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garabed

@verizon.net
reply to NormanS

Re: [DSL] Over 3 months of Issues with no solution

Funny they never asked me this question , This is what I was able to come up with

noise margin downstream: 6 db
output power upstream: 12 db
attenuation downstream: 58 db

noise margin upstream: 0 db
output power downstream: 17 db
attenuation upstream: 0 db

mitpatterson
Premium
join:2012-09-17
Toledo, OH
That doesn't look good, is that at the NID or at its normal location? those margins should be both at 6db or higher(10 db is better)


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to garabed
From the AT&T Southeast (former Bellsouth) forum:

»AT&T Southeast Forum FAQ »How do I check modem stats & event logs? What do the numbers mean?

Sorry, I should have included that in the first place. If those readings are from the test jack in the NID, you may be two far out to expect much more than 1.5M service. I was just able to get 3M at 51 dB attenuation from AT&T.

Also from the AT&T Southeast forum (those Bellsouth guys were pretty sharp):

»AT&T Southeast Forum FAQ »How to check modem stats, synch rates & speeds from test jack at the NID.

Trouble is, Verizon seems to be even less interested in supporting DSL than AT&T is. Still, maybe somebody from DSLX might be able to prod Verizon into action.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


dslx_nick
Premium,VIP
join:2011-12-24
Chatsworth, CA
kudos:28

1 recommendation

Hey Garabed. We DO do troubleshooting via email when needed, and have sent you information via email in your tickets, but generally we do try to troubleshoot via phone because it's much faster for us to find out what exactly is going on and get it resolved for you. Furthermore, most of our customers have line phone lines, and for the ones that have dryloop, those customers usually have at least a cellphone; it's very rare for a customer to not have ANY phone number available. While we recognize that some customers may have a secondary form of internet access, such as an iPhone, with which to check their email - again, that usually indicates phone access. Extremely rarely, we run across a customer that has no phone number available at all, and only has internet access at another location where there is no phone available (such as a library or at work, for example)... and while we can TRY to do troubleshooting by such means, it's usually pretty futile when dealing with sync-related issues.

After all, we can't really say, "Ok, now turn on the modem and give me a minute to run a test here... Thanks. What are the lights on the modem showing now? Got it. Now, turn off the modem and let me run another test... done. Now let's move the modem to the other jack and let's see if we're getting different readings there." while you're not even at the location.

On the 27th one of our technicians did send you an email confirming that Verizon was able to get good sync to the NID (phone box) outside your location, but there seems to be an inside wiring issue.

To provide the exact numbers recorded by the last on-site dispatch tech:
Readings at the NID (inside wiring disconnected):
Downstream Noise Margin: 9.0
Upstream Noise Margin: 10.1

Downstream Transmit Signal Power: 17.2
Upstream Transmit Signal Power: 12.2

Downstream Attenuation: 44.1
Upstream Attenuation: 29.5

Downstream Bitrate: 3359
Upstream Bitrate: 863

Downstream Max Attainable Bitrate: 4056
Upstream Max Attainable Bitrate: 1071

Downstream Relative Capacity: 82%
Upstream Relative Capacity: 80%

Readings to the modem (inside wiring connected):
Downstream Noise Margin: 6.0
Upstream Noise Margin: 10.7

Downstream Transmit Signal Power: 18.3
Upstream Transmit Signal Power: 12.2

Downstream Attenuation: 57.5
Upstream Attenuation: 29.8

Downstream Bitrate: 2392
Upstream Bitrate: 863

Downstream Max Attainable Bitrate: 2414
Upstream Max Attainable Bitrate: 1079

Downstream Relative Capacity: 99%
Upstream Relative Capacity: 79%

As you can see, the upstream doesn't seem to be having issues, but the downstream is running into significant trouble crossing the leg from the NID to your modem. This indicates either a problem with your inside wiring, or your modem itself.

We generally don't ask customers to give us the above information; we usually collect it ourselves, during the tests we perform (the ones that you had to go through several times). After all, any customer can follow "Ok, now turn the modem on and give me a minute to run a test... alright, done." but not so many are tech-savvy enough to log into their modem and pull out their line readings, and that's even assuming their model of modem supports displaying such statistics.

That said, if you're able to extract line reading data, then by all means, we can troubleshoot by this written medium, rather than by phone. Please connect your modem to the NID outside, and see what line readings you're getting out there. Then, right away (don't wait like hours or days, do it within a matter of minutes), re-connect the modem to your inside jack and see what line readings you're getting in there. By comparing the line readings you're getting out at the NID to the line readings you're getting inside, that should let us determine if the problem is the inside wiring, or the modem itself. If you're seeing a significant difference between outside line readings and inside line readings, then I'd strongly suggest testing each inside jack in turn, to see if any of them are getting better readings than the primary jack you've been using.


Garabed

@verizon.net
Nick,

Thanks for your response , unfortunately the only phone I have at home is the VOIP. I threw my cell phone away after being on call 24X7 for 7 years!!! Aside from making this a pain in the @#$ it has been great I get the whole troubleshooting bit but like I said this has been going on for over 3 months and going over the same script really is annoying.

What I would like to point out is that the information you have given me in this one email is far more information that I have received in the last three months.

I did run a new wire once but I did not try the line test. Now that I have new equipment I will give this a try.

Thanks again


dslx_nick
Premium,VIP
join:2011-12-24
Chatsworth, CA
kudos:28
Glad to help!


Garabed

@verizon.net
So I finally got the time to try your suggestion out. I took my router out to the d-mark, luckily there was power. I jacked the line and plugged in my router. I ran a few speed tests and the best I was able to get was 0.64 download, .47 upload, 20.8% packet loss, 720 ms latencey and 850ms of jitter. I was willing to accept it was my issue but now I can only say .....


Garabed

@verizon.net
Here are the line stats also

DSL Line Status:
noise margin upstream: 0 db
output power downstream: 17 db
attenuation upstream: 0 db

noise margin downstream: 6 db
output power upstream: 12 db
attenuation downstream: 58 db


dslx_nick
Premium,VIP
join:2011-12-24
Chatsworth, CA
kudos:28
If you're getting those same readings out at the NID, then that points to it being a faulty modem.


Garabed

@verizon.net
I will try another modem


Garabed

@verizon.net
reply to dslx_nick
I replaced my modem and unfortunatly this modem does not allow me the functionality to test the dsl line statistics the megapath results are consistent with my last modem.

Packet loss 28.4% Latencey 780ms Jitter 1141.

Am I to believe this modem has the same problem as the previous. I have tested both at the NID and Inside with same results. Comon now DSL extreme this is too much.

I am being held hostage by lies and excuses. Do you really need $30.00 a month that badly?


dslx_nick
Premium,VIP
join:2011-12-24
Chatsworth, CA
kudos:28
Not trying to hold you hostage, nor lie to you for that matter. I'm just trying to troubleshoot an issue without actually having you on the phone... which really isn't easy, since there's a significant time lag between each test I have you perform.

You can see the line readings I posted above. As you can see for yourself, there was a clear discrepancy between what the field tech got testing to the NID with your modem and inside wiring disconnected, vs. what he got testing with your modem and inside wiring connected. That information indicates a problem with inside wiring or modem.

You have tried testing out at the phone box, but are getting poor readings out there, comparable to what you got at another date from inside. That information indicates the problem is not the inside wiring.

If it is a problem of either A or B, and we have eliminated A, that leaves only B. So logically, it looks like a problem with B.... and if A is the inside wiring, that leaves B as the modem.

But you have tried another modem, and that seems to be giving the same behavior as the first modem... which indicates it is not B, either.

So we have apparently eliminated everything as a possible cause of the problem... which means at least one of those tests must be inaccurate, or we have overlooked something.

If the numbers we got from the Verizon field rep's tests were somehow in error, that would be one possible explanation. It's *extremely* unlikely that the Verizon rep somehow found a way to falsify his test readings (In order to test with the modem and inside wiring connected he had to call the MCO to run a co-op test, which would mean there would have to be multiple Verizon personnel 'in on it'... and since he gets a random rep when he calls into the MCO, that'd basically mean a TON of people would have to be in on it... /tinfoilhat). However, it is possible that you have an INTERMITTENT issue where the signal is going up and down (like a wave), and he happened to catch it on a peak when testing to the outside, and a valley when testing to the inside. In other words, poor luck and bad timing. I can set up another dispatch request to have another Verizon tech come out and double-check the readings.

It's also possible that something could have been wrong with the test you performed out at the NID. Perhaps the inside wiring didn't get completely disconnected (is there an alarm system?), or perhaps the power cord you're using isn't supplying enough power to the modem, or perhaps the phone cord could have been bad? Without actually being there or at least having you on the phone to double-check these points, I can but admit the possibility and ask. Did you change the phone cord connecting the modem to the NID? Did you change the power cord plugged into the modem? Have you tried a different extension cord (if any) to help the power cord reach? Have you tried plugging the modem into a different power outlet? Each of these are rarer causes for poor signals, but in the face of an apparent contradiction, we need to double-check every detail. If you haven't checked any of these points, this would be a good time to try double-checking them.

It's also possible that the second modem is bad. Possible, but admittedly quite unlikely, especially since you're getting such consistent poor readings. I'd believe a problem with a faulty power cord before I'd believe that two different models of modems are failing with almost identical readings.

So, at this point: I do recommend you check the things I mentioned two paragraphs up, regarding testing at the NID. I would also like to send another dispatch tech out. I assume your NID is accessible from the street, no dogs or locked gates or anything that would prevent tech access?
Expand your moderator at work


garabed

@verizon.net
reply to dslx_nick

Re: [DSL] Over 3 months of Issues with no solution

I want to thank you for your time. At this point I am over DSL Extreme. This has been going on for what 3 to 4 months now. Talking with your billing department they want me to pay $250 dollars to get out of a contract for which almost half of the time the service has not worked. I tell you guys what, Ill bring my proof and you can bring yours and we will let a small claims judge decide.

Its not like my post is the first where DSL Extreme has provided horrible service. Aside from you nick DSL Extreme telephone support has got to be one of the worst I have called over 20 times and the script never changed, how many times can you do the same thing with the same results. I guess its just your way of wasting peoples time and money.

Buyer beware, the reason its so cheap is because the suck. spend the extra few dollars and get service with someone who can support what they sell.

Ill post back with the results of the small claims suit so others wont have to go through 4 months of crappy dsl service.


dslx_nick
Premium,VIP
join:2011-12-24
Chatsworth, CA
kudos:28
Yes, if you decide to break contract then you get charged the $250 ETF. This is because if you do so, we have to break our contract with Verizon, and they charge us the $250 ETF, so we pass this charge onto you. It has nothing to do with trying to waste your time nor money; frankly, having to process ETF is a waste of our time too, and we don't make any profit off it either (we just break even). We'd much rather get you back online with no problems like most of our customers.

You say you've called in 'over 20 times' and you've received the exact same troubleshooting answers each time? Consistency is an indication of good, methodical troubleshooting. If you had called in 20 times and kept getting random answers pulled out of a hat, THEN I'd be worried about the quality of the technicians. Two plus two does not equal five. How many times can you do the same thing with the same results? If everything is done correctly, you should ALWAYS get the same results.

Science and experience dictate that if you drop an object, it should fall and strike the ground; if you drop an object and it does NOT fall, then that doesn't completely invalidate everything you know, but rather means there is some other piece of information you have failed to take into account. Similarly, our experience with troubleshooting gives us a very clearly defined set of tests with clearly defined conclusions based on the results of those tests - and if your tests are providing 'impossible' results, then that means that either one or more of the tests were performed incorrectly, or there is some other piece of information we have failed to take into account. In recognition of this, I've pointed out some additional testing you can perform, as well as offered to have another technician dispatched out to re-test on-site. If you don't want to take me up on my offer, then that's up to you, but there's not much else I can do.


GARABED

@verizon.net
I don't think I am breaking the contract, DSL extreme is not providing me the service I signed up for. You say it is me I say it is you. I can provide my tests that say it is you and you have Verizon's info that says it is my inside wiring. I can say I have spent days at sites and I literally mean days with Verizon blaming it on the customer. If it wasn't for me refusing to leaving the site until the issue was resolved then I would have gotten the same treatment I am getting from DSL Extreme. I just don't have the time to spend doing that, I pay for the service and I expect it to work I have done everything from rewiring to testing at the NID I always get the same result. The last Verizon tech that was here didn't even want to talk to me when I caught him outside and specifically asked him what the issue was so I could show him what I was seeing and we could compare the two.

This issue did not happen out of no where, it specifically started after Verizon visited my location to correct a different issue I was having and unless they did something to my wiring it is too coincidental that this happened. For all three pairs of my inside wiring to go bad doesn't make sense.

I don't know what you expect from me after 3 months of this nonsense. Send someone again to retest hopefully they will want to answer a question this time.


dslx_nick
Premium,VIP
join:2011-12-24
Chatsworth, CA
kudos:28
Actually, if there's a problem with how the inside wiring is connected to the phone box, that could certainly cause all three jacks to simultaneously return errors. An unfiltered phone plugged into one jack will cause problems for a DSL modem plugged into any other jack on the same line, for example.

I'm submitting a request for another dispatch for you. As I asked about earlier, we do need to make sure that the technician has access to the phone box, so please make sure there are no locked gates, dogs, etc. that would prevent access to the phone box.


dslx_nick
Premium,VIP
join:2011-12-24
Chatsworth, CA
kudos:28
We had a port change carried out last night, have been monitoring... seeing good sync now, 3155 down/861 up. How does the connection seem to be working on your end now?