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DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to JohnInSJ

Re: [WIN7] Recommended SSD System Tweaks?

said by JohnInSJ:

Is it just me or did Fred test the wrong thing.

If not aligned, WRITEs are a problem
- a write can cause two SSD blocks to need to be updated, which is an unnecessary update to a flash memory block. Life-1 for no reason
- a write update to two blocks is going to take more time than a write to one block

So, testing read speeds is going to show either of these things how, exactly?

You might find this thread helpful in response to Fred's comments:

»windowssecrets.com/forums/showth···e-drives

Frankly, it seems to be, for most people, searching after the Holy Grail. And except for the very technical or extremely anal, not to amount to a hill of beans.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA

The linked comments say exactly what I said, with more words

Write is the issue, not read. Slight but possibly insignificant in modern SSD increase in wear. Two read/writes vs 1... two REALLY FAST R/Ws, but still, double the time. For Writes. Sometimes. So Fred tested the wrong thing (read speed)
--
My place : »www.schettino.us



Vchat20
Landing is the REAL challenge
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Columbus, OH

1 recommendation

reply to trparky

said by trparky:

So do I even need a page file for a system that has 8 or 12 GBs of RAM?

7 will pretty much handle this stuff automatically such as disabling automatic defrag on the disk, disabling superfetch, and other system services unnecessary on an ssd.

Just do a fresh install on the drive without going outside of 7's guided install process and do the prior mentioned pagefile and hibernation tweaks and you'll be fine. No need to overthink it.
--
I swear, some people should have pace-makers installed to free up the resources. Breathing and heart beat taxes their whole system, all of their brain cells wasted on life support.-two bit brains, and the second bit is wasted on parity! ~head_spaz

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 edit
reply to DKS

It so happens that I often chat to a senior guy where I work whose job in part involves figuring out the impact of various disk technologies on our product line. And he tells me it does make a difference. Unfortunately his reports aren't public.

Misalignment is mostly a write problem, and more so on a not-new drive. (You can't overwrite an SSD block; the controller needs to allocate an erased block, and schedule the old one for erasure.)

FWIW, not all SSDs are equal. Different controllers choose to optimize for (note rare example of correct usage of the word) different scenarios.



DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to Vchat20

said by Vchat20:

said by trparky:

So do I even need a page file for a system that has 8 or 12 GBs of RAM?

7 will pretty much handle this stuff automatically such as disabling automatic defrag on the disk, disabling superfetch, and other system services unnecessary on an ssd.

Just do a fresh install on the drive without going outside of 7's guided install process and do the prior mentioned pagefile and hibernation tweaks and you'll be fine. No need to overthink it.

+1
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to dave

said by dave:

It so happens that I often chat to a senior guy where I work whose job in part involves figuring out the impact of various disk technologies on our product line. And he tells me it does make a difference. Unfortunately his reports aren't public.

Misalignment is mostly a write problem, and more so on a not-new drive. (You can't overwrite an SSD block; the controller needs to allocate an erased block, and schedule the old one for erasure.)

FWIW, not all SSDs are equal. Different controllers choose to optimize for (note rare example of correct usage of the word) different scenarios.

In that situation, I can understand the requirement. But for the 99% of consumers, not so much. Let Windows 7 do its thing and the rest of us should be fine. After several drive failures (OCZ) I have been using Intel SSDs with no problems.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


shearer
Northern Lights
Premium
join:2002-06-18
Asia
reply to Vchat20

said by Vchat20:

7 will pretty much handle this stuff automatically such as disabling automatic defrag on the disk, disabling superfetch, and other system services unnecessary on an ssd.

OK, but what if I'm restoring an image of Win7 (originating from mechanical HDD) to SSD? What other tweaks I need to make beside the following:

- drive alignment (if I want that extra non-perceptible boost in performance)
- disable superfetch, defrag, indexing
- move page file away
- TRIM (does win7 automatically enable it if it detects itself sitting on a SSD?)


BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to trparky

said by trparky:

So do I even need a page file for a system that has 8 or 12 GBs of RAM?

Depends what you're doing with it. I run 16GB with no pagefile, but I'm gonna have to turn that puppy back on when I start running my VMs again. If you're just surfing the web and checking your email, you're probably good without a pagefile even at 4GB.

Turn off hibernation, set the pagefile initial size to 0, max size to whatever (usually equal to the amount of RAM you have is a good policy, double your RAM if you have 4GB or less) and Windows won't page out unless it absolutely needs to. Disabling the pagefile altogether means a crash if you fill your RAM, setting it to a 0 initial size means it won't be used unless your RAM is literally full; giving it a nonzero initial size means Windows will page out enough data to fill that initial size as soon as there's enough disk idle time for it to do so without impacting performance. It does this and marks the paged out portion of RAM as disposable, so it knows it can just free that RAM without having to page it our first (since it's already written to disk), but if you never actually fill your RAM, you're using erase-write cycles on your SSD needlessly.

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to DKS

said by DKS:

Let Windows 7 do its thing and the rest of us should be fine.

There's no alignment issue with Windows 7 - it knows how to do the alignment.

Previous versions of Windows did not; so those are the systems on which you need to fix the alignment (if you care). That includes the update from not-Win7 to Win7 case, of course.


trparky
Apple... YUM
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:2
reply to trparky

Why I ask all of these questions is because my system is acting really weird as of late.

As you might know, a system with an SSD should simply fly. Right? Click on an icon to launch a program and it should have it loaded... like yesterday. But I'm seeing some huge issues with my system here.

When I boot my system it's fast. Everything seems fast. Use the computer for some time, say like for six hours, and you can see the system gradually get slower. Programs take longer to launch, right-click gets slower, etc. Hell, even the mouse starts to seem like it's asleep at the wheel in the sense that if you move the mouse the cursor doesn't always respond.

I have no idea why this is so. I can't pinpoint where the problem is. I've been doing troubleshooting for almost two weeks now and have come up completely empty-handed.

A system with a Core i7, 12 GBs of RAM, and an Intel 520 Series 240 GB SSD should not be having these issues.
--
Tom
Boycott AT&T uVerse! | Tom's Android Blog | AOKP (The Android Open Kang Project)


dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by trparky:

Hell, even the mouse starts to seem like it's asleep at the wheel in the sense that if you move the mouse the cursor doesn't always respond.

Doesn't sound like any sort of a disk issue.

I'd look at CPU load, particularly for interrupt and DPCs (use Performance Monitor.


trparky
Apple... YUM
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:2

Yeah, I've looked at that too. Very low CPU usage, most of the time it's less than 25% usage across all eight "CPUs".

I know that this machine has DPC Latency issues and I have another thread open in this same forums regarding the issue.

»[WIN7] High DPC Latency with High Network Traffic

But now it seems like it doesn't even need network traffic to have DPC Latency shoot through the roof. NDIS, TCP/IP, and some driver for the nVidia video card seems to be the biggest culprits according to LatencyMon. But, after looking at the other machines in my house with LatencyMon they too have the same latency spikes but they don't seem to be having the same issues that this desktop has.

I'm at a complete loss as to what could be causing these issues. Like I said, I've been troubleshooting this issue for almost two weeks now and I'm no closer to a solution or a reason why this is happening than I was when I started investigating this mess.

Could I be looking at potential hardware failure here? Motherboard? CPU?
--
Tom
Boycott AT&T uVerse! | Tom's Android Blog | AOKP (The Android Open Kang Project)



trparky
Apple... YUM
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join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:2

I'm looking at the Performance Monitor and Interrupts per Second are damn near at the top of the graph in Performance Monitor.



trparky
Apple... YUM
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:2

It seems that Flash may be connected to the high DPCs and Interrupt Requests per second. That and a dirty video card.



digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2
reply to DKS

Agreed. Even defragging sata drives is required only rarely (once or twice every 6 months).

Super fast CPUs and HDDs render the performance penalty of fragmentation as close to 0 as a mechanical device can be.

Sometimes ya just gotta let go...
--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.



DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to trparky

said by trparky:

That and a dirty video card.

There are a whole bunch of straight lines that leads to...
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


trparky
Apple... YUM
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:2

I really need to clean the machine out, dust everywhere. I did clean the video card out and with the first pull of the trigger on the can of compressed air and large cloud of dust came out. I need to do the same to the CPU as well since I can see a layer of dust on one of the heat fin assemblies.

I still say that Flash is awful pig that needs to be put down.
--
Tom
Boycott AT&T uVerse! | Tom's Android Blog | AOKP (The Android Open Kang Project)



trparky
Apple... YUM
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:2

The processing latency issue comes and goes. I can't seem to find a connection between the issues.

As of right now, Interrupts per Second according to Performance Monitor is nearly 10 Million but it's not effecting the performance of the machine. It's as fast as it should be.

It could be fine for several hours and then suddenly start running horribly. I can't seem to find a reason for the issues that I'm having.
--
Tom
Boycott AT&T uVerse! | Tom's Android Blog | AOKP (The Android Open Kang Project)


dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

10 million interrupts per second seems like a hell of a lot. If it takes of the order of a few hundred instructions to service an interrupt, that's more than one CPU core's worth.

Are you sure you read that right?

My admittedly fairly idle system is taking around 6 or 7 hundred interrupts/sec.



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to trparky

I have a number of different SSD models of different capacities. A number of them are of OCZ make. One of my oldest SSD models is an OCZ Agility 60GB (v1). The system it was installed in recently started to freeze randomly. I've never had a problem with any SSD but I figured my number was up so I replaced it with a standard 500GB HDD and restored a backup from my Server. A quick and easy solution I thought.

Long story short,....

It still freezes without the SSD and I no longer suspect the SSD is defective. So I'll try a fresh install to see if I can nail down this problem.



trparky
Apple... YUM
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:2
reply to dave

said by dave:

10 million interrupts per second seems like a hell of a lot. If it takes of the order of a few hundred instructions to service an interrupt, that's more than one CPU core's worth.

Yes, that's across all eight "cores" of the Core i7 CPU.
--
Tom
Boycott AT&T uVerse! | Tom's Android Blog | AOKP (The Android Open Kang Project)

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8

But my point is that consuming one whole core just for interrupt handling is not normal.

Unless you're servicing a lot of non-DMA devices. (Are USB devices DMA? Dunno)



trparky
Apple... YUM
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:2

I only have a Logitech Keyboard & Mouse receiver (one USB device services them both) and a Logitech web cam. Only two USB devices are plugged into the machine at any one time. It's rare, but sometimes I connect my Android phone to the computer but usually only for short periods of time and I disconnect it when I'm finished.

LatencyMon says that some nVidia driver along with the NDIS, TCP/IP, and USBPORT driver are also part of the problem but it changes depending upon the state of the machine. As you can guess, tracking down which driver is causing this issue has been rather difficult.
--
Tom
Boycott AT&T uVerse! | Tom's Android Blog | AOKP (The Android Open Kang Project)



trparky
Apple... YUM
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:2

I can't help but to think that somewhere in this system of mine, hardware is failing and that this is a sign of the beginning of the end for it.



trparky
Apple... YUM
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:2

Damn it, I solved the problem. Too bad I had to use the "sledge hammer" method to do so. I reformatted my machine and reinstalled from scratch. Guess what? No issues. No DPC Latency spikes according to DPC Latency Checker v1.3.
--
Tom
Boycott AT&T uVerse! | Tom's Android Blog | AOKP (The Android Open Kang Project)


dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8

Just for comparison, what's the interrupt rate now?



trparky
Apple... YUM
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:2

Click for full size
Interrupts
Screenshot.


MrWhsprs
Premium
join:2000-04-22
Round Lake, IL
Reviews:
·RCN CABLE
reply to Vchat20

said by Vchat20:

-IF- you use hibernate, move it.

Just a quick note that the hibernate file can't be moved. It's my understanding that the hibernate file will always be (and can only be) in the root of the system partition, where ntldr is located.
--
Mike


trparky
Apple... YUM
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:2

Click for full size
High Interrupts
And the damn monster is back. ARG!!!!


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to BronsCon

said by BronsCon:

said by trparky:

So do I even need a page file for a system that has 8 or 12 GBs of RAM?

Depends what you're doing with it. I run 16GB with no pagefile, but I'm gonna have to turn that puppy back on when I start running my VMs again. If you're just surfing the web and checking your email, you're probably good without a pagefile even at 4GB.

Turn off hibernation, set the pagefile initial size to 0, max size to whatever (usually equal to the amount of RAM you have is a good policy, double your RAM if you have 4GB or less) and Windows won't page out unless it absolutely needs to. Disabling the pagefile altogether means a crash if you fill your RAM, setting it to a 0 initial size means it won't be used unless your RAM is literally full; giving it a nonzero initial size means Windows will page out enough data to fill that initial size as soon as there's enough disk idle time for it to do so without impacting performance. It does this and marks the paged out portion of RAM as disposable, so it knows it can just free that RAM without having to page it our first (since it's already written to disk), but if you never actually fill your RAM, you're using erase-write cycles on your SSD needlessly.

Actually ideal for the pagefile is set min and max to the same size so it doesn't re-size it