| reply to Mike
Re: [rant] Dont they get it - its not just the hardware said by Mike:You have to give MS some credit, they're slowly getting better.
Yes, the cure for cancer rate is improving a bit each year too and it is a good analogy to the claim MS is slowly getting better. MS being on par with Apple will occur likely about the same time a total cure for cancer will be found.
In the meantime poor cancer sufferers will continue their brave painful battle as will MS users.
Go the DSLR Security Forum. Its name is in a way sort of a joke. They could change the name to MS problems and not have to change many posts. The number or percentage of OS X security posts that comprise the very heavily posted and used forum? |
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 MikePremium,Mod
join:2000-09-17
Pittsburgh, PA
kudos:1 | I'm well aware at how shitty windows is. |
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 JohnInSJPremium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA
 ·PHONE POWER
 ·Comcast
| reply to scross
said by scross:The day that Microsoft releases an OS that doesn't NEED a constant stream of zero-day patches and such, for example, then maybe we can START to talk. Until then, no!
Well, by that definition, we can start to talk. Constant stream zero-day patches? Nope. Same stream as all other OSes, yep.
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My place : »www.schettino.us |
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scross
join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN | said by JohnInSJ:Well, by that definition, we can start to talk. Constant stream zero-day patches? Nope. Same stream as all other OSes, yep.
Well, having worked with quite a few operating systems in my time (I've been in the IT business for over 30 years now), Windows is the only one so far that NEEDS a constant stream (monthly, biweekly, out-of-band, or whatever) of zero-day exploit and similar patches. Other operating systems might have produced a steady stream of bug fixes, enhancements, feature-adds, and so on, that's true, but you might generally only get around to installing those quarterly or even annually or maybe whenever you had a specific need. And very (VERY) few of these were anything like urgent security-related patches, simply because these systems generally didn't ship from the factory in piss-poor condition, and had fundamentally good security built-in from the ground up.
If you have never worked with an OS of such high quality, then I feel sorry for you - I really do! |
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scross
join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN | reply to Thaler
said by Thaler:So, since no software manufacturer could produce an OS to run on 90% of computers without zero-day patches...you'll never begin talking? I don't get it.
You don't "get" it, do you?
First off, your statement about 90% of computers isn't true. Windows may run on 90% of "PCs" today (down from close to 100% at one time, I might add), but PCs are all a variation on a theme of one specific computer platform - created by IBM in the 1980s and most recently driven by Microsoft reference designs starting in the late 1990s. The fact that so many people these days automatically equate "computer" with "PC" is just sad, because at any given moment you are literally surrounded by computers of various types, relatively few of which are PCs. The typical modern automobile, for example, is supposed to have up to 11 computers in it, none of which (thank God) usually run Windows or anything else from Microsoft! |
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JohnInSJPremium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA Reviews:
·PHONE POWER
·Comcast
| reply to dellsweig
said by scross:said by JohnInSJ:Well, by that definition, we can start to talk. Constant stream zero-day patches? Nope. Same stream as all other OSes, yep.
Well, having worked with quite a few operating systems in my time (I've been in the IT business for over 30 years now), Windows is the only one so far that NEEDS a constant stream (monthly, biweekly, out-of-band, or whatever) of zero-day exploit and similar patches. Sigh... the old "having worked in IT for 30 years" story. Hey, me too. On OSes from Unix (you know, the real live Unix) to CP/M-80, and just about everything in-between. I have a masters degree in computer science, too. Do I get a cookie?
If you insist on holding to this bogus line of reasoning, then indeed I leave you in the capable hands of Apple. Enjoy.
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My place : »www.schettino.us |
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scross
join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN | reply to Thaler
said by Thaler:Microsoft's Windows persistent desktop/laptop presence hasn't really changed much over the last few years. I don't know where you're getting this read of a mass exodus of users from the Windows camp, but actual numbers seem to really disagree with this statement.
I'm not talking as much about a mass exodus as I am about a change of platform. |
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scross
join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN | reply to JohnInSJ
said by JohnInSJ:Sigh... the old "having worked in IT for 30 years" story. Hey, me too. On OSes from Unix (you know, the real live Unix) to CP/M-80, and just about everything in-between. I have a masters degree in computer science, too. Do I get a cookie?
If you insist on holding to this bogus line of reasoning, then indeed I leave you in the capable hands of Apple. Enjoy.
I'm sure you have! But not only have I worked with everything from CP/M and DOS to several versions of "real live Unix", but I've also worked with platforms that blew Unix and Windows out of the water, and that were "beyond the state of the art" when they first came out ages ago - and still are in many respects. It's unfortunate that you have never had that privilege yourself.
And I never said I was going to Apple, now did I? I said that others in my family had or at least wanted to, and that I was even considering it myself, but it probably wouldn't be my first choice. Not because it's not a good choice, but because I don't necessarily want to get pigeon-holed into a single platform, like the general PC world has been. |
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 GooberPremium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5 | I think IT has passed you by. Your words indicate that you're too old to understand what is going on and why. |
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| said by Goober:I think IT has passed you by. Your words indicate that you're too old to understand what is going on and why.
Your response is rude, obnoxious, and an unprovoked personal insult or attack on a fellow member. It has no basis in reality.
All though I may not agree with all of the points scross makes or have his level of technical expertise, education, and skill I don't have to in order to reach the conclusion that he is polite, responsive and posts on topic and in good-faith.
You on the other hand "talk," write and reason as a stereotypical abrasive attorney. |
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JohnInSJPremium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA Reviews:
·PHONE POWER
·Comcast
| reply to scross
said by scross:I'm sure you have! But not only have I worked with everything from CP/M and DOS to several versions of "real live Unix", but I've also worked with platforms that blew Unix and Windows out of the water, and that were "beyond the state of the art" when they first came out ages ago - and still are in many respects. It's unfortunate that you have never had that privilege yourself.
Please name one of these platforms.
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My place : »www.schettino.us |
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 ThalerPremium
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA
kudos:3 | Etch A Sketch. |
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 skeechanAi OtsukaholicPremium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2 | reply to JohnInSJ
OS-9 for the 6809 Still around after 30+ years. /thread  |
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scross
join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN | reply to JohnInSJ
said by JohnInSJ:Please name one of these platforms.
The IBM midrange and mainframe platforms are still around and still going strong, in spite of what Microsoft might have you believe; I have a long history with what used to be called the iSeries myself, and it is probably the finest platform that I have ever worked on and will ever work on, despite it being a bit long-in-the-tooth now, at least according to some people. Their AIX platforms are still around, too, although they have consolidated a lot of this stuff on POWER hardware these days, so sometimes it's hard to tell what's what. Before I worked on AIX I worked with AT&T's UNIX System V, running on their 3B2 platform at the time, but that's been ages ago now. Somewhere around here I still have a book with a bootleg copy of the early UNIX source code in it, and I have a former colleague who used to work at Bell Labs itself, for the guys who invented the C language.
DEC is still around in some fashion, too, although I don't know what name it goes under now. There's a lot of supercomputer stuff out there that used to run under Unix but now runs under Linux, although the trend these days is to gang a bunch of high-end graphics cards together and call that a supercomputer, probably running Linux.
At any given moment you are literally surrounded with embedded computer hardware that you may not even realize exists. My MIL has an early HDTV that runs Linux. My newer HDTVs probably do, too, but I've never looked into it. I know my set-top boxes run WinCE, which no doubt explains some of their flakiness, but I expect that I would find my routers run Linux if I dug into it; I know some of my now retired ones did, plus I had a high-end one at one time which ran Cisco's IOS. Most of the rest of the embedded stuff runs some appropriate embedded OS, none of which is related to Windows. Heck, even the Z80 platform, which dates back to the 1970s, is still around and still going strong in the embedded world.
PC-centric people generally don't have a clue about any of this stuff, so it's always amusing to try to discuss it with them. Their world seems to begin and end with whatever Microsoft tells them, and I always find it hard to hold my tongue when they start going on about how great Microsoft is and how ubiquitous it is. |
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ThalerPremium
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA
kudos:3 | Alright...and so, how many of these embedded computer systems have to worry about an ever-changing internet presence threatening to compromise their security? Even if my in-dash car GPS had an exploit...how exactly would it ever get exploited?
Long story short, these systems could very well have similar security loopholes as Windows (or Mac, Linux, iOS, Android, pick your internet-connected flavor) but no accessible means for an attacker to even attempt to compromise them. |
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| reply to Count Zero
said by Count Zero:It's all preference. I find every version of android to be buggy and to feel as if it were a poorly done rip of of iOS. Its customizability is nice but if all the software is glitchy what is the point.
I'm sorry but until you have used 4.1.1 on a Galaxy Nexus phone you have ZERO room to talk. That OS is probably one of the best overall at this point in the mobile workspace. The improvements Google have added and the new functionality destroy iOS in all aspects. iOS has become boring and stale and outdated, just like RIM ran into with their OS on their Blackberry's.
I test, use, and manage phones in a large corporate environment daily, I use all types of android and Apple devices non stop so I consider myself to be always on the ball when it comes to what is going on the mobile side and pure Nexus devices running 4.1.1 right now are amazing weapons to use. Windows Mobile is also doing some really interesting things as well but pure Android 4.1.1 has a brillant notification system, its quick and smooth.
I have used the 5 since it came out to see if I could get interested in iOS again and so far I'm bored again. It's not inspiring like it once was, it's not growing or maturing, it's just sitting and aging. Apple needs to step it up and make iOS 7 a complete redesign. |
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scross
join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN | reply to Thaler
I never claimed that embedded systems were particularly secure (not to the level of the other systems that I mentioned, anyway), I was only pointing out that they are numerous and ubiquitous - and in some ways, at least, still superior to Windows (in the way they manage resources, for example, which may be very limited) even if they are of an ancient pedigree. But to answer your question, many of these embedded systems are now connecting to the internet, too, and many are now leveraging wireless communications, both of which open them up to modes of attack that they didn't have to concern themselves with before. So they've had to go back and wrap themselves in layers of security which they haven't had before, but which many other computer systems have had from day one.
You might find this interesting reading, for example: »Dude Your Car is PWND ! |
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GooberPremium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5 Reviews:
 ·Dish Network
1 edit | reply to Insight
said by Insight:said by Goober:I think IT has passed you by. Your words indicate that you're too old to understand what is going on and why.
Your response is rude, obnoxious, and an unprovoked personal insult or attack on a fellow member. It has no basis in reality. All though I may not agree with all of the points scross makes or have his level of technical expertise, education, and skill I don't have to in order to reach the conclusion that he is polite, responsive and posts on topic and in good-faith. You on the other hand "talk," write and reason as a stereotypical abrasive attorney. What? The old semi-joke is that a parent needs to ask their kid for answers if a computer question comes up. At some point the younger and next generation (especially in fast moving technology) know more than the older generation. Especially if the older generation has constantly been training to keep up with technology.
Actually, I think your response is rude and obnoxious. I have over 30 years of experience with computers and got me EE back in '87, so I know exactly what I'm talking about when I say that times may have passed him by. It happens all the time.
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"That wasn’t a debate so much as Mitt Romney just took Obama for a cross country drive strapped to the roof of his car." - Mark Hemingway, The Weekly Standard. |
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GooberPremium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5 Reviews:
·Dish Network
| reply to Thaler
said by Thaler:Alright...and so, how many of these embedded computer systems have to worry about an ever-changing internet presence threatening to compromise their security? Even if my in-dash car GPS had an exploit...how exactly would it ever get exploited?
Long story short, these systems could very well have similar security loopholes as Windows (or Mac, Linux, iOS, Android, pick your internet-connected flavor) but no accessible means for an attacker to even attempt to compromise them.
And that is the exact crux of the argument encapsulated in two succinct paragraphs.
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"That wasn’t a debate so much as Mitt Romney just took Obama for a cross country drive strapped to the roof of his car." - Mark Hemingway, The Weekly Standard. |
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 BloodRosesAeolus, your daughter flies.Premium
join:2003-03-17
Louisville, KY | reply to RiseAbove
I myself have switched to a Galaxy Nexus with JB. It's smooth, fast, functional. Quite possibly the best mobile OS I've ever used, as I type this very message on an iPad 3 w/ iOS 6. For now I am an Android customer.
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Fairy Blessings,
Stefanie |
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