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JohnInSJ
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

JohnInSJ to dellsweig

Premium Member

to dellsweig

Re: [rant] Dont they get it - its not just the hardware

said by scross:

said by JohnInSJ:

Well, by that definition, we can start to talk. Constant stream zero-day patches? Nope. Same stream as all other OSes, yep.

Well, having worked with quite a few operating systems in my time (I've been in the IT business for over 30 years now), Windows is the only one so far that NEEDS a constant stream (monthly, biweekly, out-of-band, or whatever) of zero-day exploit and similar patches.

Sigh... the old "having worked in IT for 30 years" story. Hey, me too. On OSes from Unix (you know, the real live Unix) to CP/M-80, and just about everything in-between. I have a masters degree in computer science, too. Do I get a cookie?

If you insist on holding to this bogus line of reasoning, then indeed I leave you in the capable hands of Apple. Enjoy.
scross
join:2002-09-13
USA

scross

Member

said by JohnInSJ:

Sigh... the old "having worked in IT for 30 years" story. Hey, me too. On OSes from Unix (you know, the real live Unix) to CP/M-80, and just about everything in-between. I have a masters degree in computer science, too. Do I get a cookie?

If you insist on holding to this bogus line of reasoning, then indeed I leave you in the capable hands of Apple. Enjoy.

I'm sure you have! But not only have I worked with everything from CP/M and DOS to several versions of "real live Unix", but I've also worked with platforms that blew Unix and Windows out of the water, and that were "beyond the state of the art" when they first came out ages ago - and still are in many respects. It's unfortunate that you have never had that privilege yourself.

And I never said I was going to Apple, now did I? I said that others in my family had or at least wanted to, and that I was even considering it myself, but it probably wouldn't be my first choice. Not because it's not a good choice, but because I don't necessarily want to get pigeon-holed into a single platform, like the general PC world has been.
67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

67845017 (banned)

Member

I think IT has passed you by. Your words indicate that you're too old to understand what is going on and why.

Insight6
join:2012-08-25

Insight6

Member

said by 67845017:

I think IT has passed you by. Your words indicate that you're too old to understand what is going on and why.

Your response is rude, obnoxious, and an unprovoked personal insult or attack on a fellow member. It has no basis in reality.

All though I may not agree with all of the points scross makes or have his level of technical expertise, education, and skill I don't have to in order to reach the conclusion that he is polite, responsive and posts on topic and in good-faith.

You on the other hand "talk," write and reason as a stereotypical abrasive attorney.

JohnInSJ
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

JohnInSJ to scross

Premium Member

to scross
said by scross:

I'm sure you have! But not only have I worked with everything from CP/M and DOS to several versions of "real live Unix", but I've also worked with platforms that blew Unix and Windows out of the water, and that were "beyond the state of the art" when they first came out ages ago - and still are in many respects. It's unfortunate that you have never had that privilege yourself.

Please name one of these platforms.

Thaler
Premium Member
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA

Thaler

Premium Member

Etch A Sketch.

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium Member
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170

skeechan to JohnInSJ

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to JohnInSJ
OS-9 for the 6809 Still around after 30+ years. /thread
scross
join:2002-09-13
USA

scross to JohnInSJ

Member

to JohnInSJ
said by JohnInSJ:

Please name one of these platforms.

The IBM midrange and mainframe platforms are still around and still going strong, in spite of what Microsoft might have you believe; I have a long history with what used to be called the iSeries myself, and it is probably the finest platform that I have ever worked on and will ever work on, despite it being a bit long-in-the-tooth now, at least according to some people. Their AIX platforms are still around, too, although they have consolidated a lot of this stuff on POWER hardware these days, so sometimes it's hard to tell what's what. Before I worked on AIX I worked with AT&T's UNIX System V, running on their 3B2 platform at the time, but that's been ages ago now. Somewhere around here I still have a book with a bootleg copy of the early UNIX source code in it, and I have a former colleague who used to work at Bell Labs itself, for the guys who invented the C language.

DEC is still around in some fashion, too, although I don't know what name it goes under now. There's a lot of supercomputer stuff out there that used to run under Unix but now runs under Linux, although the trend these days is to gang a bunch of high-end graphics cards together and call that a supercomputer, probably running Linux.

At any given moment you are literally surrounded with embedded computer hardware that you may not even realize exists. My MIL has an early HDTV that runs Linux. My newer HDTVs probably do, too, but I've never looked into it. I know my set-top boxes run WinCE, which no doubt explains some of their flakiness, but I expect that I would find my routers run Linux if I dug into it; I know some of my now retired ones did, plus I had a high-end one at one time which ran Cisco's IOS. Most of the rest of the embedded stuff runs some appropriate embedded OS, none of which is related to Windows. Heck, even the Z80 platform, which dates back to the 1970s, is still around and still going strong in the embedded world.

PC-centric people generally don't have a clue about any of this stuff, so it's always amusing to try to discuss it with them. Their world seems to begin and end with whatever Microsoft tells them, and I always find it hard to hold my tongue when they start going on about how great Microsoft is and how ubiquitous it is.

Thaler
Premium Member
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA

1 recommendation

Thaler

Premium Member

Alright...and so, how many of these embedded computer systems have to worry about an ever-changing internet presence threatening to compromise their security? Even if my in-dash car GPS had an exploit...how exactly would it ever get exploited?

Long story short, these systems could very well have similar security loopholes as Windows (or Mac, Linux, iOS, Android, pick your internet-connected flavor) but no accessible means for an attacker to even attempt to compromise them.
scross
join:2002-09-13
USA

scross

Member

I never claimed that embedded systems were particularly secure (not to the level of the other systems that I mentioned, anyway), I was only pointing out that they are numerous and ubiquitous - and in some ways, at least, still superior to Windows (in the way they manage resources, for example, which may be very limited) even if they are of an ancient pedigree. But to answer your question, many of these embedded systems are now connecting to the internet, too, and many are now leveraging wireless communications, both of which open them up to modes of attack that they didn't have to concern themselves with before. So they've had to go back and wrap themselves in layers of security which they haven't had before, but which many other computer systems have had from day one.

You might find this interesting reading, for example: »Dude Your Car is PWND !
67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

1 edit

67845017 (banned) to Insight6

Member

to Insight6
said by Insight6:

said by 67845017:

I think IT has passed you by. Your words indicate that you're too old to understand what is going on and why.

Your response is rude, obnoxious, and an unprovoked personal insult or attack on a fellow member. It has no basis in reality.

All though I may not agree with all of the points scross makes or have his level of technical expertise, education, and skill I don't have to in order to reach the conclusion that he is polite, responsive and posts on topic and in good-faith.

You on the other hand "talk," write and reason as a stereotypical abrasive attorney.

What? The old semi-joke is that a parent needs to ask their kid for answers if a computer question comes up. At some point the younger and next generation (especially in fast moving technology) know more than the older generation. Especially if the older generation has constantly been training to keep up with technology.

Actually, I think your response is rude and obnoxious. I have over 30 years of experience with computers and got me EE back in '87, so I know exactly what I'm talking about when I say that times may have passed him by. It happens all the time.
67845017

67845017 (banned) to Thaler

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to Thaler
said by Thaler:

Alright...and so, how many of these embedded computer systems have to worry about an ever-changing internet presence threatening to compromise their security? Even if my in-dash car GPS had an exploit...how exactly would it ever get exploited?

Long story short, these systems could very well have similar security loopholes as Windows (or Mac, Linux, iOS, Android, pick your internet-connected flavor) but no accessible means for an attacker to even attempt to compromise them.

And that is the exact crux of the argument encapsulated in two succinct paragraphs.
scross
join:2002-09-13
USA

scross to 67845017

Member

to 67845017
said by 67845017:

What? The old semi-joke is that a parent needs to ask their kid for answers if a computer question comes up. At some point the younger and next generation (especially in fast moving technology) know more than the older generation. Especially if the older generation has constantly been training to keep up with technology.

Actually, I think your response is rude and obnoxious. I have over 30 years of experience with computers and got me EE back in '87, so I know exactly what I'm talking about when I say that times may have passed him by. It happens all the time.

Just so you know, my very computer literate teenager asks me computer questions all the time - although she will on occasion surprise and delight me by having done considerable research and footwork on her own first. Lately she's been asking me a big one, too - "Daddy, when can I get a Mac like mom has?" But most of her questions center around "What the heck is wrong with this Windows computer anyway?", and this just gets exhausting after a while. A quick perusal of the event logs suggest problems with the registry (another fine Microsoft "innovation", that was), specifically the extended locking of same, but she won't let me have access to the machine long enough to really dig into it. Instead she just curses under her breath and reboots (or tries to), which is something of a way of life for Windows users, including myself.

Just so you know, she was initially delighted with Win7, which came installed on a new laptop that we bought for her. "Great", I thought, "maybe they've actually made some real improvements there!" Her happiness lasted about two weeks - or up to about the time I started having to put patches on it.

JohnInSJ
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

JohnInSJ to scross

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to scross
said by scross:

said by JohnInSJ:

Please name one of these platforms.

The IBM midrange and mainframe platforms are still around and still going strong, in spite of what Microsoft might have you believe; I have a long history with what used to be called the iSeries myself, and it is probably the finest platform that I have ever worked on and will ever work on, despite it being a bit long-in-the-tooth now, at least according to some people. Their AIX platforms are still around, too, although they have consolidated a lot of this stuff on POWER hardware these days, so sometimes it's hard to tell what's what. Before I worked on AIX I worked with AT&T's UNIX System V, running on their 3B2 platform at the time, but that's been ages ago now. Somewhere around here I still have a book with a bootleg copy of the early UNIX source code in it, and I have a former colleague who used to work at Bell Labs itself, for the guys who invented the C language.

Oh, ok, I have ancient systems experiences too. AIX would just be Unix. Heck, HP's MPE on the HP 3000 minicomputer was awesome back when disk drives were the size of washing machines. Without a doubt, any platform that only had to defend against local attack would indeed be far more stable. I grew up on mainfraimes & mini computers in the late 70s/early 80s too, and those things are a far cry from anything intended to be a general purpose computer on the Internet run by a home user. Ditto with embedded - most of which are going linux these days, but of course there are may other embedded OSes, of which I developed on three. The last being VxWorks, which was used on a line of HP cameras that I did some firmware work on.

You really can't compare these types of systems (either that predate the modern connected world, or are firmware based and not fungible) to a modern always connected OS running untrusted applications by untrained users who have root/admin privileges. You can harden a system, but the weak link is always at the keyboard
scross
join:2002-09-13
USA

scross

Member

said by JohnInSJ:

Oh, ok, I have ancient systems experiences too. AIX would just be Unix. Heck, HP's MPE on the HP 3000 minicomputer was awesome back when disk drives were the size of washing machines. Without a doubt, any platform that only had to defend against local attack would indeed be far more stable. I grew up on mainfraimes & mini computers in the late 70s/early 80s too, and those things are a far cry from anything intended to be a general purpose computer on the Internet run by a home user. Ditto with embedded - most of which are going linux these days, but of course there are may other embedded OSes, of which I developed on three. The last being VxWorks, which was used on a line of HP cameras that I did some firmware work on.

You really can't compare these types of systems (either that predate the modern connected world, or are firmware based and not fungible) to a modern always connected OS running untrusted applications by untrained users who have root/admin privileges. You can harden a system, but the weak link is always at the keyboard

But indeed, no matter how old the pedigree of these systems (and they're not standing still by a long shot, but are constantly being updated in order to stay modern), all of them (including the embedded ones) are now routinely being connected to the internet - and you might recall that the internet was actually invented on some of these machines, so these predate any other internet connectivity. Yet these systems appear to have far smaller attack surfaces than anything that Microsoft produces, even if they didn't start off as hardened as they needed to be.

And before you go any further down the "you just can't compare them" road, remember that it is Microsoft that comes in and lies and says that their systems are just as good if not better than other enterprise-class systems, which is clearly not the case. And when push comes to shove, very often the only way they can get the business is by massively undercutting the initial cost of their presumed "competitors". This has become something of a running joke in the industry - Microsoft can't compete on quality so they have to compete on price - and indeed one of the easiest ways to squeeze a ton of bucks out of them is to let them know that you just aren't really that interested in their products.

The whole "end user problem" is one reason why things are today trending back to a more centralized model (browser-based, quite often), where those people who are better trained in security matters and who are more responsible than the typical end user can keep better control over things. Theoretically, that is - I'm not sure that I trust many of the folks these days who claim to be well-versed in these areas.
67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

67845017 (banned) to scross

Member

to scross
said by scross:

said by 67845017:

What? The old semi-joke is that a parent needs to ask their kid for answers if a computer question comes up. At some point the younger and next generation (especially in fast moving technology) know more than the older generation. Especially if the older generation has constantly been training to keep up with technology.

Actually, I think your response is rude and obnoxious. I have over 30 years of experience with computers and got me EE back in '87, so I know exactly what I'm talking about when I say that times may have passed him by. It happens all the time.

Just so you know, my very computer literate teenager asks me computer questions all the time - although she will on occasion surprise and delight me by having done considerable research and footwork on her own first. Lately she's been asking me a big one, too - "Daddy, when can I get a Mac like mom has?" But most of her questions center around "What the heck is wrong with this Windows computer anyway?", and this just gets exhausting after a while. A quick perusal of the event logs suggest problems with the registry (another fine Microsoft "innovation", that was), specifically the extended locking of same, but she won't let me have access to the machine long enough to really dig into it. Instead she just curses under her breath and reboots (or tries to), which is something of a way of life for Windows users, including myself.

Just so you know, she was initially delighted with Win7, which came installed on a new laptop that we bought for her. "Great", I thought, "maybe they've actually made some real improvements there!" Her happiness lasted about two weeks - or up to about the time I started having to put patches on it.

Interesting. I have three kids ranging from 16 to 10 and all three of them have no problems with Windows 7. I draw my own conclusions from this . . .
67845017

67845017 (banned) to scross

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to scross
said by scross:

it is Microsoft that comes in and lies

This says it all. You're one of "those", so there really isn't any reasonable conversation that can be held with you.
scross
join:2002-09-13
USA

scross to 67845017

Member

to 67845017
said by 67845017:

Interesting. I have three kids ranging from 16 to 10 and all three of them have no problems with Windows 7. I draw my own conclusions from this . . .

She (like me) really pushes the envelope sometimes, doing multiple things at once and sometimes switching rapidly between them, and she expects her computer to keep up with her - only it doesn't, much of the time. If your kids don't do this, well ... they are your kids, after all, so I don't know what I'd expect from them. You can draw your own conclusions from that, too.

Remember the good old days, working with those "ancient" systems, which had limited processing power and limited memory and so on, but they were still so stable and reliable and almost never rolled over on you? And today we have super-fast quad-core processors and such, with gigabytes of memory, yet I generally don't see anywhere near the stability and reliability that I saw back then. It is Windows which robs you of most of those advantages.
scross

scross to 67845017

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to 67845017
said by 67845017:

said by scross:

it is Microsoft that comes in and lies

This says it all. You're one of "those", so there really isn't any reasonable conversation that can be held with you.

I base this on first-hand experience, my friend. One of the companies I used to work for sued Microsoft over this and won. Then the CIO left for another job and his replacement eventually tried to buddy up to Microsoft again after they made him some new empty promises, despite being warned against it. He eventually got fired for this, but not before wasting a ton of the company's money.

And so it goes ...
67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

67845017 (banned) to scross

Member

to scross
said by scross:

said by 67845017:

Interesting. I have three kids ranging from 16 to 10 and all three of them have no problems with Windows 7. I draw my own conclusions from this . . .

She (like me) really pushes the envelope sometimes, doing multiple things at once and sometimes switching rapidly between them, and she expects her computer to keep up with her - only it doesn't, much of the time. If your kids don't do this, well ... they are your kids, after all, so I don't know what I'd expect from them. You can draw your own conclusions from that, too.

Remember the good old days, working with those "ancient" systems, which had limited processing power and limited memory and so on, but they were still so stable and reliable and almost never rolled over on you? And today we have super-fast quad-core processors and such, with gigabytes of memory, yet I generally don't see anywhere near the stability and reliability that I saw back then. It is Windows which robs you of most of those advantages.

Maybe you need to work with her some more or get some additional training yourself. After all . . . she is your child.

Your anti-MS bias is so strong that you don't probably really understand the underlying issues. See, I did x86 chip design at the gate level, PC design at the motherboard level and software/firmware design. I understand how these things work. I don't blindly hate MS.
said by scross:

said by 67845017:

said by scross:

it is Microsoft that comes in and lies

This says it all. You're one of "those", so there really isn't any reasonable conversation that can be held with you.

I base this on first-hand experience, my friend. One of the companies I used to work for sued Microsoft over this and won. Then the CIO left for another job and his replacement eventually tried to buddy up to Microsoft again after they made him some new empty promises, despite being warned against it. He eventually got fired for this, but not before wasting a ton of the company's money.

And so it goes ...

Case number and/or name?
scross
join:2002-09-13
USA

4 edits

scross

Member

said by 67845017:

Case number and/or name?

Dunno, that's probably been 10 or 15 years ago now, at least, and they may have settled out of court. I wasn't directly involved with it so I don't know all of the details, and what details I learned about it I heard second-hand, well after the fact. I do recall that part of it revolved around Microsoft trying to claim ownership of company code that they themselves didn't write, where the company had to step in and write code because the Microsoft products weren't up to snuff. Microsoft taking some company employees away with them may have played a role, too, but I don't really remember. I do know that Microsoft and those ex-employees were not highly thought of when I first got there, and it wasn't until we got a new CIO later (a PC guy who knew nothing else about computers - certainly nothing about the core systems we ran at the time) and several years went by before all of a sudden he wanted us to put Microsoft products everywhere (not that we didn't have enough already). He had made several expensive fumbles in the interim, and this was one of the last straws that broke the camel's back.

JohnInSJ
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

JohnInSJ to scross

Premium Member

to scross
said by scross:

But indeed, no matter how old the pedigree of these systems (and they're not standing still by a long shot, but are constantly being updated in order to stay modern), all of them (including the embedded ones) are now routinely being connected to the internet

and embedded system connected to the Internet is not the same as a general purpose computer connected to the internet. But I suspect we are going to argue this until the end of time without reaching consensus.

Metatron2008
You're it
Premium Member
join:2008-09-02
united state

Metatron2008

Premium Member

An embedded system is not one where people can modify, which letting people modify can bring even linux systems down.

But coming from somebody who would rather have OSX, a system where they update security patches far less often then their linux counterparts (And get owned in competitions like own to pwn), not to mention a system that has been bogged down to where it doesn't use resources well since lion and mountain lion came out (I have specifically gone thru resources used for all 3, snow leopard was far better at resource management), I am not surprised at your obtuse remarks scross.

If you really wanted a good resourse managed OS you'd say linux.

But hell, your hate of Microsoft also seems to come from what you heard at work that you can't even give details on, that you didn't experience yourself

Which you then call 'first hand knowledge', because obviously, hearing something is the same as first hand

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
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join:2012-01-26
AA169|170

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skeechan to JohnInSJ

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to JohnInSJ
No, it's worse because companies don't bother trying to secure them. They don't take PLC/embedded security seriously. And given they run just about everything in civil infrastructure makes it an infinitely larger problem than what goes on in the desktop market. The desktop market is simply a matter of inconvenience. Imagine the consequences of shutting the recirculating pumps of a nuclear reactor off. Actually, we don't have to imagine

Just ask the Iranians about how their strategy of keeping PLCs off the web worked out.

Metatron2008
You're it
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join:2008-09-02
united state

Metatron2008

Premium Member

(this reply is to scross)

With all this said, you certainly have the same irrational hatred of Microsoft that my linux friends have.

I don't get people like you. You don't seem to understand that your embedded system, or linux systems, are only secure because you program them a certain way and then users don't get to install software.

The reason why hackers attack the microsft OS is simply due to market share. There's only about 4 versions of windows where they did redesigns:

windows 1-3.11
Windows 95-me
windows 2000/xp/nt/server to 2003
windows vista/7/8/server from 2008 onward

Pretty much the same kind of OS is on hundreds of millions of pcs, each with users capable of installing programs.

This is not the same as embedded systems. You can't fucking install apps on cars or microwaves using the same exact os on hundreds of millions of cars and microwaves.

The same with linux to a degree. Linux is safe because you yourself can modify it. You get some serious marketshare and hackers would attack it.

There are actually trojans and rootkits for linux, don't believe me, look online.

You can have your little irrational hatred of microsoft, but you try making an embedded system with the ability to install apps on hundreds of millions of microwaves and you'll have a virus issue as well.
Metatron2008

Metatron2008

Premium Member

And one final thing:

The resource management of xp was decent. When they redesigned Windows for security and whatnot, the resource management of vista was horrible (After a couple service packs, not super bad)

7 was decent, but 8 actually has pretty good resource management. I hate 8, but there's that at least.

skeechan
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skeechan

Premium Member

The problem with XP is it didn't ship with AV and if it did, Symantec and everyone else would cry for JD intervention.

If Windows shipped with Giant's software on it, security essentials or whatever it's called, Windows security wouldn't be nearly as problematic as it appears.

There is no such thing as a secure system, whether connected to the Internet or not, so long as you have users on it, it's vulnerable. People can claim all day that one is better than the other but they all drop like flies during 0-day contests.

No OS can defend itself from a stupid user.
scross
join:2002-09-13
USA

scross to Metatron2008

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said by Metatron2008:

An embedded system is not one where people can modify, which letting people modify can bring even linux systems down.

But coming from somebody who would rather have OSX, a system where they update security patches far less often then their linux counterparts (And get owned in competitions like own to pwn), not to mention a system that has been bogged down to where it doesn't use resources well since lion and mountain lion came out (I have specifically gone thru resources used for all 3, snow leopard was far better at resource management), I am not surprised at your obtuse remarks scross.

If you really wanted a good resourse managed OS you'd say linux.

But hell, your hate of Microsoft also seems to come from what you heard at work that you can't even give details on, that you didn't experience yourself

Which you then call 'first hand knowledge', because obviously, hearing something is the same as first hand

Gee, dude, you really need to go back and reread some of what I wrote! I've never claimed to be a particular fan of Apple products, I said my wife is, and now my daughter wants to be, too. The only thing I really know about OSX is that it is derived from Unix, which has a far better historical record than anything Microsoft has ever produced. And my "hate of Microsoft" comes from having been a Microsoft customer since before you were even born; today I probably wouldn't use their products at all if it weren't for the fact that I sometimes have to for business reasons, so I keep a couple of computers around that run Windows, such as the one I'm on right now.

As far as what I "heard at work", a remarkable amount of what I heard was people saying that they wished they had Macs or Linux boxes at work like they did at home, so that they could just get things done without having to deal with a bunch of BS. The hardcore Windows folks would blow a gasket at this, of course.

I should add that my past experiences with Linux haven't exactly bowled me over, either; in fact, some of them have been downright painful. But I haven't played around with any of the most current releases yet, either. I may or may not do that in the near future.
scross

scross to Metatron2008

Member

to Metatron2008
said by Metatron2008:

The reason why hackers attack the microsft OS is simply due to market share.

This is a BS argument. The reason why hackers attack Microsoft is because it's such an easy target, with a huge attack surface - historically, at least (things MAY be a bit better these days). Maybe a lucrative one, too, today, but I remember the days when hackers did this just to show each other up, not for any particular gain. This crap started well before Microsoft had anything like the market share that it has today, and well before things were interconnected like they are today.

This goes back to the DOS days, in fact, and I remember running around doing emergency virus scans on various DOS PCs because of some presumed drop-dead date for a virus attack. I've never had to do anything like this on any other platform that I've ever worked on.
scross

scross to skeechan

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to skeechan
said by skeechan:

There is no such thing as a secure system, whether connected to the Internet or not, so long as you have users on it, it's vulnerable. People can claim all day that one is better than the other but they all drop like flies during 0-day contests.

No OS can defend itself from a stupid user.

There is no such thing as a perfectly secure system, that's true - just like there's no such thing as a perfectly trustworthy employee, even if it's the CEO (especially if it's the CEO, IMO). But some systems are fundamentally better at security than others, just as some locks are fundamentally better than others. If you're the type that just goes around leaving things unlocked, though, then eventually you'll get what's coming to you!