ALSO

Note that they changed Symbiosis for all tanks. No more new mini-CDs:

Protection warriors - Stampeding Shout
Blood death knights - Wild Mushroom: Plague
Protection paladins - Wrath
Brewmaster monks - Bear Hug

Some silly, situational stuff, so Symbi is back to "put it on shad's for tranq, or make it druid's choice".



Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
reply to Feralmordius

said by Feralmordius:

Ok now what...

So was I just doing it wrong? I though we pallies were supposed to be running with Seal of Truth for single and Seal of Righteousness for AOE.

This should be interesting.

Nuuuuuu mah damage, I was using the same combo, I run Seal of Insight on my holy spec, will give a try tonight on heroics to see if there is a change.
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.

wabisuke

join:2007-01-23
Philippines
reply to Nick D

said by Nick D:

Do DKs have this trade off? Death Strike is both damage and mit right?

Yup...damage, mit(improved through mastery), and heal


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5

Now with this change us Protection Paladin should look into this glyph?

Glyph of the Battle Healer

Using melee attacks while using Seal of Insight heals a nearby injured friendly target, excluding the Paladin, within 30 yards for 30% of damage dealt.

»www.wowhead.com/item=81956
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.



Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
reply to Nick D

said by Nick D:

I guess its a question of using WoG over SotR, but SotR is still a good thing to use for damage reduction purposes.

I always try to keep 2-3 holy power in store in case I am expecting a big hit for SotR, If I am receiving consistent damage while aoe tanking, I will use WoG on every 2 charges or even stacking to 5 to have a buffer to use twice. Since I will get two charges right away when I CS/HoR and Judge.
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.


Feralmordius

join:2011-01-18
reply to Immer

I try to wait till I have at least 3 stacks of Bastion of Glory before using WoG. It is usually worth waiting for stacks than spamming WoG.

The biggest issue comes in when it is not physical damage (which is most fights now). Does SotR still out perform WoG since it is not reducing your damage by 30%?

--
Tiermordius on Nathrezim Server (US)
Main Tank for Pride and Ego



Caelharrad

join:2012-04-13
Fenton, MO
reply to Nick D

said by Nick D:

Do DKs have this trade off? Death Strike is both damage and mit right?

Basically, yes. For a Blood DK, Death Strike (a) hits like a truck, (b) heals you for 20% of the damage you've received in the last 5 seconds, and (c) once mastery is activated, provides a damage absorption "shell" called Blood Shield. The part about (c) is that the size of the Blood Shield scales with mastery... so it can get pretty OP pretty quickly.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast

nick was asking about trade offs. I think in the area of tradeoffs, DKs just have to game their runes so that a DS is always available. Keeping diseases up and burning blood tap also compete for rune availability to some extent. That is as far as we can take the tradeoff discussion with respect to DKs. They simply don't have to sacrifice dps for survivability... This has been their design since at least 4.2 and it has been solid.

The other tanks are being show-horned into the DK model... and some stretching is still required.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Immergruen (resto/boomie) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Agrende (discipline/holy); Esclavizado (blood/unholy)

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.



Nick D
Premium
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA

Immer's got the right of it. I think its somewhat dumb that DKs get max damage and max mitigation from the same rotations/considerations, whereas warriors have to make a tradeoff: do I want take more damage, or do more damage?

To be fair, its not that bad for warriors (and I assume bears) because HStrike hits like a limp noodle, and Execute range isn't long enough to be a major consideration. Was just curious if other classes have that.

An analogy for DKs would be something like Icy Touch hitting harder than Death Strike (which I'm sure is not the case).

ADDENDUM: at the same time, I suspect that's the trade-off for having better passive mitigation. I can still block a significant part of the time if I don't use Shield Block. DKs will take more full face hits than I would if they used Hypothetically-more-damaging-than-Death-Strike Strike (for UF runes) instead of Death Strike.

I think that resolves my moral dilemma.



Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8

Runicstrike. It hits harder than death strike, I believe... but its just a filler strike. You can't spam it.


Threatco

join:2011-04-19
Moncton, NB

4 edits
reply to Immer

I would like to hear from some bears.

From my experience tanking 85 to 89 in leveling gear it has been a bit rough.

My damage is ok, but not nearly as high as I used to put out through out cata compared to similarily geared dps.

And I am getting hit like a truck. Active mitigation should be code for "click this as often as possible or die". My 60 rage ability gives me 45% dodge for 6 seconds. When incoming damage is high I can keep it up I guess about 66% of the time. That is HUGE. If I don't use it, I am taking about a lot more damage then I would otherwise take if I did not have it up.

All this adds up to I am not only using these abilities as much as possible just to keep my healers mana up, I have to revolve my whole rotation around generating rage (by attacking).

Mangle generates 5 Rage when used (or 7 if you have the talent Soul of the Forest). Mangle has a 6 second cooldown.

Auto-Attacks generate 6.2 Rage per attack that deals damage. Your base auto-attack speed is 2.5 seconds.

Enrage generates 20 Rage when used, and an additional 10 Rage over the next 10 seconds. Enrage has a 60 second cooldown.

Critical Strikes of either Mangle or Auto-Attack will generate 15 Rage.

Lacerate. Thrash, or FFF has a 25% chance to reset the cooldown on Mangle.



My tool-box abilities do not generate rage so they directly reduce my 40% dodge uptime. Stuns, charges, knockback, interupts, inervates, swipes, and more all don't give rage and so become very undesirable if a mangle is up, which it almost always is.

Anyways thats my QQ, maybe when I get more crit it will scale better but so far I dislike bear tanking in MoP a lot compared to Cata.

QQ wtb hybrid spec back!



JB
Stay Gold
Premium
join:2009-05-14
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

The idea is that they nerfed the shit out of your passive dodge and replaced it with the situational dodge/heal. I agree it is a lot of micromanaging but it will really separate excellent tanks from just mediocre tanks.(Or bads)

The changes you have mentioned is why bears need crit until we are crit capped. All of the math is done out there, but essentially we do not gem agilty anymore, it is stamina/dodge/crit for now.

Our cata damage was 'too high' (We scaled too good w/ agility) and the class was 'too easy' (supposedly) so all the whiney prot pallies got their wish.
--
Here's the final bullet,
to put our love to death.



drew
Automatic
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6

said by JB:

(We scaled too good w/ agility)

Superman does good. You do well.

Threatco

join:2011-04-19
Moncton, NB

2 edits
reply to Immer

I did a bit more reading and have tanked a bit at 440 ilvl in heroics since making my rant post and I feel a bit better now.

The incease in Ilvl surpassed the increase in difficulty from heroics. I now spend a lot of my time on trash mauling because my healers is staying over 90% mana and I can self heal.

Bosses are more reasonable, I am still focusing on dodge uptime but it is not as much of a panic. Unless I fail a mechanic badly it seems I am Mr Uber tank again. (I am sure that feeling will faid quickly in raid Saturday)

Anyways. I still disagree with the philosphy behind the changes. To me it seems like a DK thing not a Paladin thing.

People were all like "Our DK tank's are so pro look at them activly mitigate isin't that cool? Their skill really shows! All tanks should be like that, ya!" (I forget the exact GC quote but it was something like that)

My response is that Ferals had many ways to let their skill show all ready. I am on the side of the fence that different tanks should be good at different things. They don't all need the exact same tools.

I think Cata was a good place for tanks as far as parity. As long as you try to make all tanks the same, the ones who are slightly better numbers wise will be the default choice. When they are different you can take advantage of your tanks strength and small difference in raw numbers are more negligable.

DK Tanks had the best Total Damage Reduction over a fight.
and had active mitigation for small damage spike.

Paladin Tanks had the best Cool Downs for big damage spikes.

Warior Tanks had the best Mobility and over all tool box.

Druid Tanks had the best DPS and looked the coolest >8-)

That was fine with me. I may be wrong but it seems they want us all to have the same survival CDs, same active mitigation, same total damage reduction, the same DPS. Mobility? I assume it's still Warrior > Druid > Paladin = DK.

Just... QQ

----

I've been tanking a bit more now. At 455 ilvl. Starting to feel a bit better, my dps is coming up pretty steady in line with my stats. And gemming/enchanting some peices helped too.

I still am sore about having to choose between passive speed increase and bear charge, I need both.

I love my treants too much to give them up for Berserk's ugly step brother of a talent. I *DEMAND* they make trents help my rage somehow, or I AM GOING TO cancel my sub!!!! >:-(

Either their crits give me some rage, or it has a chance to reset my mangle or enrage cooldown. SOMETHING.

It's dumb for a talent to be useful damage reducer on trash, but be totaly useless except for piddling dps on a raid boss. And it's the coolest looking one!

QQ