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iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·Verizon Online DSL
·Comcast
reply to navyson

Re: FIOS internet - how much faster can FIOS get?

The issue at this point is that, for places that are getting the 305M treatment with Comcast, the cable company is setting up a full-on MetroE circuit to someone's house. That circuit can run up to one gigabit per second based on the hardware that they will install (router excepted). That means that Verizon has much less of a capacity lead when comparing their GPON network to Comcast's highest-end tier; either you've got a gigabit of capacity to one user or 2.5x that down and 1.25x that up shared between a few dozen.

That said, 500 Mbps down and 100 Mbps up would be very doable over GPON and force Comcast to up its MetroE-to-the-Home tier to compete. If Comcast upgrades its $300 per month tier again, it's easier for Verizon to swap out GPON for XGPON on a surgical basis (e.g. when someone orders a gigabit tier in an area, for $300 per month) than it is for Comcast to run fiber to the home anyway. In Verizon's case, they swap out one piece of equipment at the CO, plus maybe ONTs for the area. In Comcast's case, they have to string fiber. Plus XGPON has 10 Gbps of capacity on the downstream (roughly) and 2.5 Gbps on the upstream side...Comcast may have 10 Gbps symmetric going into an entire CMTS but at that point they're limited by the last mile again, which is too much work for practically no payoff.



Anon51

@verizon.net
reply to serge87

This guy is just blowing smoke with his "inside person". If this 500 meg tier was in the works, only a handful of people would know about it. Which means they would not tell their friend to post on a forum.

I wonder if his friend also mentioned the caps hinted at by President Bob Mudge in the video announcing Quantam back in May. Nobody reported on that.



DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000
reply to zippoboy7

said by zippoboy7:

said by Fyi :

Comcast is using 100% fiber for the 300+ tier, so I doubt it will share the over subscription problems of its copper

The over subscription problems has nothing to do with the last mile copper, they are at the connections between Comcast and Tata Communications which is one of the major tier 1 providers. Comcast purposefully saturates there connections to Tata to try and force people like Google/Netflix/etc... to peer directly with them by having there users bitch about buffering in videos or slowness viewing images or playing games.

Proof?


Smith6612
Premium,MVM
join:2008-02-01
North Tonawanda, NY
kudos:24
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
·Frontier Communi..

1 edit

Search for data on what happened to Comcast's service when they dropped Level3. TATA was their dump truck provider to the non-peered providers. Folks saw some nice speed hits and some websites that I currently cannot remember supplied some data that shows the ports to Comcast from TATA were running maxed at night. I'm sure it's not happening now but that is what happened.

When Sprint had an issue with Cogent back several years ago, you just lost access to Cogent's network. They didn't use another provider to get onto their network, but Sprint is probably a different Tier provider.



DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000
reply to navyson

I have no doubts they had a maxed out Router/Link. Almost every ISP experiences this from time to time.

What I doubt is that it was sustained and still going on to this day, and I seriously doubt the motives suggested here.


serge87

join:2009-11-29
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Anon51

said by Anon51 :

This guy is just blowing smoke with his "inside person". If this 500 meg tier was in the works, only a handful of people would know about it. Which means they would not tell their friend to post on a forum.

That's why I'd love to hear what nycdave has to say about this, because he's a no-nonsense guy


bigdaddy

join:2009-11-18
kudos:2

Bump


serge87

join:2009-11-29
reply to navyson

Having just gotten the 300mbps plan I'm still interested in this(even though it's rumor at best)



bohratom
Jersey Shore is back again.

join:2011-07-07
Red Bank NJ
reply to Jackarino

said by Jackarino:

Im still waiting for my CO to got GPON!

+1, U served out of Freehold I take it?

Sammer

join:2005-12-22
Canonsburg, PA
reply to ITALIAN926

said by ITALIAN926:

With GPON having to share 2.4Gbps among 16 or 32 customers, I doubt very much they will offer that much individual speed.

GPON can be up to 1 Gbps symmetrical but yes it would be overbooked if 16 users all used that at exactly the same time.


mig288
Premium
join:2002-07-13
Cherry Hill, NJ
reply to ITALIAN926

I need that connection.. lol. That's some serious speed there.



Jackarino
YacCity
Premium
join:2006-12-28
Allendale, NJ
kudos:1
reply to bohratom

Possibly, Im not sure.

My shore house in Ocean Grove is on GPON
--
Romney - Ryan 2012
Christie 2016



bigdaddy

join:2009-11-18
kudos:2
reply to Sammer

said by Sammer:

said by ITALIAN926:

With GPON having to share 2.4Gbps among 16 or 32 customers, I doubt very much they will offer that much individual speed.

GPON can be up to 1 Gbps symmetrical but yes it would be overbooked if 16 users all used that at exactly the same time.

So GPON's Max Upload Speed potential 1.244 Gbps split 32 way's is 38.875Mpbs. So how can VZ offer 65Mpbs Upload over GPON via the 150/65 and 300/65 Tiers isn't that a Recipe for Over Subscription ? Now XG-PON has a Max Upload Speed of 2.5Gbps split that 32 way's you come out with 78.125Mbps per user. Why doesn't VZ roll out XG-PON for the FiOS Quantum Tiers ?

Same go's for Down Speed GPON 2.448Gbps split 32 way's is 77.75Mbps. XG-PON split 32 way's is 312.5Mbps. The FiOS Quantum 300/65 should be on XG-PON Not GPON. So how in the World is VZ FiOS Going to offer 500/65 ? Like I said a Recipe for Over Subscription.


ITALIAN926

join:2003-08-16
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 edit

What % of people do you think are uploading more than 35Mbps at any given moment? The only people eating this bandwidth constantly are the copyright infringers, and fortunately, the majority of people in this country still follow the laws.

You dont think this company can monitor usage for the entire PON? come on now.

... and by the way, Netflix uses up the most bandwidth on the net, Max 5Mbps per user. If every Verizon customer was streaming netflix all at the same time, it would have zero impact on their PONS, even BPON.


McBane

join:2008-08-22
Plano, TX

It really depends on the area you live. When I lived on a college apartment complex that had FiOS when it first came out we maxed the BPON upload constantly, and this was back when 25 up was the max. Guess what? It was pretty much all copyright infringers. If you live in an area with a lot of high tech or IT workers your going to see that problem dramatically increase. Now we have Netflix and streaming services so it helps alleviate the problem, though. This was back in '06 through '09 when I lived in those apartments.



bigdaddy

join:2009-11-18
kudos:2
reply to navyson

Guy's Let's not get into Copyright's here. My point was Purely Technical in nature. That said my concern is of over subscription of VZ FiOS's network and the of lack XG-PON for FiOS Quantum.


serge87

join:2009-11-29
reply to navyson

There is no XGPON yet because GPON hasn't been exhausted yet, end of story.



ITALIAN926

join:2003-08-16
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to bigdaddy

Technical in nature??. I asked you a question, what % of people are using that upload , 24-7, 7 days a week. Moral: no oversubscription issues. End of story.

We all know the torrent people disagree, but the overwhelming majority of customers still use the net, TO BROWSE. Very little upload is being utilized.

My cousin is a photographer. Uploads heavy duty files in email, he uses his connection maybe 5 minutes a day, the rest of the time its basically completely unused for browsing purposes.

The people kicking and screaming over upload/download speeds ARE the Torrent people. This takes away revenue from the MSO's, and entertainment/software industry. Then nobody understand why these companies are extremely slow to upgrade networks. So funny.



birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9

said by ITALIAN926:

Technical in nature??. I asked you a question, what % of people are using that upload , 24-7, 7 days a week. Moral: no oversubscription issues. End of story.

It's mere coincidence, I'm sure, that a person with username in all caps engages in an OT conversation and disregards the request to get back on topic. We've seen this before.


ITALIAN926

join:2003-08-16
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

2 edits

Youre right, its not related at all. Sigh.

How the internet is actually USED, and what applications ARE USED, have everything to do with this topic, and what upgrades Verizon has planned.

CAPS IN MY NAME means what? does that mean that people who have all lowercase are mental midgets?

The only reason these companies bump their speeds are for bragging rights, and for advertising purposes.
A mere coincedence that when VZ releases 300Mbps, Comcast comes out with their own FTTP at 305Mbps, right?

The truth and reality sucks, I know. Deal with it pirates.



bigdaddy

join:2009-11-18
kudos:2

said by ITALIAN926:

The truth and reality sucks, I know. Deal with it pirates.

Again with the Pirates ?

There are other legal uses of your bandwidth besides P2P and file sharing. Such as slingbox's, streaming your own media to mobile devices, VPN from a vacation home take your pick. Again Please enough with the Copyrights !



ITALIAN926

join:2003-08-16
kudos:2

Bottom line BD, is Verizon knows entirely how much bandwidth is being used up on each PON. They will upgrade when they feel its necessary, and as of right now, there are basically no over-subscription issues.


cramer
Premium
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
kudos:8
reply to bigdaddy

Actually, it's a lot more complicated. And has next to nothing to do with "pirates". While bittorrenters are a vocal crowd, EVERYONE benefits from higher upstream rates. Few people realized just how much upstream traffic they generate daily. Nor do they realize just how much of their time is spent/wasted simply waiting for data to get through. Use dialup for a day if you doubt me.

Bottom line... most cable operators have been increasing their upstream rates because they have to. The very low upstream speed inhibits faster downstream speeds. (TCP ACK traffic is not zero.) In the real world (where there's more than one tcp connection), 384k up begins to be a problem around 10M down.

[Edit: For the record, VZ demo'd a 10G MDU a very long time ago. The demand / need for 10G residential service just isn't there today.]



birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9
reply to ITALIAN926

said by ITALIAN926:

CAPS IN MY NAME means what? does that mean that people who have all lowercase are mental midgets?

It was a subtle dig where all caps is shouting and you persist in kicking and screaming about torrent people who kick and scream about upload/downloads. Lowercase usernames do not signify mental midgets. Hell, I can't even spell birdfeeder correctly, so username really doesn't mean much anyway. It's just a tag.

I apologize for painting you with such a broad brush. In some matters, silence is the golden rule. I forgot that for a moment.

Carry on.

serge87

join:2009-11-29
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

reply to navyson

Just a F.Y.I: Not everyone who gets the 150 or 300Mbit speed plans torrents or uses their connections illegally




said by cramer:

Bottom line... most cable operators have been increasing their upstream rates because they have to. The very low upstream speed inhibits faster downstream speeds. (TCP ACK traffic is not zero.) In the real world (where there's more than one tcp connection), 384k up begins to be a problem around 10M down.

Good point. In my experience, TCP ACK traffic is roughly 6-8% of total download bandwidth being used so your analogy is spot on


aaronwt
Premium
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA

1 recommendation

reply to bigdaddy

said by bigdaddy:

said by ITALIAN926:

The truth and reality sucks, I know. Deal with it pirates.

Again with the Pirates ?

There are other legal uses of your bandwidth besides P2P and file sharing. Such as slingbox's, streaming your own media to mobile devices, VPN from a vacation home take your pick. Again Please enough with the Copyrights !


Don't forget about backups. Most of my upload bandwidth is used for my cloud storage.

batsona
Maryland

join:2004-04-17
Ellicott City, MD
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·Vonage
reply to DataRiker

DataRiker says:
The over subscription problems has nothing to do with the last mile copper, they are at the connections between Comcast and Tata Communications which is one of the major tier 1 providers. Comcast purposefully saturates there connections to Tata to try and force people like Google/Netflix/etc... to peer directly with them by having there users bitch about buffering in videos or slowness viewing images or playing games.
------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly! If John Q. Public runs a webserver that's on 100mbit Ethernet in a co-location facility, access to this webserver won't get any faster, if his 1,000 customers all sign up for 5,000,000/3,000,000 FIOS in the year 2030. Another analogy would that if you give everyone on the highway Mustang Cobras, and tell them to go 120Mph on the highway, this means everyone can get hamburgers at Sonic twice as fast, right? Unfortunately no....



danclan

join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA

They don't need to force them to directly to peer. Many will do so because it makes economic and customer sense.

Conversely, Comcast and others don't necessarily care that these competitors have slow connections. It serves their interests for them to be purposely slow so that their last mile customers will want make use of Comcast's VOD services vs. buying content elsewhere.

They also can delay router upgrades for the same reasons.



Active Opto

@lstn.net
reply to bigdaddy

said by bigdaddy:

So GPON's Max Upload Speed potential 1.244 Gbps split 32 way's is 38.875Mpbs. So how can VZ offer 65Mpbs Upload over GPON via the 150/65 and 300/65 Tiers isn't that a Recipe for Over Subscription ? Now XG-PON has a Max Upload Speed of 2.5Gbps split that 32 way's you come out with 78.125Mbps per user. Why doesn't VZ roll out XG-PON for the FiOS Quantum Tiers ?

Same go's for Down Speed GPON 2.448Gbps split 32 way's is 77.75Mbps. XG-PON split 32 way's is 312.5Mbps. The FiOS Quantum 300/65 should be on XG-PON Not GPON. So how in the World is VZ FiOS Going to offer 500/65 ? Like I said a Recipe for Over Subscription.

Contention and split ratios are the least worrisome point for passive optical networks(GPON and 10G XG-PON) on last mile connections.
They can be planned carefully from the start to limit the number per port according to how much bandwidth the operator intends to sell.
However it doesn't make much sense to go with very low contention with passive networks (1:8 or 1:4), instead operators prefer to do it with P2P since it does not justify for much cost savings to do so.

The 2 major concerns with GPON/XG-PON instead are:

1) How are you going to feed the monster OLT box backplane connection that connects it back to the core aggregation switches.

2) How to tame monster OLT box with the high number of connections and traffic it has to handle as subscriber rate scales to peak numbers. It requires a monster processing power to handle thousands of simultaneous users compared to dedicated ports for active Ethernet users?If each subscriber creates >64 connections, it's enough to cause massive congestion, thus causing huge spikes in latencies during peak hours.

Just to compare, this is one of the highest capacity and latest OLT product from Calix.[Note: Current present GPON OLTs on average only handles about 200Gbps for backplane connections]
»www.calix.com/systems/e-series/c···-20.html

Key highlights to note(quoted from site):
-2 terabit backplane with 100 Gbps connection to each line card slot
-Serves 480 point-to-point GE or over 10,000 GPON subscribers, with the capacity to serve over 20,000 subscribers through higher density line cards in the future

So if you just do a simple calculation:
The latest GPON/XG-PON line cards have 8 ports today.
Assume they are selling a 1Gbps service.
If each card has ONLY a 100gbps to breath, while each port handles 30 lines(32 in theory with 2 often reserved) on a passive splitter,
8 x 32 lines/ONTs x 1Gbps = 256Gbps diet
[Compare this again to active ethernet, 480ports/20 line cards you get only around 24 ports to share the 100Gbps load on each line card - That'a nearly 10x more capacity for each line card (256/24)]
*Important note: In reality, many ISPs are only giving 1x-4x 10GE Ethernet lines to their OLTs backplane. Complains are already coming in mostly during peak hours.

Next comes switching speed and connection load handling between users. Cisco claims they can handle terabit speeds with their active switches with at most only caters around 400 dedicated ports , but how about a high capacity OLT that claims to handle 10k to 20k users simultaneously? That's quite a monster to tame.

McBane

join:2008-08-22
Plano, TX

FiOS, it sucks less than cable. You just have to rationalize it even though it's the same problems on fiber instead of coax.