Topic 'Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame' in forum 'PC gaming GAMES' - dslreports.com

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Wed, 10 Oct 2012 21:06:50 EDT

Nesse posted :

said by Kaltes:

That is pretty retarded since I picked classes and specs that were actually the least-played. BM Hunter and Aff lock were the two least played specs for those classes in level 70/80 pvp.

I liked hunter because I liked BM. However BM was not viable later on, and was completely incapable of killing certain matchups, so I had to switch to my warlock alt as my new main, and he was my main for BC. I would have been happy to stay with BM hunter, but blizzard have me a choice between switching spec/class or consistently losing. BM was never a FotM and was never OP. It was popular for a very brief time when the BM tree was fleshed out earlier than the other 2 trees, but once the Marks tree had been updated all the hunters went Marks and Marks remained the dominant Hunter spec throughout the entire game's life cycle.

Affliction warlock was never a FOTM. It was a balanced class which was capable, with skill, of holding its own in any given matchup. Demonology and Destro were always more popular than Aff, which Destro being consistently the dominant spec.

When I finally picked Paladin, I did so purely because it was the 'safest' class to pick because Blizzard favored the class. It was never nerfed. Just because I said that I left after the pre-cata patch does not mean it was because of a nerf.

Im not sure we were playing the same versions of WoW. My personal favorite breed of Hunter was always Marksman. I recall when Beastmaster took over as the top talent tree... and it wasnt just for a few months. It was for a good while. I know this because I never switched to BM despite everyone requesting I do so. I forget how it came about. Possible nerf and/or expansion, but BM eventually became the WORST spec to have. But it wasnt MM that took over. it was Survival. And it had a huge lead over MM, which had a good sized lead over BM.

When I first read your original post of you jumping from class to class... I thought the very same thing. FOTM. To say you werent doing it is just silly. The idea behind picking up the Paly just to avoid being nerfed, knowing how OP Palys always were just further proves that you did in fact FOTH hop.

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Wed, 10 Oct 2012 14:44:46 EDT

TheThing posted : YOU SURE DO GOT A PERTY MOUTH

(that movie is Americana... I told the wife she had to watch it a least once... so many references to it in our culture)

The bobbie scene scared her permanently... every once in a while I tell her she's got a perty mouth

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Wed, 10 Oct 2012 14:39:38 EDT

Goggalor posted :

said by TheThing:

Changing the mechanics meant, that a class you fell in love with for a certain reason... was no longer the same thing.

Kinda like Ned Betty as Bobby Trippe in Deliverance.
--
From Psychonauts -
Lungfish Civilian: (describing Goggalor) He's impervious to bullets! ... and love!
--

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Wed, 10 Oct 2012 14:30:09 EDT

Phantasee posted : I have fallen back in love with almost all the classes again. Minus my mage and DK.

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Wed, 10 Oct 2012 14:29:07 EDT

Krisnatharok posted :

said by Kaltes:

Just because I said that I left after the pre-cata patch does not mean it was because of a nerf.

Uh huh.

said by Kaltes:

I owned everyone in the face. As a paladin, I would sometimes even go 3, 4, or 5 vs 1 and WIN. It was just stupid. I was prot spec. I would throw my shield and hit 3 targets for big damage and a snare. I would aoe on my normal attacks. I would self-heal CONSTANTLY for huge amounts thanks to a completely OP trait.

But then the pre-cata patch came out and radically changed balance, so I quit and never returned

--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Wed, 10 Oct 2012 14:20:54 EDT

TheThing posted : Changing the mechanics meant, that a class you fell in love with for a certain reason... was no longer the same thing.

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Wed, 10 Oct 2012 14:03:04 EDT

Kaltes posted :

said by Goggalor:

said by cymraeg:

so they balanced your pally, because you were op, and quit cause you werent owning ppl, sounds like huge qqing to me, wahhh wahhh im not the best anymore wah

Holy power was SO overpowered. Since I was new to paladin, the mechanic didn't piss me off, but long-time paladins I could see how completely changing your class mechanics overnight would piss you off. That's the problem with WoW, Blizzard kept thinking that completely changing the game's mechanics would somehow "refresh" the game and make it like a whole new thing, but the actual result is that most of the existing players, who were perfectly happy with the existing mechanics, get pissed off and hate having to re-learn how to play their class.

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Wed, 10 Oct 2012 13:49:36 EDT

Kaltes posted :

said by Krisnatharok:

That really does sound like you moving to each FOTM and then quitting when your character who could 1v5 was nerfed.

Pick the class you love and just play it. Stop going for the FOTM.

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Wed, 10 Oct 2012 13:42:09 EDT

TheThing posted : WoW PvP is JUNK... GARBAGE

perpetually inbalanced

how to win at WoW PvP?

have every class at max level... play what's OP... THE END

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Wed, 10 Oct 2012 13:40:42 EDT

Kaltes posted :

said by cymraeg:

so they balanced your pally, because you were op, and quit cause you werent owning ppl, sounds like huge qqing to me, wahhh wahhh im not the best anymore wah

Actually not at all. I did not quit because the pally was nerfed. Paladins were still strong. I think it's funny that you think paladins would EVER be balanced in that game.

No, Blizzard made the pre-Cata patch as the "let's break the game completely but then claim that it is balanced for 85 now, to force everyone to buy Cata to 'fix' the problems we introduced."

Basically damages were greatly increased, which allowed rogues and mages to two-shot people for about a month. Paladins couldn't two shot people, but were still a lot better off than most classes. I quit because the whole dynamic of pvp was ruined, intentionally, because Blizzard only cared about cata and shat on the rest of the game, plus I had no intention of playing cata.

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Wed, 10 Oct 2012 11:20:45 EDT

Ghastlyone posted : I don't get all the hatred towards WvW having zergs.

Almost any PVP in any game will always have some type of zerg happening. It's just the way it is. Especially when there's a massive amount of players participating.

Look at all the battle grounds in WoW. Even arenas. There's always some type of zerg happening.

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Wed, 10 Oct 2012 05:24:37 EDT

facepalm posted : lol. This thread is bringing back some memories.

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Tue, 09 Oct 2012 20:20:20 EDT

ohh posted : TheThing and Goggalor, very nice. LOL! Great movie and great way to derail a rant thread.

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Mon, 08 Oct 2012 18:37:11 EDT

TheThing posted : to be successful in WvW I think you would really need to approach it like a large raid in WoW

get about 20 people on vent, and really take is seriously

otherwise the mob sticks together like a school of fish... because when you leave the school, you get destroyed

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Mon, 08 Oct 2012 18:28:42 EDT

Gundy posted : I wish guild wars had a smaller type of 'arena' style combat. The zergfest REALLY gets old after awhile. Especially on dominating popular servers.

sPvp is fun, but thats it - no reward factor at all. WvW is alright for about 15 minutes then becomes who has the most rangers/elementalists for massive AoE.

Sorta down about this game, expected a lot more.
--
| Im not really a ego maniac im just really good at what I do... |

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Mon, 08 Oct 2012 13:32:14 EDT

JB posted :

said by cymraeg:

so they balanced your pally, because you were op, and quit cause you werent owning ppl, sounds like huge qqing to me, wahhh wahhh im not the best anymore wah

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Mon, 08 Oct 2012 13:28:14 EDT

TheThing posted : all they needed to do was nerf RET, not add holy power

holy power was a disgusting mechanic

I quit because every class I liked to play, they changed the play style, and then the classes I loved weren't fun anymore

So some dweeb who only raided didn't like a classes mechanics, so they changed it, which then ruined the class for PvP

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Mon, 08 Oct 2012 12:45:07 EDT

Goggalor posted :

said by cymraeg:

so they balanced your pally, because you were op, and quit cause you werent owning ppl, sounds like huge qqing to me, wahhh wahhh im not the best anymore wah

I quit WoW because the devs changed my pally, as well, though, I played as Ret. And, no, it was not that I could not kill people anymore, but because holy power is a piece of shit mechanic that was forced on to a class that had been around since launch.
--
From Psychonauts -
Lungfish Civilian: (describing Goggalor) He's impervious to bullets! ... and love!
--

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Mon, 08 Oct 2012 12:40:23 EDT

TheThing posted : Don't F with Jesus

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Mon, 08 Oct 2012 12:38:23 EDT

Goggalor posted :

said by ohh:

Well, like man. That is just your opinion or whatever. Gosh. :D

[att=1]

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Mon, 08 Oct 2012 12:03:15 EDT

TheThing posted : Sometimes theres a man... We're talking about the dude here... and what is a hero anyways... but sometimes theres a man... and sometimes...

well darn... just lost my train of thought

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Sun, 07 Oct 2012 16:31:17 EDT

ohh posted : Well, like man. That is just your opinion or whatever. Gosh. :D

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Sun, 07 Oct 2012 16:31:10 EDT

Krisnatharok posted : Or even simpler. Does X damage to NPCs, does X^Y to players and/or player pets.

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Sun, 07 Oct 2012 14:06:29 EDT

Josof posted :

said by Goggalor:

WoW's devs never did the simplest, yet most elegant fix: have PvP and PvE versions of the spells/abilities. Spell/Ability A does this much damage and/or crowd control against a PvP target, but does this much damage and/or crowd control against everything else. I mean, look at Polymorph; it already has two durations: one for PvP, one for PvE...

^this. most of my time in wow is spent pvp'ing and i never understood why the devs couldnt just come up with something similar to Goggalors fix.
--
"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat." - Sun Tzu

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Sat, 06 Oct 2012 10:31:24 EDT

I AM posted :

said by cymraeg:

so they balanced your pally, because you were op, and quit cause you werent owning ppl, sounds like huge qqing to me, wahhh wahhh im not the best anymore wah

HEHE.

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Sat, 06 Oct 2012 09:48:39 EDT

Krisnatharok posted : That really does sound like you moving to each FOTM and then quitting when your character who could 1v5 was nerfed.

Pick the class you love and just play it. Stop going for the FOTM.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Sat, 06 Oct 2012 09:41:16 EDT

cymraeg posted : so they balanced your pally, because you were op, and quit cause you werent owning ppl, sounds like huge qqing to me, wahhh wahhh im not the best anymore wah
--
Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau!
"What happened in here?" " Seems to have been a bit of a squabble." "They're all dead!" " More of a tif then."

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Fri, 05 Oct 2012 23:31:16 EDT

Kaltes posted :

said by Goggalor:

WoW's devs never did the simplest, yet most elegant fix: have PvP and PvE versions of the spells/abilities.

That is not just the simplest fix, it is mandatory. Guild Wars 1 had to do things that way. PvP and Pve are simply different games from a balance perspective. PvP must be finely tuned and nerf-heavy to whack-a-mole down an OP build that is ruining balance for everyone, but OP in pvp might be just fine in pve.

GW1 did it right. They allowed different versions of spells, sometimes changing the strength for pvp (always weaker), and sometimes changing the functionality entirely. Guild wars had to balance hundreds of skills and spells with near-infinite combinations, and yet it did a very good job. WoW had a much, much easier job and yet Blizzard did a pretty terrible job with balance.

Blizzard saying the game isn't balanced around 1v1s is just an excuse.

I played a BM Hunter originally. I eventually abandoned my hunter because hunter was not viable at all in certain matchups. Hunters were good at burning down squishies, but were terrible against heavy armor and medium armor +self-healing. I had a hybrid shaman heal through my burst and kill me purely with shocks (since I had no heals) even though I successfully kited him. I had a paladin fight last over 5 minutes where I couldnt possibly kill him because my damage could never outpace his (non-primary) heals and mana regen.

So I bit the bullet and roll warlock. Affliction. I owned for years. I got to keep a pet. I got to keep my primary playstyle of kiting. My damage was far higher and far more consistent. I could tank enemy casters and kite enemy melee. There was no matchup I couldn't win as long as I outplayed the other guy. I was happy with things until the talent trees got changed and aff locks got nerfed HARD to the point where shadow priests were basically changed to be a better dot class than we were. I stubborn refused to reroll and died a lot as I suddenly went from being somewhat tanky to being super squishy and losing most of my escapes, which I badly needed to kite with. Later on I bit the bullet and respeced to demonology because I could tolerate it, and it was pretty decent. I hated destro locks and refused to ever play as one no matter how much everyone ptried to force me to be one. I think I had guilds pretty much tell me to roll destro or I wouldnt be allowed on raids. too bad I couldn't care less about pve and never went on 1 raid after molten core in vanilla.

So since I had to play with my friends and I was hating being a lock, I rolled the 1 class I hated the most and KNEW that Blizzard would never nerf: paladin.

I owned everyone in the face. As a paladin, I would sometimes even go 3, 4, or 5 vs 1 and WIN. It was just stupid. I was prot spec. I would throw my shield and hit 3 targets for big damage and a snare. I would aoe on my normal attacks. I would self-heal CONSTANTLY for huge amounts thanks to a completely OP trait.

But then the pre-cata patch came out and radically changed balance, so I quit and never returned. Most everyone else I know who was into WoW quit after Cata came out.

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Fri, 05 Oct 2012 16:09:46 EDT

Goggalor posted : WoW's devs never did the simplest, yet most elegant fix: have PvP and PvE versions of the spells/abilities. Spell/Ability A does this much damage and/or crowd control against a PvP target, but does this much damage and/or crowd control against everything else. I mean, look at Polymorph; it already has two durations: one for PvP, one for PvE...

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Fri, 05 Oct 2012 15:49:05 EDT

facepalm posted : When Blizzard started fucking around trying to balance toons to please the (mainly) pvp whiners it ultimately drove pve people away. I was one that left because of it. I'd level a toon, start raiding, having fun, and then come patch time, BLAM. Relearn and/or reroll. I got sick of that shit after the 4th toon class got hammered by Blizz and gave up WoW. I had thousands and thousands of hours in the game and never went back. I've been looking for something to fill the void since then. I truly hope the GW2 devs are wiser than that.
--
Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not. ~ Thomas Jefferson

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Fri, 05 Oct 2012 12:24:57 EDT

TheThing posted : Arenas in WoW are mainly flawed because in WoW:

1v1 not balanced
2v2 not balanced
3v3 only balanced for very SPECIFIC comps... if at all
5v5 getting close to being balanced

arena in WoW was a bad idea, always was... why put micro PvP into a massive MMO?

that's why WvW in GW2 is so excellent, its truly massive PvP, the way its meant to be, and best way to balance around

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Thu, 04 Oct 2012 20:08:18 EDT

Kaltes posted :

said by footballdude:

said by Kaltes:

meaningful arena combat

Makes me cringe. Arena was a really bad idea that led to a number of other bad ideas in WoW. Please keep it out of GW2.

I didnt like arenas in WoW because it was so elitist and was set up so that high ranked players got better gear so they could easily dominate new players. Arenas worked great for a small hard core subset of players and was terrible for everyone else, including me.

In GW1, arenas were great. There was a level playing field and it came down to skill.

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Thu, 04 Oct 2012 14:30:12 EDT

pr1mo posted : sounds like you don't like gw2

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Thu, 04 Oct 2012 13:07:57 EDT

TheThing posted : some of these comments smell of Wintergrasp in WoW... giving bonuses to one side for certain aspects

here's a hint... wintergrasp was TERRIBLE

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Thu, 04 Oct 2012 12:58:30 EDT

Krisnatharok posted : Time to wildly imbalance one aspect of the game in an attempt to counter the latest OP FOTM!

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Thu, 04 Oct 2012 09:20:45 EDT

footballdude posted :

said by Kaltes:

meaningful arena combat

Makes me cringe. Arena was a really bad idea that led to a number of other bad ideas in WoW. Please keep it out of GW2.
--
Concentrated power has always been the enemy of liberty - Ronald Reagan

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Thu, 04 Oct 2012 06:54:38 EDT

Jaided posted : You make some decent points. I hope you've posted this in the GW2 forums for the developers to get your feedback.

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 19:14:09 EDT

Kaltes posted : if my zerg is significantly bigger than your zerg, my zerg will win every time. at most, my zerg only has to build its own siege to kill yours with and you cant sally to kill my siege since your team would just die.

my zerg cares not for holding points, only taking them. you can have them back after my team takes them if you like, because we will just come right back and take it right back, for yet another nice reward. eventually, after you see that my bigger zerg will always take points much faster than your smaller one, and so will therefore control more of the map, and if our zergs fight mine will always win... eventually your players will lose morale and leave, making my zerg's domination complete.

and that is pretty much how wvw goes.

Re: Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 18:37:44 EDT

TheThing posted : the zerg is punished

if you see a zerg, then something else of the enemy team is not defended enough, and you can usually take it with low numbers if you have the proper siege

you can defend against the zerg with proper siege equipment as well

but getting the whole team to cooperate is the hard part

because it becomes zerg vs. zerg, zerg attacks, gets wiped, they counter zerg and then wipe

Guild Wars 2 WvW is lame

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 18:29:58 EDT

Kaltes posted : I think WvW is poorly designed. Some reasons:

1. It is the only endgame pvp for GW2. (sPVP is just terrible and pointless with no rewards at all worth mentioning) Contrast this with Guild Wars 1 or WoW which have meaningful arena combat and battlegrounds-type combat (plus GW1 had several other pvp types).

2. WvW encourages a massive zerg, not strategy with distinct, coordinated groups. If one side has multiple groups and the other has 1 massive zerg, the zerg will win. Keeps drop fast to zergs but not to smaller groups. Supply camps cant be taken by smaller groups while the boss has that immunity buff, but a zerg can hit him so hard it pierces the buff and kills him anyway. More numbers is the answer to pretty much everything.

3. Fortifications do not do enough to help defenders. I can do full damage to defenders on walls with my engineer and necromancer using AOE (grenades, marks). Elementalists and Rangers get even bigger AOE. The walls are simply not safe when there are a lot of people on the ground. You have to make a lot of siege for the walls, but even if you position arrow carts as far back on the walls as you can, they will still get hit by aoe and destroyed pretty quickly if youre up against a big zerg.

4. Being grossly outnumbered doesn't make you stronger, it just gives you a small boost to XP MF and Karma. Huh? Conversely, the winning team gets big stat boosts from Orbs, helping the dominant team dominate that much more. This is partially why:

5. Being on the losing team is not fun and there is no incentive to play on the weaker side, so people don't, which only ensures easier domination by the winners.

_______________________________________________________

I think there needs to me more, a LOT more, for individual players and small groups of 3-5 to do. As of now, there is almost nothing you can meaningfully do on your own. I would say Alterac Valley in WoW got it right in 2005 with basic things like collecting blood, wolf skins, and so on, to be able to spawn NPCs or upgrade your side's NPCs. In WvW, upgrades are purely bought with silver. There need to be collection events as well, and there need to be a lot of SMALL points of interest that can be taken with a strong solo player or a small group and have some meaningful impact on the map. The quaggan should be one of MANY events instead of being the only event.

Losing teams should get buffs. If outnumbered, significant buffs to stats in 5% increments equal to about 25% of the disparity, capped at 100%. At 50%, all the (non-wvw) mobs on the map become green to you, so you can't farm them with your super stats. Losing teams should also get more and better NPC guards. Orbs should only give a MF/gold/xp/karma bonus, NOT anything for your stats.

There should be a difficulty progression where the keep/fort/etc closest to the spawn should be very easy to defend, and only lost in the most extreme cases. Border keeps should NOT be the toughest (they are now), the stuff in the middle should be more offense oriented and the stuff closest to the spawns should be more defense oriented. Rewards for taking them should be proportional to the difficulty.

There should be a lot more NPCs. There should be NPCs having their own battles, and the ebb and flow of NPCs, like league of legends, should change based on player actions. Players should be able to do events solo or in small groups to increase the number and/or quality of the NPCs they spawn and send into battle. Players should be able to do things like rescue trapped squads from cocoons by killing a spider queen, and escort these troops to safety, which will in turn increase your number of NPCs sent out. If one side is busy buffing their number and quality of NPCs, they could fight their way to a gate and start to take it down (slowly).

There should also be fun tactical ways to disrupt supply. For example, you could collect meat, and then take the event reward bundle of stinking meat to certain locations, like a bridge, and use it to attract a boss monster. BRIDGE TROLL. Now the troll will kill the enemy supply by itself unless the supply is well guarded.

The point is, players should feel like the things they do are having some kind of effect on the game, even if it isn't a huge one.

Next up: punish the zerg. Basically what you need to do is scatter control points around and make holding all of these points important to taking the main objective. A zerg fails in a battleground like arathi basin in WoW because 1 big invincible mass of players can only hold 1 point out of 5. Well in WvW just make it important that, in order to be able to take down a siege target, you hold these various control points. Supply camps serve this function but there are too few of them and theyre too big. There need to be more, smaller points to allow for some quality small-group combat. Add in troop camps which can spawn defenders if it is repaired, but which don't do anything for the attackers if its busted up. Put in field hospitals where defenders who control them get significantly faster respawn and healing rates. There are a lot of options, with the point being that there need to be a lot more to fight over beyond just a gate, so the game becomes more about coordination, strategy, and skill instead of purely a matter of which side has the bigger zerg.