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Kaltes
Premium
join:2002-12-04
Los Angeles, CA

Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

I think WvW is poorly designed. Some reasons:

1. It is the only endgame pvp for GW2. (sPVP is just terrible and pointless with no rewards at all worth mentioning) Contrast this with Guild Wars 1 or WoW which have meaningful arena combat and battlegrounds-type combat (plus GW1 had several other pvp types).

2. WvW encourages a massive zerg, not strategy with distinct, coordinated groups. If one side has multiple groups and the other has 1 massive zerg, the zerg will win. Keeps drop fast to zergs but not to smaller groups. Supply camps cant be taken by smaller groups while the boss has that immunity buff, but a zerg can hit him so hard it pierces the buff and kills him anyway. More numbers is the answer to pretty much everything.

3. Fortifications do not do enough to help defenders. I can do full damage to defenders on walls with my engineer and necromancer using AOE (grenades, marks). Elementalists and Rangers get even bigger AOE. The walls are simply not safe when there are a lot of people on the ground. You have to make a lot of siege for the walls, but even if you position arrow carts as far back on the walls as you can, they will still get hit by aoe and destroyed pretty quickly if youre up against a big zerg.

4. Being grossly outnumbered doesn't make you stronger, it just gives you a small boost to XP MF and Karma. Huh? Conversely, the winning team gets big stat boosts from Orbs, helping the dominant team dominate that much more. This is partially why:

5. Being on the losing team is not fun and there is no incentive to play on the weaker side, so people don't, which only ensures easier domination by the winners.

_______________________________________________________

I think there needs to me more, a LOT more, for individual players and small groups of 3-5 to do. As of now, there is almost nothing you can meaningfully do on your own. I would say Alterac Valley in WoW got it right in 2005 with basic things like collecting blood, wolf skins, and so on, to be able to spawn NPCs or upgrade your side's NPCs. In WvW, upgrades are purely bought with silver. There need to be collection events as well, and there need to be a lot of SMALL points of interest that can be taken with a strong solo player or a small group and have some meaningful impact on the map. The quaggan should be one of MANY events instead of being the only event.

Losing teams should get buffs. If outnumbered, significant buffs to stats in 5% increments equal to about 25% of the disparity, capped at 100%. At 50%, all the (non-wvw) mobs on the map become green to you, so you can't farm them with your super stats. Losing teams should also get more and better NPC guards. Orbs should only give a MF/gold/xp/karma bonus, NOT anything for your stats.

There should be a difficulty progression where the keep/fort/etc closest to the spawn should be very easy to defend, and only lost in the most extreme cases. Border keeps should NOT be the toughest (they are now), the stuff in the middle should be more offense oriented and the stuff closest to the spawns should be more defense oriented. Rewards for taking them should be proportional to the difficulty.

There should be a lot more NPCs. There should be NPCs having their own battles, and the ebb and flow of NPCs, like league of legends, should change based on player actions. Players should be able to do events solo or in small groups to increase the number and/or quality of the NPCs they spawn and send into battle. Players should be able to do things like rescue trapped squads from cocoons by killing a spider queen, and escort these troops to safety, which will in turn increase your number of NPCs sent out. If one side is busy buffing their number and quality of NPCs, they could fight their way to a gate and start to take it down (slowly).

There should also be fun tactical ways to disrupt supply. For example, you could collect meat, and then take the event reward bundle of stinking meat to certain locations, like a bridge, and use it to attract a boss monster. BRIDGE TROLL. Now the troll will kill the enemy supply by itself unless the supply is well guarded.

The point is, players should feel like the things they do are having some kind of effect on the game, even if it isn't a huge one.

Next up: punish the zerg. Basically what you need to do is scatter control points around and make holding all of these points important to taking the main objective. A zerg fails in a battleground like arathi basin in WoW because 1 big invincible mass of players can only hold 1 point out of 5. Well in WvW just make it important that, in order to be able to take down a siege target, you hold these various control points. Supply camps serve this function but there are too few of them and theyre too big. There need to be more, smaller points to allow for some quality small-group combat. Add in troop camps which can spawn defenders if it is repaired, but which don't do anything for the attackers if its busted up. Put in field hospitals where defenders who control them get significantly faster respawn and healing rates. There are a lot of options, with the point being that there need to be a lot more to fight over beyond just a gate, so the game becomes more about coordination, strategy, and skill instead of purely a matter of which side has the bigger zerg.


TheThing

join:2012-08-10
kudos:1
the zerg is punished

if you see a zerg, then something else of the enemy team is not defended enough, and you can usually take it with low numbers if you have the proper siege

you can defend against the zerg with proper siege equipment as well

but getting the whole team to cooperate is the hard part

because it becomes zerg vs. zerg, zerg attacks, gets wiped, they counter zerg and then wipe


Kaltes
Premium
join:2002-12-04
Los Angeles, CA
if my zerg is significantly bigger than your zerg, my zerg will win every time. at most, my zerg only has to build its own siege to kill yours with and you cant sally to kill my siege since your team would just die.

my zerg cares not for holding points, only taking them. you can have them back after my team takes them if you like, because we will just come right back and take it right back, for yet another nice reward. eventually, after you see that my bigger zerg will always take points much faster than your smaller one, and so will therefore control more of the map, and if our zergs fight mine will always win... eventually your players will lose morale and leave, making my zerg's domination complete.

and that is pretty much how wvw goes.


Jaided

join:2009-11-13
Mount Laurel, NJ
reply to Kaltes
You make some decent points. I hope you've posted this in the GW2 forums for the developers to get your feedback.


footballdude
Premium
join:2002-08-13
Imperial, MO
reply to Kaltes
said by Kaltes:

meaningful arena combat

Makes me cringe. Arena was a really bad idea that led to a number of other bad ideas in WoW. Please keep it out of GW2.
--
Concentrated power has always been the enemy of liberty - Ronald Reagan


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
Time to wildly imbalance one aspect of the game in an attempt to counter the latest OP FOTM!


TheThing

join:2012-08-10
kudos:1
reply to Kaltes
some of these comments smell of Wintergrasp in WoW... giving bonuses to one side for certain aspects

here's a hint... wintergrasp was TERRIBLE


pr1mo
Premium
join:2003-11-12
Harwood Heights, IL
kudos:2
reply to Kaltes
sounds like you don't like gw2


Kaltes
Premium
join:2002-12-04
Los Angeles, CA
reply to footballdude
said by footballdude:

said by Kaltes:

meaningful arena combat

Makes me cringe. Arena was a really bad idea that led to a number of other bad ideas in WoW. Please keep it out of GW2.

I didnt like arenas in WoW because it was so elitist and was set up so that high ranked players got better gear so they could easily dominate new players. Arenas worked great for a small hard core subset of players and was terrible for everyone else, including me.

In GW1, arenas were great. There was a level playing field and it came down to skill.


TheThing

join:2012-08-10
kudos:1
reply to Kaltes
Arenas in WoW are mainly flawed because in WoW:

1v1 not balanced
2v2 not balanced
3v3 only balanced for very SPECIFIC comps... if at all
5v5 getting close to being balanced

arena in WoW was a bad idea, always was... why put micro PvP into a massive MMO?

that's why WvW in GW2 is so excellent, its truly massive PvP, the way its meant to be, and best way to balance around


facepalm

join:2012-08-20
Lumberton, TX
reply to Kaltes
When Blizzard started fucking around trying to balance toons to please the (mainly) pvp whiners it ultimately drove pve people away. I was one that left because of it. I'd level a toon, start raiding, having fun, and then come patch time, BLAM. Relearn and/or reroll. I got sick of that shit after the 4th toon class got hammered by Blizz and gave up WoW. I had thousands and thousands of hours in the game and never went back. I've been looking for something to fill the void since then. I truly hope the GW2 devs are wiser than that.
--
Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not. ~ Thomas Jefferson


Goggalor
Psychonaut
Premium
join:2009-06-09
Your Mind!
kudos:2
WoW's devs never did the simplest, yet most elegant fix: have PvP and PvE versions of the spells/abilities. Spell/Ability A does this much damage and/or crowd control against a PvP target, but does this much damage and/or crowd control against everything else. I mean, look at Polymorph; it already has two durations: one for PvP, one for PvE...


Kaltes
Premium
join:2002-12-04
Los Angeles, CA
said by Goggalor:

WoW's devs never did the simplest, yet most elegant fix: have PvP and PvE versions of the spells/abilities.

That is not just the simplest fix, it is mandatory. Guild Wars 1 had to do things that way. PvP and Pve are simply different games from a balance perspective. PvP must be finely tuned and nerf-heavy to whack-a-mole down an OP build that is ruining balance for everyone, but OP in pvp might be just fine in pve.

GW1 did it right. They allowed different versions of spells, sometimes changing the strength for pvp (always weaker), and sometimes changing the functionality entirely. Guild wars had to balance hundreds of skills and spells with near-infinite combinations, and yet it did a very good job. WoW had a much, much easier job and yet Blizzard did a pretty terrible job with balance.

Blizzard saying the game isn't balanced around 1v1s is just an excuse.

I played a BM Hunter originally. I eventually abandoned my hunter because hunter was not viable at all in certain matchups. Hunters were good at burning down squishies, but were terrible against heavy armor and medium armor +self-healing. I had a hybrid shaman heal through my burst and kill me purely with shocks (since I had no heals) even though I successfully kited him. I had a paladin fight last over 5 minutes where I couldnt possibly kill him because my damage could never outpace his (non-primary) heals and mana regen.

So I bit the bullet and roll warlock. Affliction. I owned for years. I got to keep a pet. I got to keep my primary playstyle of kiting. My damage was far higher and far more consistent. I could tank enemy casters and kite enemy melee. There was no matchup I couldn't win as long as I outplayed the other guy. I was happy with things until the talent trees got changed and aff locks got nerfed HARD to the point where shadow priests were basically changed to be a better dot class than we were. I stubborn refused to reroll and died a lot as I suddenly went from being somewhat tanky to being super squishy and losing most of my escapes, which I badly needed to kite with. Later on I bit the bullet and respeced to demonology because I could tolerate it, and it was pretty decent. I hated destro locks and refused to ever play as one no matter how much everyone ptried to force me to be one. I think I had guilds pretty much tell me to roll destro or I wouldnt be allowed on raids. too bad I couldn't care less about pve and never went on 1 raid after molten core in vanilla.

So since I had to play with my friends and I was hating being a lock, I rolled the 1 class I hated the most and KNEW that Blizzard would never nerf: paladin.

I owned everyone in the face. As a paladin, I would sometimes even go 3, 4, or 5 vs 1 and WIN. It was just stupid. I was prot spec. I would throw my shield and hit 3 targets for big damage and a snare. I would aoe on my normal attacks. I would self-heal CONSTANTLY for huge amounts thanks to a completely OP trait.

But then the pre-cata patch came out and radically changed balance, so I quit and never returned. Most everyone else I know who was into WoW quit after Cata came out.

cymraeg
Thread Killer
Premium
join:2011-06-07
Dodge, NE
so they balanced your pally, because you were op, and quit cause you werent owning ppl, sounds like huge qqing to me, wahhh wahhh im not the best anymore wah
--
Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau!
"What happened in here?" " Seems to have been a bit of a squabble." "They're all dead!" " More of a tif then."


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to Kaltes
That really does sound like you moving to each FOTM and then quitting when your character who could 1v5 was nerfed.

Pick the class you love and just play it. Stop going for the FOTM.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


I AM
Premium
join:2010-04-11
Ephrata, PA
kudos:4
reply to cymraeg
said by cymraeg:

so they balanced your pally, because you were op, and quit cause you werent owning ppl, sounds like huge qqing to me, wahhh wahhh im not the best anymore wah

HEHE.

Josof

join:2010-10-23
Virginia Beach, VA
reply to Goggalor
said by Goggalor:

WoW's devs never did the simplest, yet most elegant fix: have PvP and PvE versions of the spells/abilities. Spell/Ability A does this much damage and/or crowd control against a PvP target, but does this much damage and/or crowd control against everything else. I mean, look at Polymorph; it already has two durations: one for PvP, one for PvE...

^this. most of my time in wow is spent pvp'ing and i never understood why the devs couldnt just come up with something similar to Goggalors fix.
--
"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat." - Sun Tzu


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
Or even simpler. Does X damage to NPCs, does X^Y to players and/or player pets.

ohh

join:2011-07-16
San Jose, CA
reply to Kaltes
Well, like man. That is just your opinion or whatever. Gosh.


TheThing

join:2012-08-10
kudos:1
Sometimes theres a man... We're talking about the dude here... and what is a hero anyways... but sometimes theres a man... and sometimes...

well darn... just lost my train of thought


Goggalor
Psychonaut
Premium
join:2009-06-09
Your Mind!
kudos:2
reply to ohh
said by ohh:

Well, like man. That is just your opinion or whatever. Gosh.




TheThing

join:2012-08-10
kudos:1
reply to Kaltes
Don't F with Jesus


Goggalor
Psychonaut
Premium
join:2009-06-09
Your Mind!
kudos:2
reply to cymraeg
said by cymraeg:

so they balanced your pally, because you were op, and quit cause you werent owning ppl, sounds like huge qqing to me, wahhh wahhh im not the best anymore wah

I quit WoW because the devs changed my pally, as well, though, I played as Ret. And, no, it was not that I could not kill people anymore, but because holy power is a piece of shit mechanic that was forced on to a class that had been around since launch.
--
From Psychonauts -
Lungfish Civilian: (describing Goggalor) He's impervious to bullets! ... and love!
--


TheThing

join:2012-08-10
kudos:1
all they needed to do was nerf RET, not add holy power

holy power was a disgusting mechanic

I quit because every class I liked to play, they changed the play style, and then the classes I loved weren't fun anymore

So some dweeb who only raided didn't like a classes mechanics, so they changed it, which then ruined the class for PvP


JB
Stay Gold
Premium
join:2009-05-14
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to cymraeg
said by cymraeg:

so they balanced your pally, because you were op, and quit cause you werent owning ppl, sounds like huge qqing to me, wahhh wahhh im not the best anymore wah



Gundy
Premium
join:2002-10-29
reply to Kaltes
I wish guild wars had a smaller type of 'arena' style combat. The zergfest REALLY gets old after awhile. Especially on dominating popular servers.

sPvp is fun, but thats it - no reward factor at all. WvW is alright for about 15 minutes then becomes who has the most rangers/elementalists for massive AoE.

Sorta down about this game, expected a lot more.
--
| Im not really a ego maniac im just really good at what I do... |


TheThing

join:2012-08-10
kudos:1
to be successful in WvW I think you would really need to approach it like a large raid in WoW

get about 20 people on vent, and really take is seriously

otherwise the mob sticks together like a school of fish... because when you leave the school, you get destroyed

ohh

join:2011-07-16
San Jose, CA
reply to Kaltes
TheThing and Goggalor, very nice. LOL! Great movie and great way to derail a rant thread.


facepalm

join:2012-08-20
Lumberton, TX
lol. This thread is bringing back some memories.


Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
reply to Kaltes
I don't get all the hatred towards WvW having zergs.

Almost any PVP in any game will always have some type of zerg happening. It's just the way it is. Especially when there's a massive amount of players participating.

Look at all the battle grounds in WoW. Even arenas. There's always some type of zerg happening.