Topic 'Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?' in forum 'Home Improvement' - dslreports.com

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sat, 13 Oct 2012 18:42:50 EDT

fifty nine posted : In a practical sense, the recept only has two terminals because there are two outlets on it. Remember you can break off the tab and wire both independently.

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sat, 13 Oct 2012 11:04:52 EDT

whizkid3 posted : Not obsessed; just trying to be helpful.
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(Well, maybe obsessed, also.) :o

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Fri, 12 Oct 2012 11:29:35 EDT

alkizmo posted :

said by whizkid3:

What some clerk types into the Home Depot computer would be my last source of information. :o

Ok well next time I will use the term "device" box ;)
I didn't get that term from the store clerks though, I know I read it in this forum before. Finding them in stores with that name simply reinforced the bad habit :O

Btw, you're also not consistent in the term you recommend! :D
»Re: Best way to remove new construction gang box
Outlet box?
Switch box?
WHICH ONE IS IT MAN!! WHICH ONE IS ITTTTTT!!!???!!

You're obsessed ;)
»Re: Gang box recommendation

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Fri, 12 Oct 2012 11:19:15 EDT

whizkid3 posted : Device box would actually be a better name for a 'switch box', because it is for what is officially and 100% properly called 'wiring devices' (switches and receptacles). However, I've never heard that terminology used. What some clerk types into the Home Depot computer would be my last source of information. :o

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Fri, 12 Oct 2012 11:17:34 EDT

alkizmo posted : »www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/stor···N=173172

Device box
Gang device box
Gang loomex

Oddly enough, none of them have the word "switch" unless they are referring to a light switch.

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Fri, 12 Oct 2012 11:07:27 EDT

telco_mtl posted :

said by whizkid3:

said by alkizmo:

Fortunately, out of my 25 receptacles, 20 of them are in PVC gang boxes

Interestingly enough, I have seen them called 'gang' boxes, even by manufacturers. More properly, the term would probably be 'multi-gang' boxes. AT least in this part of the world, the photos show what electricians would call:

1. Gang box (where you store tools for a gang)
2. Switch box (where you mount switches or receptacles)
3. Gang-able switch box (boxes that one can gang together to make multi-gang boxes - i.e. a 2-gang box, 3-gang box).

At least to electricians here, the term 'gang box', only means a large tool box, unless it has a number in front of it.

whizkid after your post i was curious called the facilities sparky and here in canukistan they say the same as you!

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Fri, 12 Oct 2012 10:47:06 EDT

whizkid3 posted :

said by alkizmo:

Fortunately, out of my 25 receptacles, 20 of them are in PVC gang boxes

gang box		switch box
gangable switch box

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Thu, 11 Oct 2012 06:54:48 EDT

alkizmo posted :

said by whizkid3:

the ground wire from the power source be connected directly to the box.

Yeah that's a pain added to the mix.
Fortunately, out of my 25 receptacles, 20 of them are in PVC gang boxes (Those made to be air tight as vapor barrier because they're on external walls).

BTW what I chose to do/am doing is that I'm pigtailing, BUT I only do 2 boxes per evening after work. That way I avoid getting carpal tunnel and cutting corners because I get annoyed.

Steady as she goes!

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Thu, 11 Oct 2012 01:38:44 EDT

nunya posted : I've had the same box of greenies for at least 5 years. I don't use them very often. I don't like the way they lay. I just don't see the advantage.
I am lazy enough to buy pre-fab ground tails though.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Thu, 11 Oct 2012 01:09:53 EDT

whizkid3 posted :

said by fcisler:

I'm not sure if you are using these, but you should be:

»www.idealindustries.com/prodDeta···rounding

Greenies. Leave one of the ground wires long enough to reach the receptacle(s), cut the rest short.

FYI, I was going to post a photo of Greenies the other night; downloaded a photo, and then my PC started slowing down, so I went to bed. You beat me to it.

However, bear in mind one thing about the installation. A careful reading of the NEC (for those in the US), requires (with metal boxes), that the ground wire from the power source be connected directly to the box. From there, your pigtails can go to your wiring devices. This means the long wire in the Greenie, must come from the source and go to the ground screw in the metal box. Running it to a receptacle; or using cutting the source wire short and putting it into the Greenie is not proper.

Anyway, they are great. I always use them, as I am sure most electricians do (even nunya). ;)

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Wed, 10 Oct 2012 11:06:06 EDT

Msradell posted :

said by fcisler:

I've never seen those before they certain look handy!

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Wed, 10 Oct 2012 09:58:59 EDT

MaynardKrebs posted :

said by alkizmo:

said by Speedy Petey:

Sorry, but this is NOT the "proper" way. It is one way.

What is the "proper" way? Or were you just saying that there is no one "proper" way?

The 'proper' way is whatever code says in your jurisdiction. Canadian & US electrical codes differ in some areas of practice.

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Tue, 09 Oct 2012 23:09:04 EDT

bigjoesmith posted : I love that power point!

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Tue, 09 Oct 2012 11:39:56 EDT

fcisler posted : I'm not sure if you are using these, but you should be:

»www.idealindustries.com/prodDeta···rounding

Greenies. Leave one of the ground wires long enough to reach the receptacle(s), cut the rest short. Slide this over the longest one and then tighten.

FWIW, I will always pigtail the line and load. Any devices downstream are unaffected by the outlets. If I am doing two outlets I will either "loop" the wire from the one to the next or use the other set of terminals.

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Tue, 09 Oct 2012 11:03:28 EDT

nunya posted : I'll generally pigtail everything on new work. Since I'm in charge, and all the boxes are appropriately sized, space is not an issue. In retro-work, tiny boxes are quite the norm. Usually it's only in these instances that I will use the device as a "pass through".

My experience has been that a proper wire nut connection will outlive the device.

You'll find the answer your question specifically in NEC 250.148:
(B) Grounding Continuity. The arrangement of grounding connections shall be such that the disconnection or the removal of a receptacle, luminaire (fixture), or other device fed from the box does not interfere with or interrupt the grounding continuity.

I'm sure Canada has a similar rule.

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Tue, 09 Oct 2012 09:26:53 EDT

alkizmo posted :

said by AMD Phreak:

It's a pita jamming the device plus the pigtails back in the box sometimes but it is worth it from a serviceability standpoint.

My issue with pigtailing (aside from being a PITA) is that it's adding another "junction" that can go bad. Plus it's harder to tell if the wires are held properly by the wingnut especially when you're working in a small space (gang box).

If the only real downside is that in the event that a wire gets loose from a receptacle, all receptacles downstream go dark, then I can live with it. Pigtail or not, if a connection gets loose, you will have to go fix the problem.

I'd rather know about it quickly due to multiple receptacles going dark than finding out months later because the faulty receptacle in question is rarely used.

Bonus question: I'd like to identify the downstream wires in gang boxes in case I wanted to split a circuit into two. Is there a color code for that? If there isn't any universal color code or "method", what color code could I use (for myself) that wouldn't bring confusion? I'm guessing black tape on the black wire and white on neutral could avoid confusion and still be a hint for me, but it might already be a code for something else :p

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Mon, 08 Oct 2012 18:55:02 EDT

AMD Phreak posted : I have been replacing outlets here as I can, switches too. I pigtail the devices with 14 str and then cut out the old backstabbed device and wire nut in the new. The grounds from the build are secured together with a special crimp connection ( the name escapes me at this time) so they are permanent. This ensures disconnection of a device doesn't interrupt ground down the line. Same as it was discussed above.

It's a pita jamming the device plus the pigtails back in the box sometimes but it is worth it from a serviceability standpoint.
--
"Above all, I would teach him to tell the truth. Truth-telling, I have found, is the key to responsible citizenship. The thousands of criminals I have seen in 40 years of law enforcement have had one thing in common: Every single one was a liar."
J.E.H.

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sun, 07 Oct 2012 21:21:09 EDT

Jack_in_VA posted : I was doing an edit sorry

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sun, 07 Oct 2012 21:19:18 EDT

Zach 58 posted :

said by Jack_in_VA:

They don't have to be pigtailed on non MWBC circuits but:

the neutrals must be pigtailed on MWBC installation.

300.13 Mechanical and Electrical Continuity — Conductors
(B) Device Removal In multiwire branch circuits, the continuity of a grounded conductor shall not depend on device connections such as lampholders, receptacles, and so forth, where the removal of such devices would interrupt the continuity.

Posts and edits must have crossed. Since I don't usually feed-through, I had to find the text. ;)
--
Zach

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sun, 07 Oct 2012 21:10:59 EDT

Jack_in_VA posted :

said by Zach 58:

said by alkizmo:

said by Speedy Petey:

Sorry, but this is NOT the "proper" way. It is one way.

What is the "proper" way? Or were you just saying that there is no one "proper" way?

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:56:31 EDT

Zach 58 posted :

said by alkizmo:

said by Speedy Petey:

Sorry, but this is NOT the "proper" way. It is one way.

What is the "proper" way? Or were you just saying that there is no one "proper" way?

If the circuit in question is NOT a MWBC, either feeding through the device and pig-tailing is generally acceptable. Some AHJ's require and some ECs prefer to pig-tail. For MWBCs, feeding through the device isn't allowed on the grounded conductors. Obviously, in the case of GFCI receptacles, you have no choice but to feed through if you are also protecting loads down-stream. ;)

Edit to add:

300.13 Mechanical and Electrical Continuity - Conductors

(B) Device Removal. In multiwire branch circuits, the continuity of a grounded conductor shall not depend on device connections such as lampholders, receptacles, and so forth, where the removal of such devices would interrupt the continuity.

I always tail where possible.
--
Zach

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sun, 07 Oct 2012 19:44:12 EDT
alkizmo posted :
said by Speedy Petey:
Sorry, but this is NOT the "proper" way. It is one way.

What is the "proper" way? Or were you just saying that there is no one "proper" way?

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sun, 07 Oct 2012 19:02:23 EDT
Speedy Petey posted :
said by John Galt:
The 'proper way' is to pigtail all conductors prior to connection to the device.
Sorry, but this is NOT the "proper" way. It is one way.

said by John Galt:
In my jurisdiction that is mandatory, even though the Code requires it only on MWBCs.

Is this in writing somewhere? Or do they just like to see it?

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sun, 07 Oct 2012 17:21:32 EDT
alkizmo posted :
said by John Galt:
The 'proper way' is to pigtail all conductors prior to connection to the device.

In my jurisdiction that is mandatory, even though the Code requires it only on MWBCs.

I don't deny the advantage of pigtailing. I'll give it a shot, see if I can tolerate the extra carpal tunnel.

Out of curiosity, what does your jurisdiction say about connecting receptacles downstream of a GFCI? Can't pigtail the load side of a GFCI right?

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sun, 07 Oct 2012 16:29:56 EDT
John Galt posted : The 'proper way' is to pigtail all conductors prior to connection to the device.

In my jurisdiction that is mandatory, even though the Code requires it only on MWBCs.

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sun, 07 Oct 2012 12:41:50 EDT
alkizmo posted : Jack, I wish they were back entry with screw terminals, but I needed all tamper proof receptacles in bulk. The choice was limited so I got stuck with screw terminals + backstabs(which I won't use).

Same thing for the self-grounding receptacles. There wasn't that option in store.

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sun, 07 Oct 2012 12:39:15 EDT
alkizmo posted : Now yes I am using the device as a junction.
I am aware of the downside in terms of loose terminals causing all receptacles down the line to stop, but I'd be very familiar with the wirin to fix it.

Anyway I could pig tail the standard receptacles if you guys convince me to do so (I stopped after 2 receptacles as I had to leave to do other things.)

However my main issue was with the gfci I put at the beginning of the circuit to protect all receptacles down stream. D
Those you gotta use as a junction and yet still force to pig tail the ground when you have already very little space left in the box (due to gfci size)

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sun, 07 Oct 2012 10:29:26 EDT
anon posted : I never pigtail a receptacle when there are back wire terminal pockets available.

In fact, in the industrial control cabinet world, 99.9999% of wire connections are made on screw clamp terminal blocks.

Wire nuts are virtually never used!

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sun, 07 Oct 2012 07:54:02 EDT
Speedy Petey posted :
said by Msradell:
The only reason I can think of is that there are 2 hot/neutral terminals because you have the ability to remove the jumper and have two separate circuits on the receptacle. If you do that then you only have one screw terminal for the hot and neutral.

THIS!

A single (simplex) receptacle only has one of each screw.

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sat, 06 Oct 2012 23:01:06 EDT
ArgMeMatey posted : I usually use all stranded wire & metal boxes. I like the Ideal Term-A-Nut pigtails with #10 lugs.

For multiple device boxes, I had bought a box of 3-tailed jumpers that all had ring lugs on a single 10-32 green hex screw. Two tails had spade lugs on the other end, for attaching to devices, and one was just stripped fine stranded wire for attaching to the raceway grounding conductor. Can't remember who made those.

The prospect of putting about 25 backwired spec grade receptacles in 3x2x2.5 boxes with 12 AWG conductors certainly cured me of any desire to add grounding jumpers to self-grounding devices.
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Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sat, 06 Oct 2012 22:41:58 EDT
PeeWee posted : Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

To eliminate any cause of failure of grounding circuit other than the wiring itself.
--
Iphone. Helping computer illiteracy become popular since 2007

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sat, 06 Oct 2012 18:32:55 EDT
Zach 58 posted :
said by whizkid3:
So there are no ground loops. ;)

Metal boxes or plastic? If they are metal, have you thought about using self-grounding receptacles? Then you wouldn't have to run a ground wire from the box to the receptacle.

No ground loops!! :D

Try as I might, my OCD keeps me from eliminating the damn grounding jumper when using self-grounding devices. ;)
--
Zach

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sat, 06 Oct 2012 18:28:56 EDT
Zach 58 posted :
said by John Galt:
So you're not tailing out the hots & neutrals, and using the device as a junction?

I guess that single ground terminal is working to prevent the OP from making the same mistake with the equipment ground. ;)
--
Zach

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sat, 06 Oct 2012 18:21:05 EDT
John Galt posted : So you're not tailing out the hots & neutrals, and using the device as a junction?

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sat, 06 Oct 2012 18:12:32 EDT
whizkid3 posted : So there are no ground loops. ;)

Metal boxes or plastic? If they are metal, have you thought about using self-grounding receptacles? Then you wouldn't have to run a ground wire from the box to the receptacle.

Re: Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sat, 06 Oct 2012 18:08:35 EDT
Msradell posted : The only reason I can think of is that there are 2 hot/neutral terminals because you have the ability to remove the jumper and have two separate circuits on the receptacle. If you do that then you only have one screw terminal for the hot and neutral.

Why only 1 ground terminal and 2 hot/neutral on receptacles?

Sat, 06 Oct 2012 17:54:49 EDT
alkizmo posted : I'm wiring 25 new receptacles over 5 circuits and god damn if there was a second ground terminal everything would be dandy to run in series the receptacles.

I never noticed that "issue" until now (Where I'm not just replacing existing receptacles).

Is there a reason they make us pig-tail the ground and ONLY the ground?

edit - I think I have figured out why (Though it's only "thinking"). If someone were to remove a receptacle and wing-nut the wires together, they could forget/not bother to wing-nut the ground wires as well and thus you'd have no ground down the line.